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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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@Ugolino , since you keep bringing this up,

Having Sayaka and Hitomi talk is great. I support that fully. But having Sayaka and Hitomi talk is separate to what we are trying to accomplish right this minute. Slow the fuck down and take things step by step. The first step is to make sure that there aren't huge secrets hanging over any potential conversation. The second step is making sure Hitomi knows what the issues are (indebtedness, mutual crush, possibility of a contract). The third step is to have them talk to each other.
 
I'm not even sure how the conversation's moved onto that point, but as you just wrote, one follows the other and there's no reason to leave it out from when we actually tell Hitomi. Them talking should be part of the follow-up to us actually telling her about these things.

Torgamous said:
Your vote really doesn't get that across.
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...You're leaping on that? That's just our approach to the actual hospital visit and has nothing to do with the rest of the vote's intent. It's clearly completely different.
 
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SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
-[x] Leave once our welcome is up, to give Sayaka and Kyouske some alone time. Subtly enlist Madoka to help push others this direction, if necessary.
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They might not have visited as frequently as Sayaka, but Madoka and Hitomi are also his friends. I'm not comfortable moving to clear them out.
Ugolino said:
I'm not even sure how the conversation's moved onto that point, but as you just wrote, one follows the other and there's no reason to leave it out from when we actually tell Hitomi. Them talking should be part of the follow-up to us actually telling her about these things.
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Sayaka's issues with Hitomi are not directly about magic. Her apartment could've burned down in a mundane fire and she'd be in the same position. The magic talk is necessary before but does not directly flow into the debt talk.
 
Torgamous said:
They might not have visited as frequently as Sayaka, but Madoka and Hitomi are also his friends. I'm not comfortable moving to clear them out.

Sayaka's issues with Hitomi are not directly about magic. Her apartment could've burned down in a mundane fire and she'd be in the same position. The magic talk is necessary before but does not directly flow into the debt talk.
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How does "you need to talk about various things" not directly flow into the debt talk with some nudging from us? They seem pretty closely connected by virtue of both being things Sayaka and Hitomi NEED to talk about and haven't been, and we'd have to drop the ball pretty hard to not bring that up when the time comes.
 
Ugolino said:
I'm not even sure how the conversation's moved onto that point, but as you just wrote, one follows the other and there's no reason to leave it out from when we actually tell Hitomi. Them talking should be part of the follow-up to us actually telling her about these things.
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And there's no point in trying to merge them all together. It's actually counterproductive.
1. Telling her about magic best done in a group setting, because it's a secret that everyone else holds that she's being included into.
2. Telling her about Sayaka's personal issues and how they relate to her is best done completely privately. If we drag Sayaka in and then tell Hitomi "we think you need to talk to Sayaka about how she feels like she can't pay you back for sheltering her family, and about how you're both crushing on the same boy, and about how we don't want her to sell her soul over inconsequential things, and about how all these things contribute so she'll pretty much cave to you on everything you press her on" that would pretty much fuck it over forever.
3. THEN and only then should we get them talking together. Seriously, Hitomi possibly doesn't even realize any of these issues exist. She's a sensible person, but she needs information first.
 
There is a point because the alternative is likely to be it doesn't get done and it's a good springboard for it. Merging it lets us actually do something about the problems at once rather than dragging it out for no real benefit.

1. Disagree. If it was just magic, then yes, but that'd cheerfully disregarding all the other problems that we'd need to bring up afterwards, and we can handle telling her about magic either alone or with Sayaka. There's no need to make the magic infodump a group therapy session when there's no real benefit to doing that anyway. It's not like she wouldn't talk to them about it afterwards.
2. ...Yes. Which is why if it's just us doing that, we bring it up, otherwise we nudge Sayaka to do it.
3. Yes. I fail to see what you're trying to argue but the order of a)miracles and magic, b)Sayaka's various issues, c)group talk shouldn't really be in question.

Step A: Hitomi talk. Drop magic on her. If Sayaka's not there, tell her about the problems, otherwise nudge Sayaka to do so.
Step B: They talk out their issues
Step C: THEN we can get to the group hugs and everyone chattering in a mob.

Magic in a group session only makes sense if you're ignoring all the other problems we'd need to tell her about.
 
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It's conflating two mostly separate problems, yes. I suppose I am arguing that. Magic is a matter of inclusiveness. Personal issues are a separate matter. They should be discussed separately, even if one is required for the other.
 
