@Gadjo
Asking Oriko's bad more for social reasons than anything- and the thing is that like a lot of the other changes in that vote, it just smacks of over-complicating things for its own sake to make a wall of text. We're practically guaranteed to find the Witch normally if it exists. We have no reason to do any of the changed parts of the vote.

@boonerunner
I'd agree...if Mami and Mitakihara weren't a very sore spot for her. She knows that Witches are a danger, and that teams are more efficient...but she's got a lot of baggage where Mami and Mitakihara are concerned. I really think we'd have more luck offering help with a Witch hunt in Kasamino or the marbles and familiars approach.

And what Torg said, yeah. That's another minor problem.
 
Added.

[x]Investigate the glass Witch based on what little you have to go on. Bother Oriko about it if you can't find it. If it takes too long (less than 2 hours remaining before lunch), just have lunch with Mami first.
[x]If you find a Witch, just kill it as fast as possible. You have other priorities today.
[x]Ping Masami and Oriko.
[x]Go to Kasamino at top speed, and ping Kyouko once you're on the outskirts. Ask her where she wants to meet up.
[x]Be civil. Update her on recent events. Everything from what happened with Oriko, to the way things ended in Sendai, and offer a cleanse. Hold off on Masami and the lichbomb for the moment. Ask her how things are.
[/QUOTE]
 
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Asking Oriko's bad more for social reasons than anything- and the thing is that like a lot of the other changes in that vote, it just smacks of over-complicating things for its own sake to make a wall of text. We're practically guaranteed to find the Witch normally if it exists. We have no reason to do any of the changed parts of the vote.
Okay, so if I'm reading this correctly, you're concern is that it will annoy Oriko and give her a headache? We've been asking her quite a few things, and she seems to understand why our requests are important. I don't think there will be any social damage done there. So far as over-complication, Firn doesn't mind the longvots, so it should be fine.

Pre-edit: ninja'd.
 
It's redundant, and adds to the "ask Oriko about everything short of what breakfast to have" approach, which is less than ideal.
Yes, it's less than ideal. Sadly, it's by far the single most valuable piece of our current information network. Guess what a huge part of the Kyouko draft discussion is about? Working on expanding our information network. It just happens to be only the first piece of what will hopefully be a more expansive and distributed means of understanding the world around us.

I actually agree, in that I don't like the idea of asking Oriko about every little thing (single point of failure). That's part of the reason I made it a last-resort option. However, it's still an option because the potential for finding the magical girl before she witches out is more important. Wanting to rely less on Oriko is also why I'm looking into other ways to expand our information-gathering abilities.
 
Regardless, the listed approach for talking to Kyouko is all but guaranteed to explode in our faces. While Kyouko, in theory, might be a source of information about going-ons, that isn't the way to do it. Starting off with the Mami mention, then talking about things that really, really don't matter to her rather than cutting to the chase and just asking her as a favor to let us know if she hears anything strange or if someone's causing trouble...

We DEFINITELY don't want to talk about personal desires trumping egalitarian sharing to the girl who gave speeches about looking out for yourself first in canon.

The goal's sensible, it's just the approach that seems like it'll end badly.
 
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Did I miss Firn warning us about spamming her or something?

Way I see it, we have two choices in the event we don't find glass girl:

Don't ask, glass girl probably witches out and dies.
Ask, either:
glass girl lives and possibly joins us.
Or Oriko finds nothing and is mildly annoyed that we gave her a headache.

I would quite like to add another member to our band, and a newbie magical girl we can show the ropes would be nice. Someone we could teach all kinds of things, get actual loyalty that's not contingent on deals or pacts or threats or limpeting. Besides, it gives us all an excuse to min/max a new powerset which is always fun.

Edit: Ugo makes a good point, let's get back to figuring out how to get Kyouko on side. I think we should go for bland inoffensive stuff with Kyouko on this update, so we can make our pitch next update based on her reaction.
 
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Did I miss Firn warning us about spamming her or something?

Way I see it, we have two choices in the event we don't find glass girl:

Don't ask, glass girl probably witches out and dies.
Ask, either:
glass girl lives and possibly joins us.
Or Oriko finds nothing and is mildly annoyed that we gave her a headache.

I would quite like to add another member to our band, and a newbie magical girl we can show the ropes would be nice. Someone we could teach all kinds of things, get actual loyalty that's not contingent on deals or pacts or threats or limpeting. Besides, it gives us all an excuse to min/max a new powerset which is always fun.

