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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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boonerunner said:
Combat training was never a primary goal of these votes, it was only ever intended as a band-aid to placate Kyouko. This is still charity (with a flimsy excuse) rather than an actual equivalent exchange. And people were still more comfortable voting for the option where we didn't charge Kyouko.

Obviously I don't ever want to advocate a plan which allows anyone starve who could have been helped by us. But asking for payment in exchange for services rendered to people who have the means to provide payment? That just makes sense. If we offer Kyouko a deal where she gets cleanses in exchange for training, then it should be a fair deal where both of us benefit, not one where we throw in the training as something that we don't really care about but which we add in merely to salve her ego. If we make her the offer of a fair deal, there is a (remote) possibility that she would reject it. But if that happens, we would still have plenty of room to revise our plan to account for her decision in such a way that we can still make sure that she and Yuma don't starve.
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I think you're over thinking this. Kyoko likes to operate on equivalent exchange, yes. We want to help, and we would like to do it for free because we have Emiya Syndrome. The goal is to make this as favorable to Kyoko and Yuma as possible. From our position, grief seeds hold no value as we personally do not need them. From her perspective they are high value because they are we what keep her and Yuma alive.

The first part is trying to get her to take it based on our valuation. The fall back is to use something closer to her valuation of the grief seed and cleansing. Now I really don't think Kyoko will reject the offer just because it's charity. Remember, she's running on fumes unless she has a seed stash hidden somewhere and we failed to connect the dots. She has also prioritized Yuma as her main concern and desperate people will sometimes do things they find distasteful if it avoids an even worse occurrence.
 
[x] Probe further
-[x]Um...The spoon isn't.
-[x]Do you want to talk about it?
[x]After lunch, offer a regular grief seed. Ask to cleanse again too if it seems like she needs it. Give an open offer for her to drop by for cleanses.
-[x] If she presses us for a reason, restate what we said during our first meeting about just wanting to help megucas.
- [x] If you really want to trade, then we could use your help with melee combat if you have the time. I'm new to this and you must have some pointers.
[x]Telepathy Yuma. Try and make sure your big sis cleanses her own gem too, okay?
[x]Mention that Sendai's been resolved.

I'm not keen on outright pressing about Mami too fast since that'll get an adverse reaction. And going overboard with complications is just aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
 
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[x] <sigh>
[x] <Hand over Jane> I noticed you didn't have any grief seeds on you.
-[x] Don't give it to Kyuubey; I can keep recycling it for you as long as you hold onto it. Half-full seems like it can last forever, or call me within 24 hours if it ever reaches full. I can be here in 15 minutes if I use the casual flight; less, if it's a rush.
-[x] You can give it back when you've got a few spare seeds of your own to work with.
--[x] Various response answers, depending on reaction:
---[x] Do I really need a reason?
---[x] Obviously I don't really need it, though there's still things I can use it for. So yeah, I'd eventually like it back, but it's not a big deal right now.
---[x] No, I insist. No, really, I insist. Take the damn seed, Kyouko.
[x] So... You wanna talk about what's bothering you so much right now? You look like you need someone to yell at.
-[x] Or maybe a bit of sparring? Let off some steam?
 
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Alfa290 said:
I think you're over thinking this. Kyoko likes to operate on equivalent exchange, yes. We want to help, and we would like to do it for free because we have Emiya Syndrome. The goal is to make this as favorable to Kyoko and Yuma as possible. From our position, grief seeds hold no value as we personally do not need them. From her perspective they are high value because they are we what keep her and Yuma alive.

The first part is trying to get her to take it based on our valuation. The fall back is to use something closer to her valuation of the grief seed and cleansing. Now I really don't think Kyoko will reject the offer just because it's charity. Remember, she's running on fumes unless she has a seed stash hidden somewhere and we failed to connect the dots. She has also prioritized Yuma as her main concern and desperate people will sometimes do things they find distasteful if it avoids an even worse occurrence.
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I resent the Emiya syndrome quip. We are basically doing what we literally were born to do , thats all. Nothing crazy about that.
Other than that, yes, we do not want anything here except fewer seeds for Kyuubey and helping Kyouko , with Red Girl being our main objetive (weell, and reconciling best girl mumi and her...)
 
