Homura's much less dangerous than Oriko here- especially since we're her friend and have worked ourselves into a good relationship with Madoka and her immediate circle of friends- but honestly, we a)shouldn't talk about feathers unless it seems immediately relevant or until this mess is over, b)try not to make it seem like we're to blame.Sabrina-Homura and Sabrina-Oriko are both contradictory, complex.
I've already touched on Homura, up there somewhere; my view's that, while she would cut us more slack than most, at least in the short term, she's still spent the last few subjective years stewing in bad-crazy and is uncomfortably used to shooting her friends. She also doesn't seem to bring much to the table in terms of likely information payoff.
I think the negative outweighs the positive here, and we should compartmentalize her out.
But, hey, your take may differ.
Oriko - we know that she can, under some circumstances, kill to save the world; we also know that this one hasn't, and starting is difficult.
We know that she will kill to avoid disasters she foresees; we know that she cannot get an unambiguous 'will end world' read on us, whether we're actually likely to or not, because we're us.
We also know that - all else being equal - her favoured outcome requires us to be alive, the whole 'changing fate' thing.
Finally, she is possibly unique in actually having some insight into feathers.
I think this favors us; I think it's reasonably safe to come clean with her.
Again, big judgment call.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Who can tell, with witches? Besides Future!us, I mean.
...what is going to happen to Walpurgisnacht when we Dewitch her? Are we going to have one really big mind-hive-y girl, or just a bunch of magical girls who are all really familiar with each other and have elements of matching themes, and one girl is seemingly in charge of their social group, a la a watered down version of this?
Last edited:
Well going by one theory, we get an amnesiac girl with white hair and blue eyes...
More seriously, my money's on "a bunch".
CompassJimbo
Where’s Your North?
- Location
- The former Rubber Capital of the World
If Mami hasn't been witchbombed by that point, de-witching Walpy will.
- Location
- spinning
@Onmur:
I do strongly suspect that Oriko initially conceded because of the threat we made.
However, she's had plenty of time to kill herself and Kirika after that, so it is not like it not being a deadman's switch has an impact.
This also means that even though we forced her down, that only has enforcing effect as long as we're present; given our non-student status it'd be trivial to get a moment without our presence to try to take care of Homura or Madoka.
I agree that Oriko wants to help the world.
That's also why I don't think she would stop if left on her own. Sheer inertia would keep her working together with rest of team.
And as long as Oriko is not the one killing us, I also have more faith in Homura - I'd expect her to keep them on a shorter leash, but if she really thought like that right now, she would kill them without our say-so.
@FlatlineAskari: Hm, true on information payoff. I want to reveal it because I like Homura, I have measure of trust in her decisions and I want her to be safe. Not entirely rational, but on the latter:
Also, if rebellion ever happens, fridge brillance fun, though that is more of a reason why not.
Furthermore, from gamist perspective: "Winning" without Homs sure is possible, but I'd think it'd be harder than "winning" without metaknowledge or limbs, thus I don't really consider such scenarios anywhere near optimal and don't pursue them in depth. (though, practically speaking, perhaps we should put some armour on our soul gem anyway).
I do strongly suspect that Oriko initially conceded because of the threat we made.
However, she's had plenty of time to kill herself and Kirika after that, so it is not like it not being a deadman's switch has an impact.
This also means that even though we forced her down, that only has enforcing effect as long as we're present; given our non-student status it'd be trivial to get a moment without our presence to try to take care of Homura or Madoka.
I agree that Oriko wants to help the world.
That's also why I don't think she would stop if left on her own. Sheer inertia would keep her working together with rest of team.
And as long as Oriko is not the one killing us, I also have more faith in Homura - I'd expect her to keep them on a shorter leash, but if she really thought like that right now, she would kill them without our say-so.
@FlatlineAskari: Hm, true on information payoff. I want to reveal it because I like Homura, I have measure of trust in her decisions and I want her to be safe. Not entirely rational, but on the latter:
Also, if rebellion ever happens, fridge brillance fun, though that is more of a reason why not.
Furthermore, from gamist perspective: "Winning" without Homs sure is possible, but I'd think it'd be harder than "winning" without metaknowledge or limbs, thus I don't really consider such scenarios anywhere near optimal and don't pursue them in depth. (though, practically speaking, perhaps we should put some armour on our soul gem anyway).
There's probably an omake here about Sabrina trying to hide it from Mami.
Last edited:
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Possible.
But Sabrina is... a promise. A promise that something better can be achieved than what she can predict. After all, her precognitive abilities didn't work against our no-fate-ness (not that we outmatched her; we did have that lucky lucky roll on the last time Homura went out to search for her, else we might still be fighting her), so we're her only shot at getting a better outcome.
And for all that we apologized, and that I do believe Oriko thinks she was in the wrong and is trying to do better, I don't think we can completely erase the fact that we held that threat over her head.
So, we're kind of the carrot and the stick. Why would she work with Homura and Mami? What do they offer her? They can't change fate. They also can't do anything to her that she really fears. What incentive does she have to work with them? I mean, she could try. But for how long? It's not liek they'll welcome her with open arms.