Edit: Ugo makes a good point, let's get back to figuring out how to get Kyouko on side. I think we should go for bland inoffensive stuff with Kyouko on this update, so we can make our pitch next update based on her reaction.
Saving her would be nice, yeah...but I suspect it won't happen.
 
I summon frankenvote, in attack mode! took KIne's vote, but didn't mention Mami. We'll see if it's appropriate to mention her once the conversation's started, since I don't intend to spend the entire brunch on that one line.

[x] Let Kyouko know you want to do a little investigation of something first, but will head over to meet her at about 9:30 to 10:00 (barring anything unusual happening).
[x] Begin search for the glass witch/magical girl, starting from Homura's recorded location.
-[x] Use Gauntlet to boost scan range to speed things up (determine new max range)
-[x] Check nearest school (assuming it's not MMS)
-[x] If it's found as a witch, just do a quick kill
-[x] If unable to find anything within 30-40 minutes, check in with Oriko
--[x] Good morning! I'm searching for something, and wondered if you could give me any pointers.
-[x] If we find the magical girl, put further plans on hold while we deal with this
[x] Give Kyouko warning when we're about to head out. Should be there in a few minutes. SAL002 on its way.
[x] Treat Kyoko to brunch, and give standard cleanses.
[x]Be civil, update her on Sendai, the events leading to it and following it, and the Oriko situation. Ask her how she's doing.
 
Right, angles for convincing Kyouko at the update after this one.

I think a good option would be to offer a loose alliance. Subtly flatter her by pretending our force of 5 magical girls is comparable to her force of two. She will want to keep her freedom to do whatever and will likely reject any offer that leads to her relying solely on us for cleanses because she doesn't like to be dependent. Her weak point is her little sis. Reality has had time to sink in on that count. She's either running ragged trying to keep enough seeds for both of them while fighting alone, or extremely unhappy about Yuma having to fight with her. Easing this burden is our major bargaining chip. We can give Yuma a life without fighting, and that is worth a great deal.

Other angles include friends for Yuma. Life as a magical girl is lonely after all.

Our problem is that we cannot actually ask for the thing that we want in return: her and Mami reconciling. Therefore we should ask for something that gives a good chance of the two meeting again. Perhaps have her join us in future conflicts, or train us in combat in Mitkihara. How could she resist an offer to eat free cake after a hard training session? We would also want access to Yuma's healing magic, just because it's really useful.
 
Right, angles for convincing Kyouko at the update after this one.

I think a good option would be to offer a loose alliance. Subtly flatter her by pretending our force of 5 magical girls is comparable to her force of two. She will want to keep her freedom to do whatever and will likely reject any offer that leads to her relying solely on us for cleanses because she doesn't like to be dependent. Her weak point is her little sis. Reality has had time to sink in on that count. She's either running ragged trying to keep enough seeds for both of them while fighting alone, or extremely unhappy about Yuma having to fight with her. Easing this burden is our major bargaining chip. We can give Yuma a life without fighting, and that is worth a great deal.

Other angles include friends for Yuma. Life as a magical girl is lonely after all.

Our problem is that we cannot actually ask for the thing that we want in return: her and Mami reconciling. Therefore we should ask for something that gives a good chance of the two meeting again. Perhaps have her join us in future conflicts, or train us in combat in Mitkihara. How could she resist an offer to eat free cake after a hard training session? We would also want access to Yuma's healing magic, just because it's really useful.
I think we're better off just flat out trying to befriend her. Offer help. Hang out. Deception won't really work. Just be friendly and don't let her being prickly discourage us, and we'll get through to her eventually. Inviting her to Mitakihara...seems like a long term thing since >Mami.

Too many bells and whistles, but eh.

[x] Let Kyouko know you want to do a little investigation of something first, but will head over to meet her at about 9:30 to 10:00 (barring anything unusual happening).
[x] Begin search for the glass witch/magical girl, starting from Homura's recorded location.
-[x] Use Gauntlet to boost scan range to speed things up (determine new max range)
-[x] Check nearest school (assuming it's not MMS)
-[x] If it's found as a witch, just do a quick kill
-[x] If unable to find anything within 30-40 minutes, check in with Oriko
--[x] Good morning! I'm searching for something, and wondered if you could give me any pointers.
-[x] If we find the magical girl, put further plans on hold while we deal with this
[x] Give Kyouko warning when we're about to head out. Should be there in a few minutes. SAL002 on its way.
[x] Treat Kyoko to brunch, and give standard cleanses.
[x]Be civil, update her on Sendai, the events leading to it and following it, and the Oriko situation. Ask her how she's doing.
 
