Oddly enough, I find it much easier to suspend my disbelief when assuming the Soul Gem contains the metaphysical 'soul' as opposed to assuming that the 'soul' is 'a little cluster of neurons' - so that's the interpretation I prefer.

I don't know enough about neuroscience to state anything with any great confidence, but I was under the impression that memory and personality (the two main components that I'd suggest make you 'you' - i.e. the 'soul') were not particularly localised in the brain to the point where they could be removed without taking significant chunks of tissue that may also have other functions. So, wouldn't removing those neurons have an effect on the body since some systems would be impared/non-functional?

But then again, Magic=Bullshit, so Magic could be substituted in place of those lost neurons to keep things running - so that argument fails to really hold water...

If they really are removed I wonder if you could detect any physical differences in brain anatomy by having an MRI before and after contracting? Would those 'neurons' just no longer be there, or just not work anymore, or something else?

I suppose you could take the 'soul/neurons' and put them in a soul gem and leave an identical copy in the brain - but have the two 'neuron clusters' linked so that what happens to one happens to the other?
[/pointless speculation]

I dunno, It just feels a bit odd that we'd be happy to accept the existence of physics warping metaphysical magic powers, Goddesses, Devils, Magical Girl Heaven, becoming a 'concept' - a law of the universe, and rewriting the universe (twice!) but then draw the line at "no, the 'soul' is a physical thing - it's neurons, not anything truly metaphysical. Totally explainable by science."

I mean, seriously? *Gestures to all the other impossible stuff incredulously*
 
Relevant parts of when this was previously discussed:

Agreed, although I'm exclusively talking MadoPhysics. The "Soul" here is a group of cells. It can create limitless energy(Grief, maybe Hope), and may use that to alter the world around it. The Seed seems to be the container for the Soul, with the Soul Gem imprisoning the Seed to limit it's influence over the world and possibly encourage Grief accumulation.

Correction, Hildegard's soul is a group of cells within the witch barrier. Outside of the barrier, the soul is the pinprick of grief that exist in the center of every grief seed and soul gem. And, no, cracking the soul gem just kills them.

Correction. The Soul is a group of cells. That is Canon from Kyubey's unlying not-mouth. He says it right after revealing the Lichbomb.

Note: Translations vary. I've definitely seen interpretations of the dialogue from youtube fansubs where that is a thing.

...That translation is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start. The most literal translation of Kyubey's explaination is "(The soul) exist between your neurons, within your blood and in the beating of your heart." It's positively dripping with metaphor, so there's a few ways this can be translated, but I have translations from three different sub groups, one for the tv series, one for the blu-ray release, and one of the movie release, and not a single one goes anywhere CLOSE to this "collection of cells" bullshit.

Son of a--

It's NETFLIX. Screencap to follow. ...Fucking finally, that took way too long.

 
Oddly enough, I find it much easier to suspend my disbelief when assuming the Soul Gem contains the metaphysical 'soul' as opposed to assuming that the 'soul' is 'a little cluster of neurons' - so that's the interpretation I prefer.

I don't know enough about neuroscience to state anything with any great confidence, but I was under the impression that memory and personality (the two main components that I'd suggest make you 'you' - i.e. the 'soul') were not particularly localised in the brain to the point where they could be removed without taking significant chunks of tissue that may also have other functions. So, wouldn't removing those neurons have an effect on the body since some systems would be impared/non-functional?

But then again, Magic=Bullshit, so Magic could be substituted in place of those lost neurons to keep things running - so that argument fails to really hold water...

If they really are removed I wonder if you could detect any physical differences in brain anatomy by having an MRI before and after contracting? Would those 'neurons' just no longer be there, or just not work anymore, or something else?

I suppose you could take the 'soul/neurons' and put them in a soul gem and leave an identical copy in the brain - but have the two 'neuron clusters' linked so that what happens to one happens to the other?
[/pointless speculation]

I dunno, It just feels a bit odd that we'd be happy to accept the existence of physics warping metaphysical magic powers, Goddesses, Devils, Magical Girl Heaven, becoming a 'concept' - a law of the universe, and rewriting the universe (twice!) but then draw the line at "no, the 'soul' is a physical thing - it's neurons, not anything truly metaphysical. Totally explainable by science."

I mean, seriously? *Gestures to all the other impossible stuff incredulously*
Again, Kyubey's probably oversimplifying.
 
Hey now: Sayaka may not be too socially minded, but she knows different activities require different forms of dress. Magical girls wear flashy, frilly dresses and skirts, crime fighters require a mask, cape optional.