Except that they're both connected as "things Hitomi and Sayaka need to talk about" and it makes no sense to arbitrarily separate them.

Torgamous said:
Or if you allow for multiple conversations and admit that magic existing is a big enough thing that maybe it deserves its own.
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You do see they're connected, right? As in, "not neat little categories to be parceled off and forgotten about rather than using the natural lead-in"? Magic existing is a thing, yes, but that really doesn't mean we should forget about the rest when they're clearly going to need to talk about things anyway.
 
Sayaka isn't even a magical girl. She isn't Hitomi's only close friend here either. There is zero reason to single her out in bringing Hitomi into the loop about magic. Madoka has as much right to be there, and as actual magical girls, Mami and Homura an even greater one.

The lead-in is in no way natural, and we need to commit to a private, as in no Sayaka, conversation first anyway.
 
Ugolino said:
Except that they're both connected as "things Hitomi and Sayaka need to talk about" and it makes no sense to arbitrarily separate them.
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You're arbitrarily combining them. Magic is something Hitomi and her whole social circle need to talk about. Yes, that includes Sayaka, but there is noting special about Sayaka in relation to the magic reveal.
 
And that might not happen and isn't absolutely necessary. Sayaka, Hitomi, and us is perfectly workable. The lead-in's fine.

The issue here is Sayaka and Hitomi not talking and the only reason we're there at all is to steer the conversation. Madoka and the others factor into it less so since they're not directly part of the problem. Their "right" to be there doesn't matter in the slightest since the point here is just to get those two talking.

Torgamous said:
You're arbitrarily combining them. Magic is something Hitomi and her whole social circle need to talk about. Yes, that includes Sayaka, but there is noting special about Sayaka in relation to the magic reveal.
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You're confusing "what they need to talk about later" and "what we need to get out of the way as part of our attempts to get Sayaka and Hitomi to talk". Those facts don't change anything.
 
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And the same people needing to talk about multiple things doesn't mean those things should happen together anyway. Sabrina and Mami needed to talk about the lichbomb, and they also need to talk about the witchbomb. Somehow we've managed to survive having those discussions at separate times.
 
Torgamous said:
And the same people needing to talk about multiple things doesn't mean those things should happen together anyway. Sabrina and Mami needed to talk about the lichbomb, and they also need to talk about the witchbomb. Somehow we've managed to survive having those discussions at separate times.
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...You're seriously comparing "lich and witchbomb" to "Sayaka and Hitomi just need to talk about various things"?

Hitomi isn't going to have a suicidal breakdown if we tell her about how Sayaka feels guilty after setting the groundwork with the magic reveal. Those two examples are nothing alike. There's no reason to put it off at all.

Oh, and we don't need to talk about the witchbomb, thanks, let's not go for another ride on the "let's break Mami for no real benefit" merry-go-round.
 
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Ugolino said:
And that might not happen and isn't absolutely necessary. Sayaka, Hitomi, and us is perfectly workable. The lead-in's fine.

The issue here is Sayaka and Hitomi not talking and the only reason we're there at all is to steer the conversation. Madoka and the others factor into it less so since they're not directly part of the problem. Their "right" to be there doesn't matter in the slightest since the point here is just to get those two talking.
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That is not the issue. The issue is Hitomi doesn't know about magic.

Sayaka and Hitomi not talking is a separately and only tangentially related issue.



Ugolino said:
[x]Change the subject.
[x]Telepathy with everyone but Sayaka. There's more to it. It isn't fair to Hitomi or Sayaka to keep her out of the loop, and you think it might be making things worse between them
.[x] It's becoming impossible for us to interact normally while magic is still a secret. I don't like that.
[x]Telepathically ask Homura if she thinks it's a bad idea or just unnecessary?
[x]Visit Kyosuke. Try and see how he's doing, and nudge Sayaka to talk to him if she doesn't.
[x]Try to get back before 5 unless something comes up.
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By the way, this vote is god awful.

Why are we singling out everyone but Sayaka in telepathy? The Sayaka-Hitomi discussion is separate to introducing Hitomi to magic. That is arbitrarily connecting two unrelated topics, and even if they topics were connected like you seem to believe, it doesn't hold argumentative weight to anyone but someone following our own script. It doesn't contain the logic necessary to connect those two points.
Nudging in what way? Have you actually watched episode 4? We need to be direct about what we nudge. Points not phrasing only works when we aren't trying to convey a specific message. What exactly are we nudging her to talk about? Figure that out first. Otherwise you get Kyouske lashing out at her and Sayaka promising him a miracle.
 