And Homura's entire reason for not killing Oriko is that basically we're getting better reasults than her, and we think we're better off with Oriko alive than dead. She's trying things our way. Without us in the picture, the only way left is her way.
The problem would be if we accidentally convince Oriko that we turned on her (if we're the one that causes feathers).
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Walpurgisnacht only has one Grief Seed, and thus seems to have only one soul. Dewitching her will probably create a moe anthropomorphization of her that doesn't correlate to any pre-existing Magical Girl.
I thought we had a theory that physical objects are ejected when the barrier collapses, so someone or something could have visited the barrier while we were zoned out and left the feather behind.
We know from the vanishing bodies in barriers that isn't the case, though.
I really can't see how that would be possible.
I mean, if Sabrina wanted someone dead she wouldn't be playing mind games; and if she's concerned Sabrina's letting whatever it is in by making barriers then Sabrina just has to stop making barriers until they get to the bottom of things.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
It's not a huge concern, but Oriko's enemy, more than Sabrina was always 'feathers'. Considering how 'feathers' seems to work outside linear time, it's entirely possible future!Sabrina could be 'feathers'.
We joke about it, and we know we're not gonna turn on everybody, but how does Oriko know this?
If we tell her we're making the damned things, we're basically taking both of Oriko's main enemies this timeline and mashing them togeher.
I think Oriko's working with Sabrina basically out of faith. That Sabrina can do better than her, and will help her achieve something important. But that's just faith. Let's not undermine it.
... No, Oriko's explicitly stated that Sabina and Homura are the ones that will deal with in oncoming threat. This is something that she has actually seen. Her faith in her visions might have been shaken, but it's still there.
Seriously, to me it's as simple as saying something along the lines of 'First barrier I made didn't do anything when I dismissed it, second one spat out this feather; I'm not making any more until we get to the bottom of this'.
Seriously, to me it's as simple as saying something along the lines of 'First barrier I made didn't do anything when I dismissed it, second one spat out this feather; I'm not making any more until we get to the bottom of this'.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I'm re-reading and I don't get that. Sabrina working with Homura can change the course of destiny, going by Oriko.
Also going by Oriko, Sabrina will be the one to end things, one way... or the other.
Kai Merah
Hound Hearted Hedonist
- Location
- Somewhere in the corners of my imagination
[x] 'Lement
This is an unusual situation, where knowledge of feathers is pertinent to Sayaka's rescue. We need to be more honest with our allies and trust them not to immediately turn on us for circumstances beyond our control.
Given the time frame of Oriko's changed visions, it is quite probable that feathers has something to do with Oriko's changed vision, and the fact that Sayaka is currently in danger. It would be irresponsible of us to not bring this info up to our allies right now since it has become relevant. Yes, we don't know much, and can't share much, but what little we know, we should tell. Otherwise, if we go rescue Sayaka, and a feathers-related situation does pop up, or our allies are insufficiently wary of any feather-related occurrence, then it's our fault for not making the dangers plain before we go.
Also, I am wondering if Oriko called us over basically just because she's freaking out and wants us, her hope, to go over and personally reassure her that yes, it is still possible to get a good end. I'm fairly sure we can mostly avoid eroding her confidence in us if we say something like, "About the time when your vision changed, I found this as we emerged from my barrier. Any thoughts on it? I'm thinking I won't be doing anything else with barriers until we get this solved."
This is an unusual situation, where knowledge of feathers is pertinent to Sayaka's rescue. We need to be more honest with our allies and trust them not to immediately turn on us for circumstances beyond our control.
Given the time frame of Oriko's changed visions, it is quite probable that feathers has something to do with Oriko's changed vision, and the fact that Sayaka is currently in danger. It would be irresponsible of us to not bring this info up to our allies right now since it has become relevant. Yes, we don't know much, and can't share much, but what little we know, we should tell. Otherwise, if we go rescue Sayaka, and a feathers-related situation does pop up, or our allies are insufficiently wary of any feather-related occurrence, then it's our fault for not making the dangers plain before we go.
Also, I am wondering if Oriko called us over basically just because she's freaking out and wants us, her hope, to go over and personally reassure her that yes, it is still possible to get a good end. I'm fairly sure we can mostly avoid eroding her confidence in us if we say something like, "About the time when your vision changed, I found this as we emerged from my barrier. Any thoughts on it? I'm thinking I won't be doing anything else with barriers until we get this solved."
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
How, pray tell, could knowing we have a magical feather help them prepare for a confrontation with the 'feather threat'?
We really don't know anything about it. It's like some cops going to break in a house to arrest somebody and one of the cops stops and warns everybody that the suspect is known to collect bottlecaps. How does that help? Maybe there's a 'bottlecap killer' in a file somewhere deep in the police's archives, but it's not on hand.
If we tell them that 'feathers' might be involved, how does that help? Will they prepare in case we get pointy feathers thrown at us?