Sayaka wouldn't consider a cape optional. She'd consider it a necessity.

Kyubey says that the soul is a bundle of neurons.

Not in the translation I watched.

"Besides, you humans don't even realise you have souls in the first place.
Your body's nothing more than a collection of neurons and a centralised cardiovascular system.
So when a human body can no longer maintain life, its soul vanishes along with it.
I gave your soul a physical form to prevent that from happening, a form you can pick up with your own hands and protect."

My read on this statement (Kyubey, ep7), is that he is saying the body is a puppet of the soul anyway, not that the soul is a collection of neurons. So no, I don't think the soul is a brain-part, that seems to be a misinterpretation.

Agreed.

Of course, this has been discussed before as shown above.


Anyway, my point about giving Sayaka superpowers isn't to get us another ally. It's meant to be another alternative to her contracting. In the event that she gets too "Justice!" to be willing to stay on the sidelines.
 
@PhantomFractions: Doesn't matter if it damages the system left behind, since if meguca can keep going with no blood, they likely don't really need their brain and are just a corpse.
Yep, I know that - said pretty much the same thing in the next line '(my) argument fails to hold water' because of Magic.

On an entirely different note (considering all the Sayaka and Glasses-chan talk):
How long do you think it takes for a new Meguca to come up with their own 'thing'? What would Sayaka's 'thing' be? Any guesses for Glasses' 'thing'?
 
Re: Neurons, Japanese speaker here. Cannongerbil's got the right of it. The use of 'space in between' implies that the soul is basically inhabiting the 'gaps' between those objects, since 'between' is spoken the same way as how it's been used for other liminalities, such as "the undead are between life and death".
 
You know, let's just go to the original original source: the script.

キユウベえ「そもそも君たち人間は、魂の存在なんて最初から自覚できてないんだろう?」
キユウべえはさやかの頭を指差し、
キユゥべえ「そこは神経細胞の集まりでしかないしーー」
続けて今度は胸を指差し、
キユウベえ「ーーそこは循環器系の中枢があるだけだ。そのくせ生命が維持できなくなると、人間は精神まで消滅してしまう。そうならないよう、僕は君たちの魂を実体化し、手に取って、きちんと護れる形にしてあげた。少しでも安全に魔女と戦えるように、ね」

The wiki's translation is as follows:

Kyubey: Besides, you humans don't even realize you have souls in the first place.
Kyubey points at Sayaka's head.
Kyubey: Your body's nothing more than a collection of neurons--
Then, it points at her heart.
Kyubey: ...and a centralized cardiovascular system. In addition, when the human body ceases to function, the soul is lost. I gave your soul a physical form to prevent that from happening— a form you can pick up and protect with your own hands. That way, you can battle Witches with greater safety.

Kyubey seems to consider Sayaka's brain to be part of her body, and therefore separate from her soul. It also implies that the soul does not have physical form.

And since this debate doesn't seem to be going anywhere, have cute baby pictures.

 
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Interloper pt. 21
You eye the girl, hand still outstretched with the Grief Seed held out to her. Theories spin through your mind, thinking about why she might turn down the Grief Seed. Because of pride? Because she's aware of what a Grief Seed is? Because she's... like you? Somehow, you doubt that.

Because she wants to put up a good front?

Because she saw you mess with the Grief Seed? Then again, she didn't actually show much of a response to you pulling the Grief free.

Still.

You want her to take the Seed.

"Miss Ono," you say slowly, carefully considering your words. You don't want to sound condescending, if it's pride that drives her, and you want to tiptoe around... certain facts of life as a puella magi. The girl's eyes flick back to you, centered somewhere around your nose.

Not meeting your eyes?

"After a certain level, Grief in your Soul Gem affects how you feel and think. It's... sensible to keep a Grief Seed on hand," you say, watching her reaction carefully. The girl blinks, her lips tightening slightly and eyes flicking up to yours for a moment before dipping back to your somewhere around your nose again. "And so," you continue with gentle emphasis, "I'd feel a lot better knowing that my new teammate had a safety net. Please take it?"

"Very well," Megane acquieces, holding her hand out in an imperious gesture for the Grief Seed. You place the spiked ball in her hand, and slim fingers close over it. The girl holds the Grief Seed for a moment, as if weighing it. Finally, she brings her arm behind her back, and when her hand drops to hang loosely at her side, the Grief Seed's vanished.

Not like she has pockets in an evening gown, you suppose.

You check Megane's Soul Gem again, in your Grief senses. A little bit in there, perhaps a little more than there was before. Nothing too egregious, you think, merely... noticeable.

You half turn, glancing back at Homura and Kirika, and wave a hand at them in a quick, beckoning gesture.

Homura blinks amethyst eyes once, rising smoothly to her feet, rifle sliding away into her shield, while Kirika bounces energetically to her feet. Both of them leap for your roof, soaring through the dead, still air of the time stop to land - Homura with a quiet click of her heels on concrete, and Kirika with a loud crack of shattering flagstones.

"Heya," you say, shoving the thoughts aside. "Homura, could you end the..." You tap your hand against your left wrist, where her shield would be. You're not sure whether Megane knows what it is yet, but you doubt Homura would appreciate you blurting it out like that, in any case.

Even if a certain little rat bastard's been telling tales.

Homura nods, reaching across to grip the rim. She cranks the shield across with the hum of whirring gears.

Colour and noise floods back into the world, the subtle hum of the living city, the gentle warmth of sunlight, the gentle breeze blowing across the rooftops almost a sledgehammer to the senses after the endless silence of time stop.

Megane shivers slightly, turning her face up to the sun for a moment with her eyes closed before looking back at Mami.

Mami smiles, bobbing her head sideways at Homura. "Miss Ono, this is Akemi Homura," she says, before continuing in a slightly less pleasant tone, "And this is Kure Kirika."

The girl glances at the two, looking them up and down before inclining her head slightly to Homura. "Pleased to meet you," she says, voice neutral.

"Mami?" you ask telepathically. "Could you set up a meeting at her convenience, tomorrow maybe? And if she brings up anything else?"

"Of course, Sabrina," Mami answers warmly. She turns a polite smile on Megane, and asks, "Miss Ono?"

"Yes, Miss Tomoe?" the girl asks, looking back at Mami. This time, now that Mami mentioned it... she's not meeting Mami's eyes either, is she?

"We would like to meet you again tomorrow, if that's acceptable?" Mami asks, smiling.

Megane hesitates. "I have school tomorrow," she says.

"Ah, of course," Mami says, dipping her head with a smile, and continues without missing a beat. "We have school, too. Maybe afterwards?"

... you're vaguely tempted to note that you don't, technically, but that's not a helpful thing to say, is it?

"That would be fine," Megane says, still looking somewhere in the region of Mami's nose.

Kirika yawns hugely, and throws herself onto the roof, plunking herself down into a cross legged seating position in a flurry of cloth. The motion draws Megane's eye, and you see her blink slightly, before shifting her gaze away from Kirika.

"Out of curiosity, Miss Ono," you say, drawing the girl's attention. "Where do you go to school?"

"Yokosuka Middle School," the girl answers. "I'm in the third year."

"Ah, we're from Mitakihara Middle School, mostly," Mami says, smiling.

"I get to skip schoooooool," Kirika lilts cheerfully from her seated position.

A definite flash of something across Megane's face, but you're not sure what. "Ah," she says. "I think that we're supposed to be rivals, then."

Mami shakes her head. "I've never set much stock by the school rivalries."

The girl shakes her head, not saying anything.

Mami smiles, seemingly unperturbed by the awkward silence. "Do you have any other concerns, Miss Ono?"

Megane hesitates for a moment, before shaking her head. "No, there aren't," she says. "May I leave?"

"Ah, actually," you say, raising a finger. "Could I have your phone number? So that we can contact each other?"

The girl hesitates for a moment, before nodding. You pull out your phone, looking at her quizzically, and she lists out a number which you hurriedly punch in, thumbs clicking over the number pad. "Alright, so..." you hit the call, and wait for her phone to ring before cancelling the call. "That's my number."

Megane nods, reaching behind her back and pulling her own phone out to check - it's a smart phone, and a new, high-end model, too, if you're any judge.

"Righty, then," you say. "Nothing else, then. Mami, Homura, Kirika?" You look around at your friends.

"Nope!" Kirika chirps, while Mami and Homura just shake your heads, the former with a smile.

"Tomorrow, then, Miss Ono," Mami says, smiling at the girl.

"Tomorrow," she says, turning and beginning to walk away, gait... elegant and graceful. She reaches the edge of the roof, and steps off, dropping smoothly off the edge.

You sigh. "Well," you say. "That was a thing."

Mami shakes her head. "She's... preoccupied with something," she says. "I'm not sure what."

"Yeah, I get that impression, too," you say, rubbing your chin thoughtfully. "Homura, Kirika?"

Homura shrugs minutely, raising and dipping her shoulders the tiniest fraction of a centimeter.

"No idea," Kirika says.

"I'm heading back to Madoka and the others" Homura says, voice quiet and impassive.

"We should," Mami agrees. "We left them in a hurry. Ah, unless there's anything else, Sabrina?"

"Nah, I don't think so," you agree, smiling at Mami.

"I'm going back to Oriko!" Kirika chirps.

Homura's eyes snap to the girl, frowning, before she glances sidelong at you.

"Ah, yeah," you say. "Kirika, I'll escort you back to Oriko's. Mami, Homura, I'll catch up soon, OK?"

The time traveller nods, satisfied.

Mami hesitates, and you give her a smile. "I'll be fine, Mami," you say. "And I'll catch up as soon as I can, OK?"

"Ah... actually, I could come with you?" Mami says.

"That works too," you say. "Homura?"

Homura nods.

The black haired girl hops lightly to her feet, grinning eagerly at you.

"Alrighty," you say. "See you soon, Homura! C'mon, Mami, Kirika."

With that, the three of you are soon soaring across the rooftops, Kirika just a little bit ahead of you and Mami at your side. The enormous mass of Grief from Aurora follows you at a distance, a cloud of miniature planetoids cascading over each other in a teeming mass.

You smile gently at Mami as the two of you leap from the roof in virtual lockstep, and she returns the smile, looking... content.

A glance forward at Kirika, bounding exuberantly ahead and vectoring back towards her oujo. Something about the timestop, and Kirika's cheerful, irrepressible energy, reminds you of days past, and a time when you had to threaten Oriko with... Witching out Kirika. You're... you're glad that you didn't kill them. But that you had threatened Oriko with that, even in bluff...

You regret it, you think.

You can't help but wonder if Oriko ever feels the same way about what she did.

A sigh. Moving on. You reach out telepathically for Homura as you leap. "Hey, Homura?"

"Yes?" the time traveller asks.

"When we've got the time later, could we talk a bit?" you ask, emphasising the 'time'. You trust that she'll get it.

"... Understood," Homura replies.

"That said... Homura, um, do you have any objections regarding how we dealt with Miss Ono, back there?" you ask, as you push off another roof with a cra- without a cracking noise. You're getting it.

Slowly.

"I don't think she's very useful," Homura says.

You sigh as you vault an air conditioning compressor. "I don't want her dead or worse," you say simply.

Homura doesn't respond to that.

"Anyway," you say, moving on. "I...can't help but notice that you've been accumulating a little more Grief than usual, lately. Is something wrong? Anything I can help with?" you inject as much concern as you can into your mental voice.

"Checking on Madoka, making sure Kyuubey hasn't been around," Homura replies, pausing for a moment before adding, "Resting."

"Ah, that's good to hear," you say.

"I will be doing some stocking up tomorrow," Homura says. "For Walpurgisnacht."

[] Write-in

=====​

Yes, going raiding Yakuza shopping for weapons with Mum Homura is on the table.
 
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Shopping for weapons? Sweet!
[X] Ask Homura if we can join in on that.
[X] Return to Madoka and Sayaka. Ask them if they or Mami have any ideas as to what we're doing with Nagisa.
[X] Return to Mami's apartment and start making preperations for Nagisa's arrival. Snacks, drinks, and whatnot.
 
Sounds good but:

[X] Ask Homura if we can join in on that.
-[x] Remind her that we could get a lot more done together.
[X] Return to Madoka and Sayaka. Ask them if they or Mami have any ideas as to what we're doing with Nagisa.
[X] Return to Mami's apartment and start making preperations for Nagisa's arrival. Snacks, drinks, and whatnot.
 
Sounds good but:

[X] Ask Homura if we can join in on that.
-[x] Remind her that we could get a lot more done together.
[X] Return to Madoka and Sayaka. Ask them if they or Mami have any ideas as to what we're doing with Nagisa.
[X] Return to Mami's apartment and start making preperations for Nagisa's arrival. Snacks, drinks, and whatnot.
That works.
 
We were going to heal Kyouske today (or at least set up a time to do so) to keep Sayaka from contracting. This came up, but we only spent 10 minutes on the Witch and the rest was timestop. We should still have plenty of time before Nagisa arrives. We put it off at lunch specifically because we were going to talk to her about it after school.

We need to get that done. I don't want Sayaka contracting or unhappy just because we didn't.
 
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