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Since I apparently need to be more explicit in expressing my proposals, allow me to break down the general sets of issues I'm trying to work on.


The question that we must inevitably expect from Kyouko: Why are we here? What do we really want from her? And the unasked question in the background: Did Mami put us up to this, or is it in some way related to her?

This must be given an answer. It's been deflected before, but eventually it will go beyond Kyouko's tolerance levels. If we don't actually have a reason to be constantly bugging her, offering her things "just because", then we need to get the hell off her lawn.

cutting to the chase and just asking her as a favor to let us know if she hears anything strange or if someone's causing trouble

We can ask, however approaching it this way fails on many counts because it refuses to address multiple underlying issues.

Why are we asking Kyouko specifically for this information? What's so special about her (that somehow isn't related to Mami) that you keep coming over here?

Why should Kyouko bother doing something like this for you? Is the cleansing offer just blackmail? Or is this a manipulation based on our relationship with Mami?

Why should she trust us? She's willing to give the benefit of the doubt at the moment, but it's very clear that the level of trust she's giving us is razor thin.

Why are you expecting Kyouko to find strange goings on, or people causing trouble, in Kasamino in the first place? You don't even live here. If you're expecting trouble to show up here, what are you doing to cause that? (Back to the trust issue.)


The second point of order is what we actually expect to gain in this conversation. Telling her about the current status of things could be done over telepathy. What is so important that we need to speak to her in person about?

Like many others, Kyouko has a very particular world view: The food chain, watching out for #1, etc. If we're not doing this to gain something, we're either stupid, or trying to scam her. If we can't actually express what we're after, we haven't really moved out of one of those two categories. And always, always, in the back of her head: What is Mami's connection to all this?


And the third point is the same as the second: What do we expect to gain from this? How does this relate to our long-term goals? How can we make use of these connections and deals to move forward on our eventual path to breaking the system? This ties back to my post a few pages back, regarding actually acting to create our own safety and better environment, instead of reacting to whatever the crisis-of-the-day is.

In this case, it's politics (with hopeful trend towards comrades) and intelligence. Learning the art of give-and-take, offering favors and developing trust and loyalty. Creating an opening to find out what Kyouko herself really wants, so that we can help her with that. And, if we're lucky, maybe some SCIENCE and training tossed in later.


So, given all of the above, how do you approach the situation? What information do you offer? What vulnerabilities do you expose? Where do you press forward, and where do you give way? Do you flatter and appease? Or push and demand? What sort of person are we? Are we even the type of person Kyouko can be friends with? We want to construct an understanding of ourselves for Kyouko that she is both able and willing to accept.
 
I think we're better off just flat out trying to befriend her. Offer help. Hang out. Deception won't really work. Just be friendly and don't let her being prickly discourage us, and we'll get through to her eventually. Inviting her to Mitakihara...seems like a long term thing since >Mami.

I'd like to offer help, but I'm pretty sure she won't take it without giving something in return.
 
So, given all of the above, how do you approach the situation? What information do you offer? What vulnerabilities do you expose? Where do you press forward, and where do you give way? Do you flatter and appease? Or push and demand? What sort of person are we? Are we even the type of person Kyouko can be friends with? We want to construct an understanding of ourselves for Kyouko that she is both able and willing to accept.
If she asks, I expect to be able to vote for an answer, since we haven't really agreed as a thread as to what our answer would be. I personally think saying that we're building a network of allies and friends to defend Mitakihara from Walpurgisnacht could go over well. Regardless, this should be addressed next vote. We want to get a proper read of the conversation and tone before we start voting on it.
 
I'd like to offer help, but I'm pretty sure she won't take it without giving something in return.
Just say the offer's open, and put actions to words. Get her used to us, don't pull a Sayaka, and we should be able to win her over given time.