I mean, we're not going for a walk in the park. Homura and Mami are well ready for a fight. Putting them on edge helps how?
- Location
- spinning
You're not alone. I think Oriko is scared her magic is broken and maybe even her wish for meaning of her life being meaningless.
At least feathers is something she knows, so there's that.
Also, you're one of several people mentioning that idea...And it is good, adding.
EDIT: btw, got another thought on who "Feathers" might be (that conveniently justifies warnings, too) :
Another precog. For meta-reasons in writing, Firn has two precogs mess with each other. This one however can see the long-term benefits of shoving feathers in her wake even if she doesn't understand why, so she does it.
Kind of a long shot, though.
Last edited:
Kai Merah
Hound Hearted Hedonist
- Location
- Somewhere in the corners of my imagination
The problem is, the threat of Feather is too nebulous to plan against effectively. That said, we need to be on the lookout for more info about feathers. Feathers could do literally anything. I'm not expecting an actual attack by feathers, but if perhaps, our allies saw a feather acting unusually... Or perhaps not even anything to do with actual feathers. We need to warn our allies to be on the lookout for anomalies. Any anomalies. The Sayaka-rescue itself is already feathers-related, so anything unusual we spot while on the mission could have something to do with feathers, whether or not there's a physical feather involved.
I'm saying I don't know how relevant our knowledge of feathers may be to the current situation, since we really don't know much, but the fact that it is relevant can't be disputed. Therefore, it behooves us to tell our allies what we know, just in case.
We should follow up what she actually said. Ask her if the situation resembles the one she said she prevented and in what ways. Ask her if the impossibility of the future changing is the only reason she called us over. Ask her what else about the situation couldn't be discussed by telepathy. Ask her how that affects what we plan to do. Tell her that we think that rescuing Sayaka takes priority over discussing possible causes at the moment. Not every one of these items exactly as worded, but you get the idea
Then we can play twenty questions over our intervention plan.
Not listening to what people are actually saying and instead going off talking about our own interpretation of the situation is exactly what was problematic about several earlier conversations.
And yes, hyperbole aside, taking a moment to stop Oriko freaking out might be good.
She's freaking out. Slowly, in an Oriko-ish way, but.
Not for a setting change, but for actions...
Muramasa
Best Girl
I'm at work and can't change my vote right now. If you can put your suggestion in vote, format, I'll take a look at it when I get home.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Sorry, was that a joke? Kind of lost it there.
"Those look suspicious."
"The... birds?"
"The feathers! Look at them! Are they even supposed to do that?..."
That aside, telling them about the feather would be useful if any of us knew what it might imply as far as combat threats go. I wouldn't be opposed to telling Homura and Mami to generally be on the look out for long pinioned black feathers, as long as Oriko doesn't hear about it just yet, and we don't tell them about the actual feather until after this is over.
Point. Would that go before or after grief cleansing?
Kai Merah
Hound Hearted Hedonist
- Location
- Somewhere in the corners of my imagination
After. Probably works better that way.
And I was thinking more like, I dunno, if a feather was on the ground, swirling around like it got caught in an eddy, except there's no wind. I don't think this knowledge will have a combat application honestly. I mean, if it gets to a fight, our allies know what to do in a fight. This is more... Be wary of any strange feathers you see, or anything else strange you see, may not be safe to touch it, let me know immediately so I can gather the sample in my grief and hopefully make sure it's harmless.
Yes, unless that. But even when Oriko's visions are blocked, she can still see feathers. I suspect that it is the person who has the feathers that provides the blocking. And we just have the one, so it wouldn't be able to block much, even if the Feather does have a magical anti-precog blocking ability. Still, it's something that we could test easily enough.
I do say that most likely explanation was that the feather was dropped by the originator of the "Feathers" effect (though I cannot say whether it was due to trolling or as a warning or an accident). It's important to note that the Feather does not feel witchy. We have never created anything that does not feel witchy. And our previous creation of a barrier in the exact same location with the exact same technique did not produce a Feather.
The feather may have been dropped by the originator of the "Feathers" effect in response to our actions, but we ourselves did not create it.
Maybe the barrier spits things out. Maybe it destroys things. We cannot confirm one way or another until we test it.
Stupid cryptic oracles. We need her to give us a straight answer on what she means by this.
We've never had any problems dealing with witches before. If this is a normal witch, then Homura and Mami should expect it to be a walk in the park as long as we arrive before Sayaka gets hurt - and since we're in time stop right now, that won't be a problem. But "Feathers" changes things. There are unknown dangers. The Feather doesn't identify or solve any of these dangers on its own, but it does allow us to work together with Oriko and discuss Oriko's knowledge so that we can work together with her to figure out what potential dangers might face us in the upcoming battle.
It's an interesting idea, and I would have thought it was a fairly plausible explanation... up until the point where we actually found one of the Feathers. I doubt that precog interference would cause actual physical effects.
It's not the Feathers themselves that are dangerous (most likely), but the person who was the origin of the Feathers.
Last edited: