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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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FlatlineAskari said:
The issue here is that much of the payoff is entirely beside the point. Whether it contributes materially to them being our friends or not should not weigh on our decision to help Kyouko, because our aid should not be contingent on the recipients being our friends afterwards.
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Please don't take my analytical approach to mean that I don't care about Kyouko and Yuma. Rather, it's because I want to help them as much as possible that I want to analyze our reasons so that we can choose the best possible approach for the best possible reasons.

People are complex multifaceted creatures and can have complex multi-layered reasons for doing things. Figuring out the exact ratio of one reason to another is an exercise in futility, so for the purposes of this discussion, when I say "motive" or "reason", what I mean is that we expect an action to have a particular outcome and we desire that outcome to occur.

Motive 1: We expect that giving a grief seed will keep Kyouko and Yuma safe, where their lives would be in danger otherwise.

Motive 2: We expect that giving a grief seed will make Kyouko and Yuma more positively inclined toward us and more likely to be our friends in the future.

Motive 3: We expect that giving a grief seed will make Kyouko rethink her worldview with respect to altruism.

The first reason would probably be enough reason to take the action even if the other two motives were absent or contradictory. But the fact is that these are all complementary motives. The ratio is not important: for this action all that matters is that these motives are all in agreement and are sufficient reason to take the action.
 
Torgamous said:
It's somewhere between possible and very likely that Yuma's presence has forced Kyoko to curtail her familiar farming. Nobody wants to discuss Kyoko's familiar farming. Safer to just act on what knowledge we do have.
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Yuma is very much a game changer for Kyoko.

You know that selfishness kick Kyoko has? Yet the moment she has someone to care for she's making sacrifices for the other person's sake? Yeah.
 
Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[x] Cannongerbil
No. of votes: 1
Skelm

[x]Mention that Sendai's been resolved.
[x]Offer a regular grief seed. Ask to cleanse again too if it seems like she needs it. Give an open offer for her to drop by for cleanses.
-[x] If she presses us for a reason, restate what we said during our first meeting about just wanting to help megucas.
-[x] If you really can't stand it as charity, then teach he how to fight in melee. I'm new to this and you must have some pointers.
[x]Telepathy Yuma. Try and make sure your big sis cleanses her own gem too, okay?
[x] Also, give talking to Mami again some thought. She needs her friends after everything, and knowing what she does now... Well she blames herself for what happened to you and the others she recruited.
No. of votes: 2
Alfa290, Cannongerbil

[x] Probe further
-[x] Point out that Kyouko's gem was dark and they don't have any grief seeds.
-[x] Ask if there is a shortage of witches or if there's a different problem.
-[x] Kyouko and Yuma need grief seeds and cleansing, we need training in melee combat, so offer the following trade:
--[x] In exchange for daily training in melee combat, offer the following:
--[x] Cleansing of soul gems and grief seeds.
--[x] The loan of Jane for the duration of the training (no shorter than 3 weeks).
--[x] Assistance in witch hunting as part of the training. If the witches are in Kyouko's territory, she can keep the seeds.
[x] Describe the Sendai solution, mention the meguca involved, the reason for the conflict, and the way it was resolved.
[x] Ask if there are any other meguca in Kasamino.
[x] Telepathy Yuma. Try and make sure your big sis cleanses her own gem too, okay?
No. of votes: 1
boonerunner

[x] sigh
[x] Hand over Jane I noticed you didn't have any grief seeds on you.
-[x] Don't give it to Kyuubey; I can keep recycling it for you as long as you hold onto it. Half-full seems like it can last forever, or call me within 24 hours if it ever reaches full. I can be here in 15 minutes if I use the casual flight; less, if it's a rush.
-[x] You can give it back when you've got a few spare seeds of your own to work with.
--[x] Various response answers, depending on reaction:
---[x] Do I really need a reason?
---[x] Obviously I don't really need it, though there's still things I can use it for. So yeah, I'd eventually like it back, but it's not a big deal right now.
---[x] No, I insist. No, really, I insist. Take the damn seed, Kyouko.
[x] So... You wanna talk about what's bothering you so much right now? You look like you need someone to yell at.
-[x] Or maybe a bit of sparring? Let off some steam?
No. of votes: 12
Kinematics, SynchronizedWritersBlock, landcollector, Aranfan, CornyBones, Gadjo, Sereg, Ugolino, Guilop, AuraTwilight, Muramasa, TheSlayers
 
[x]Mention that Sendai's been resolved.
[x]Offer a regular grief seed. Ask to cleanse again too if it seems like she needs it. Give an open offer for her to drop by for cleanses.
-[x] If she presses us for a reason, restate what we said during our first meeting about just wanting to help megucas.
-[x] If you really can't stand it as charity, then teach me how to fight in melee. I'm new to this and you must have some pointers.
[x]Telepathy Yuma. Try and make sure your big sis cleanses her own gem too, okay?
[x] Also, give talking to Mami again some thought. She needs her friends after everything, and knowing what she does now... Well she blames herself for what happened to you and the others she recruited.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Yuma is very much a game changer for Kyoko.

You know that selfishness kick Kyoko has? Yet the moment she has someone to care for she's making sacrifices for the other person's sake? Yeah.
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Also note that Kyouko is way more psychologically healthy with Yuma around her. I mean she doesn't handle the Witchbomb and such all that bad but like

Look being a Magical Girl is the best thing that ever happened to Yuma and Yuma is the best thing that happens to Magical Girls short of Madoka or Sabrina.
 
Kinematics said:
The reformatting the tally program does on votes can really be annoying sometimes.
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Mmm. Also, we really should say something more than "sigh" and handing over the seed since that seems patronizing. At the very least, we should press about the fact she's clearly not okay with things. But sighing and handing it over seems like it'd provoke a reaction and not a good one.
 