Cannongerbil said:
Personally speaking, it was the flimsy excuse bit that turned me off. We don't really need to have one, and it feels hypocritical to say that we are purely offering our services because we want to help other megucas, and then turning around and selling our services at a cost. And, personally speaking, I would prefer that we stick to our guns about the altruism issue than to purposefully give our actions an ulterior shadow just fit her existing worldview.
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Our services are extremely valuable. But it's a sad fact of the world that if we hand out our services for free, then people will value them less (this doesn't change the actual value of our services, just their perceived value). However, if we charge for our services to people who can pay (and still give free cleansing to those who are completely destitute), then we can expand our influence and ultimately help more people. In the long run it is more altruistic to charge for our services, as long as we're fair about it.

And please everyone: don't devalue Kyouko's worth as a melee instructor by treating melee training as an unimportant side issue. Kyouko is the number one close combat meguca in the area. Getting training from her should be worth a lot to us. It's may not be the most important facet of this conversation, but Kyouko is awesome at melee and we should respect that.
 
Kinematics said:
[x] <sigh>
[x] <Hand over Jane> I noticed you didn't have any grief seeds on you.
-[x] Don't give it to Kyuubey; I can keep recycling it for you as long as you hold onto it. Half-full seems like it can last forever, or call me within 24 hours if it ever reaches full. I can be here in 15 minutes if I use the casual flight; less, if it's a rush.
-[x] You can give it back when you've got a few spare seeds of your own to work with.
[x] So... You wanna talk about what's bothering you so much right now? You look like you need someone to yell at.
-[x] Or maybe a bit of sparring? Let off some steam?
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That actually seems pretty good, if a bit...goal focused, but is there a reason we're not asking Yuma to keep an eye on Kyouko and make sure she cleanses in that? She's clearly putting keeping Yuma's gem clean at a much higher priority than her own, which while a good sign in some ways isn't something we want to let stand.

Kyouko is good at what she does, but that doesn't matter very much to us when we have Mami of all people as a mentor. Yes, melee training is nice but we'd live without it since Sabrina's focus is mostly on being a very nasty caster.Charging for our services is pointless and our services being devalued is a good thing. We can expand anyway. Kyouko is pretty much the textbook example of someone who can't afford it, and it'd be pointless and downright unpleasant to needlessly add conditions or charge.
 
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boonerunner said:
Our services are extremely valuable. But it's a sad fact of the world that if we hand out our services for free, then people will value them less (this doesn't change the actual value of our services, just their perceived value). However, if we charge for our services to people who can pay (and still give free cleansing to those who are completely destitute), then we can expand our influence and ultimately help more people. In the long run it is more altruistic to charge for our services, as long as we're fair about it.
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There can be no equivalent exchange. Our services are priceless; hers are moderately lucrative, as in it'd be mildly inconvenient to find another teacher willing to teach us this second-rate means of hurting people and breaking things.

I don't think charging for our services has significant bearing on our ability to influence people.
 
[x]Mention that Sendai's been resolved.
[x]Offer a regular grief seed. Ask to cleanse again too if it seems like she needs it. Give an open offer for her to drop by for cleanses.
-[x] If she presses us for a reason, restate what we said during our first meeting about just wanting to help megucas.
- [x] If you really can't stand it as charity, then teach he how to fight in melee. I'm new to this and you must have some pointers.
[x]Telepathy Yuma. Try and make sure your big sis cleanses her own gem too, okay?
[x] Also, give talking to Mami again some thought. She needs her friends after everything, and knowing what she does now... Well she blames herself for what happened to you and the others she recruited.

thagguy said:
The cost is just a cover because Kyoko is being stubborn and we are offering a compromise to do something we want to do anyway im exchange for...something we want to do anyway. We are not Rorschach; not compromising on something as minor as this is silly.
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Well, yeah, I know that. My position is that the cover is unnecessary because one way or the other she's still going to accept our cleanses, and going full on about altruism reinforces what we've already told her in the past and doesn't give Kyouko more reasons to doubt us than there already is.
 
Ugolino said:
That actually seems pretty good, if a bit...goal focused, but is there a reason we're not asking Yuma to keen an eye on Kyouko and make sure she cleanses in that?
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It feels cheesy. Yuma obviously cares a great deal about Kyouko, just as Kyouko cares about her. Telling them to take care of each other seems... horribly patronizing.

We're saying flat out, "Call me if there's trouble", so in a worst case we can very much expect Yuma to call us if something bad happens. Beyond that, I don't want to force things on her.

Edit: And yeah, this isn't the end of the conversation, so there may be a more appropriate time to say something like that.
 
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Kinematics said:
It feels cheesy. Yuma obviously cares a great deal about Kyouko, just as Kyouko cares about her. Telling them to take care of each other seems... horribly patronizing.

We're saying flat out, "Call me if there's trouble", so in a worst case we can very much expect Yuma to call us if something bad happens. Beyond that, I don't want to force things on her.

Edit: And yeah, this isn't the end of the conversation, so there may be a more appropriate time to say something like that.
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It would...if she didn't clearly need it. Kyouko is placing Yuma's gem above her own, that's unlikely to change unless we say something, and it reinforces that we care. There's no reason not to make a suggestion.
 
FlatlineAskari said:
There can be no equivalent exchange. Our services are priceless; hers are moderately lucrative, as in it'd be mildly inconvenient to find another teacher willing to teach us this second-rate means of hurting people and breaking things.

I don't think charging for our services has significant bearing on our ability to influence people.
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Equivalent exchange is not about the inherent value of services being exactly equal according to some abstract metric. It simply means that the each side values the services that they receive more than the services that they give out. In this case, we value the combat instruction more than the (temporary) loss of a grief seed and the effort required to cleanse Kyouko and Yuma. And Kyouko values the cleansing more than the time it will take to train us. So the trade is equivalent and everyone gains.
 
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Kinematics said:
[x] <sigh>
[x] <Hand over Jane> I noticed you didn't have any grief seeds on you.
-[x] Don't give it to Kyuubey; I can keep recycling it for you as long as you hold onto it. Half-full seems like it can last forever, or call me within 24 hours if it ever reaches full. I can be here in 15 minutes if I use the casual flight; less, if it's a rush.
-[x] You can give it back when you've got a few spare seeds of your own to work with.
--[x] Various response answers, depending on reaction:
---[x] Do I really need a reason?
---[x] Obviously I don't really need it, though there's still things I can use it for. So yeah, I'd eventually like it back, but it's not a big deal right now.
---[x] No, I insist. No, really, I insist. Take the damn seed, Kyouko.
[x] So... You wanna talk about what's bothering you so much right now? You look like you need someone to yell at.
-[x] Or maybe a bit of sparring? Let off some steam?
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We should probably push Kyouko to tell us what's wrong before we offer her a grief seed. Obviously, Kyouko has some grief management issues (it's simple to point that the dark soul gem and lack of grief seeds), but what is the cause of the problem? Lack of witches? Other meguca over-hunting the area or stealing grief seeds? A fight with a super-dangerous witch that drained all of her resources? Lack of time for hunting due to keeping Yuma safe? Something else? Knowing what's wrong will color how we offer the grief seed, so we should find that out first.

Communication is one method that is a healthy effective at dealing with anger; asking Kyouko to express her anger and frustration is well and good. But yelling is usually not healthy.

Physical Exercise is also a healthy response, but I'd be a bit leery of sparring with Kyouko until she cools down a bit.
 
We don't have to do that right this instant. We'll have plenty of time to interact with her if she takes the training or any other time. We don't have to build Rome in a day.
 
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The question is do you want to call her out on her "I'm fine" bullshit right now or not? If you do, then actually call her out, and weather the ensuing explosion. If you don't, do like the Kinematics vote and just keep the conversation going. We can't straddle a middle ground, it won't go anywhere without being direct.

[] Really? Because anyone can tell that you're pissed off, tired, hungry, and stressed.


That said, I pretty much agree with Arafan and thagguy that what we have is fine for now.
 
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