We're going to befriend Kyouko. Be someone she can get on with, even if she thinks we're naive. Her "rawr I'm a badass" is a front as much as anything Don't push her. Trying to look at it as "muh politics" or being pushy will make things go badly. Just make it clear that, yes, we're this much of an idiot and would settle for just helping her and hanging out. We want to know if there's trouble in the area because fixing it is one of our goals. We're asking her because we know her, and it's her turf so she might hear things she haven't.

There's Walpurgisnacht, but that's not why we're trying to befriend her. We're going to kill it anyway. We just want to get on well with everyone.
 
We'll see what we see eh? If she's getting desperate hunting seeds for two the offer of help and friendship could go over very well.
 
And changed to

[x] Let Kyouko know you want to do a little investigation of something first, but will head over to meet her at about 9:30 to 10:00 (barring anything unusual happening).
[x] Begin search for the glass witch/magical girl, starting from Homura's recorded location.
-[x] Use Gauntlet to boost scan range to speed things up (determine new max range)
-[x] Check nearest school (assuming it's not MMS)
-[x] If it's found as a witch, just do a quick kill
-[x] If unable to find anything within 30-40 minutes, check in with Oriko
--[x] Good morning! I'm searching for something, and wondered if you could give me any pointers.
-[x] If we find the magical girl, put further plans on hold while we deal with this
[x] Give Kyouko warning when we're about to head out. Should be there in a few minutes. SAL002 on its way.
[x] Treat Kyoko to brunch, and give standard cleanses.
[x]Be civil, update her on Sendai, the events leading to it and following it, and the Oriko situation. Ask her how she's doing.
 
There's Walpurgisnacht, but that's not why we're trying to befriend her. We're going to kill it anyway. We just want to get on well with everyone.
I don't know about the rest of you, but Walpurgisnacht is the main reason that I want to reach out to as many meguca as possible within the next 3 weeks. I remember watching PMMM and that thing scared the crap out of me just watching it on a TV screen. Experiencing it for real would be orders of magnitude worse: we want as much support as possible when we take it on. It's true that we do have additional reasons to want to befriend Kyouko (reconciling Kyouko and Mami is one such reason, getting access to a talented healer is another), but of our current goals, Walpurgisnacht is one with the most urgent known deadline.

We can't tiptoe around the topic of Mami when we talk to Kyouko; if we ignore the problem and just expect the two of them to suddenly resolve their differences and magically become best friends again, then we will be sadly disappointed. Honesty is the best option here. If Kyouko starts working with us more frequently, then she's also going to be interacting with Mami more. We would like for the two of them to get along but we understand that there's a lot of history there, so can they at least agree to be cordial and work together against a common threat without blowing up?

To figure out the terms of negotiation, we need to find out what Kyouko wants. All people everywhere need food, shelter, companionship, and security. For a meguca, that includes grief cleansing. Kyouko needs it and we are the cheapest source of it (i.e. interacting with us is much safer than witch/familiar farming); we can also offer to help protect Kyouko and Yuma against anything that threatens them. But it would still be polite to ask Kyouko what else she needs/wants; she might have other specific needs that we don't know about. The other half of the negotiation is what we want from her. In the short term we want support against Walpurgisnacht (and other threats) and in the long term we want to create a network of meguca so that we can be informed about potential threats ahead of time and ultimately so that we're able to control ALL of the grief. We certainly don't want to threaten Kyouko, but a dry accounting of how we handled Oriko and Sendai situations should give her plenty of respect for our power so that she can be confident that we can uphold our end an agreement.

Even the most basic trade agreement (three full grief seeds in exchange for two empty grief seeds) should be fair enough to reassure Kyouko. We gain one seed (at no risk) from the exchange and she gains two seeds (which reduces her risk in fighting witches to 1/3 of its previous value), so it's an obvious benefit to both parties.
 
The simple truth is, we're trying to improve the well-being of all the magical girls in the Mitakihara area. Items like reconciliation can, ultimately, fall under that fairly broad umbrella.

We don't need to search ourselves for an ulterior motive to present to Kyoko when we don't really have one.
 
@boonerunner
Walpurgis is a side show. A potentially dangerous one, but a sideshow all the same. The three of us could win if we had to. If we were playing any other meguca, you'd be right, but Sabrina is stupidly overpowered.

We should want to befriend Kyouko for her own sake and for her value as a friend to Mami- any combat benefit is really secondary here and we could do just fine without her when Walpurgisnacht arrives.

Kyouko's hardly going to be honest about what she wants- mostly because she's not really honest to herself about it.
 
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