Ugolino said:
"sigh" really doesn't seem like a good way to handle Kyouko. Again, we really should ask about it.
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I added that after the initial writeup I did, because of the lead-out from the previous update. Basically, there needs to be some transitional moment between her last comment and handing over the seed. I can't think of anything that would be verbalized that really seems to fit. The sigh, on the other hand, can be expressed in a number of different ways; I'm mainly relying on Firn to use an appropriate version (ie: not disappointment, or shaking her head, or anything like that).
 
landcollector said:
Obviously, we must play Go then...[/deliberately missing the point]
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Please do, I like Go. (I'm only passable at it, but I like it!)
Cannongerbil said:
Are you fucking serious?

Do you not see how deliberately pissing Kyouko off to make a fucking point is a bad thing?

The payment for sparring thing, I can understand, but how exactly do you think deliberately guilt tripping her and making her angry is going to lead to her being amendable to us offering to pay her for sparring lessons? We'd be lucky if she doesn't chase us off with the business end of her spear.
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Chill.
landcollector said:
The heated language isn't remotely necessary, Cannongerbil.
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Thank you.
Aranfan said:
*throws up hands*

Aranfan! with an N! Is the morph ball kitty avatar not enough?
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...

I've known you, around the forums, for three-four years, and I frakking mentally pronounce your name as Aran-Fan how the flurgen freaking hell did I never make the connection
Kinematics said:
The reformatting the tally program does on votes can really be annoying sometimes.
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Ugh, I strip out <> tags for the sake of convenience. Never really expected it to come up much.
 
Ugolino said:
Mmm. Also, we really should say something more than "sigh" and handing over the seed since that seems patronizing. At the very least, we should press about the fact she's clearly not okay with things. But sighing and handing it over seems like it'd provoke a reaction and not a good one.
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For clarity, I'm thinking more of a type of sigh that integrates steeling yourself for action, not disapproval of who you're talking to. It could probably be specified better, or even left out and let Firn handle it entirely on his side, but it still felt like it needed something there.
 
Kinematics said:
For clarity, I'm thinking more of a type of sigh that integrates steeling yourself for action, not disapproval of who you're talking to. It could probably be specified better, or even left out and let Firn handle it entirely on his side, but it still felt like it needed something there.
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It still comes over as patronizing and missing the gentle prodding at her being okay with it that really, really should be there in that vote and I hope I'm wrong about it going over badly, but the overall approach of the vote works better than the alternatives.
 
What does it mean when you sigh at someone, especially someone you don't know all that well? Yeah, it does seem kind of patronizing, like we're humoring her.
 
boonerunner said:
Just because the stress-talk is open-ended in some ways doesn't mean that it's completely open-ended. The evidence suggests that Kyouko and Yuma need grief seeds. We don't know why. After Kyouko explains what's going on, then we'll know the why, but they need a grief seed regardless of what the reason is for their current lack. Waiting until after the explanation simply gives us more knowledge of the circumstances in order to make the offer in a better way (I trust Firnagzen to handle the actual wording here, or give to us another vote if something really surprising turns up).
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Kinematics said:
Right. Which is part of why we give them the grief seed right off. We don't need to know why to have motivation to give them the grief seed. Asking them why first implies that the action is predicated on whatever reason they gave.

In other words, asking them about reasons first implies that giving them the seed is based on them having a "good enough reason". That implies that they need to provide some sort of justification for anything we do for them. That's not the impression we want to give.
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Torgamous said:
It's somewhere between possible and very likely that Yuma's presence has forced Kyoko to curtail her familiar farming. Nobody wants to discuss Kyoko's familiar farming. Safer to just act on what knowledge we do have.
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While that conjecture does seem likely (and the current vote would be fine for that situation), we don't have to worry about Kyouko bringing up familiar farming in front of Yuma. If we did ask, her response would probably be more along the lines of "there aren't enough witches", which is perfectly true and it's a situation that we can deal with by giving her a grief seed as planned. But that's not the only possible explanation for what's wrong. If she says, for instance, "Rival meguca are interfering so we've been stashing our grief seeds in a secret location", then we'd need a completely different response. While that situation is extremely unlikely, we won't know (for sure) what's wrong until we ask. Our intention from the beginning has been to help Kyouko and Yuma (that was never in doubt), but we need to know what the best way to help them is. That help will probably involve offering them a grief seed (barring really unexpected circumstances), but the way that we offer the seed and whether we offer them any other support will vary depending on what their needs are. When information is available, it's usually safer to obtain that information before acting.
 
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All these votes that want give normal grief seed as charity to Kyoko >>

Well, even if that vote lost...

Hildegarde was the clear one, right?

[X] Point out that you can feel grief.
[X] "Allow me surpass your expectations."
[X] Telepathy Yuma. Try and make sure your big sis cleanses her own gem too, okay?
[X] Put both Jane and Hildegarde on the table.
-[X] While most people you do seed recycling with are fine with normal ones, you have experimental one to offer that should be vastly longer-lasting.
-[X] Insist she picks one.
-[X] If she picks clear seed, give her explanation on that.
-[X] If she seems to want to know why, mention that while there are things she could do right now to help you back like combat training and information, seeing her and Yuma healthy is its own reward. And her and Yuma killing witches is good, too.
[X] Describe the Sendai solution, mention the meguca involved, the reason for the conflict, and the way it was resolved.
[X] Ask if there are any other meguca in Kasamino.

Some votes mention going hunting or sparring right now, but I am unsure if we have time.
 
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Didn't we have a long-term plan regarding that one seed, HIldegarde (that's the one that had its Grief eaten by another Grief Seed while they were both in the same pocket, right?) -- something to do with seeing if it ended up reverting somehow? Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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