Torgamous said:
And the same people needing to talk about multiple things doesn't mean those things should happen together anyway. Sabrina and Mami needed to talk about the lichbomb, and they also need to talk about the witchbomb. Somehow we've managed to survive having those discussions at separate times.
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You seem to be implying that Ugo's vote is reaching too far at the moment. It really isn't. It's just pursuing permission to bring Hitomi into the loop, and then going through the hospital visit. What's the issue here?
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
By the way, this vote is god awful.

Why are we singling out everyone but Sayaka in telepathy? The Sayaka-Hitomi discussion is separate to introducing Hitomi to magic. That is arbitrarily connecting two unrelated topics, and even if they topics were connected like you seem to believe, it doesn't hold argumentative weight to anyone but someone following our own script. It doesn't contain the logic necessary to connect those two points.
Nudging in what way? Have you actually watched episode 4? We need to be direct about what we nudge. Points not phrasing only works when we aren't trying to convey a specific message. What exactly are we nudging her to talk about? Figure that out first. Otherwise you get Kyouske lashing out at her and Sayaka promising him a miracle.
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We're singling out Sayaka because saying "you have problems" to Sayaka's face is a bit of a social fumble.

The nudge does seem to be unnecessary, though. What seems to be more important to keeping her from contracting before we go on our timestop healing escapade tonight is telling her that we're going to heal him tonight.
 
@SynchronizedWritersBlock

This vote is fine, and I find that comment amusing given yours is a more needlessly wordy version of the same points with some fluff and verbosity thrown in for some reason. The changes didn't add much, but variety's good, I suppose?

Hitomi doesn't know about magic and needs to be told about magic for the actual conversation to happen properly. That's all there is to that.

The first point can't be made with Sayaka listening but should still be said. Nudging is if she hangs back for whatever reason...and is less a particular message rather than a contingency for if she doesn't.
 
Gadjo said:
You seem to be implying that Ugo's vote is reaching too far at the moment. It really isn't. It's just pursuing permission to bring Hitomi into the loop, and then going through the hospital visit. What's the issue here?
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Ugo's plan for future votes is to roll the magic reveal and Sayaka's issues into one megaconversation because they both involve Sayaka and Hitomi.
 
There is no reason whatsoever to delay when we have a perfectly good opening to nudge Sayaka to talk about them/can let Hitomi know there is a problem in the first place while we're having that conversation, and I still don't understand your reasoning for wanting to do so.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Which isn't a thing anyone is advocating. There's no need to conflate Sayaka's problems with informing Hitomi about magic. It doesn't follow for anyone but us, and the vote doesn't bother to connect the two.
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How does it not follow? They haven't been talking about various things, some of those things are related to magic. We drop the magic reveal then push Sayaka to actually TALK to Hitomi.
 
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SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Which isn't a thing anyone is advocating. There's no need to conflate Sayaka's problems with informing Hitomi about magic. It doesn't follow for anyone but us, and the vote doesn't bother to connect the two.
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The reason we want to inform Hitomi about magic is that Hitomi causes Sayaka to witch in canon, and might cause her to contract here. If she knows more about Sayaka and what's going through her head she won't break her by saying something that she didn't intend to be so hurtful, like she did in the show.
Torgamous said:
Ugo's plan for future votes is to roll the magic reveal and Sayaka's issues into one megaconversation because they both involve Sayaka and Hitomi.
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I guess I don't really have a problem with that. There's a good and a bad way to handle that, but we'll vote on it when we get there.
 
Ugolino said:
Hitomi doesn't know about magic and needs to be told about magic for the actual conversation to happen properly. That's all there is to that.
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Hitomi also needs to be told about magic so we don't have to, for example, lie to her whenever we meet her partway to where she's walking on foot, or if she asks how Sabrina got up to the roof, or any number of other things that her social circle is or will be hiding if she isn't let in on the secret.

Telling Hitomi about magic has never been just for Sayaka's benefit.
Ugolino said:
How does it not follow? They haven't been talking about various things, some of those things are related to magic.
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Various things are various. They by definition don't follow from each other.
 
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