Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Onmur · Jan 23, 2015

Crasian01 said:
Mami's not taking the blame for anything. She's very explicitly stating that we shouldn't blame ourselves. The difference in meaning is massive, and the idea that there's some sort of specific way that she's supposed to feel about the situation strikes me as alarming. Frankly, she's right. It's in our nature to try to save everyone. That's just the way this quest works and the way we, as players work. Are we to deny our own nature and reject our own self? Because if anything, THAT would be unhealthy.

Don't put words in my mouth. There's no specific way to deal thing things. There's many ways things can go and this is not an optimal one. Some progress was done. All I said is that it's nowhere near optimal.

"Sabrina," she says gently. "You wouldn't be you if you didn't do what you thought was the right thing. I'm sorry for asking that you stop. Because you care, Sabrina, and that's nothing to be ashamed of."

How is this not taking blame? We're apologizing for not taking her words into consideration and she's in turn apologizing for saying those words.

Gadjo · Jan 23, 2015

It does suck pretty hard that our apology accidentally guilted Mami into apologizing for daring to question us. We might want to reveal that we're still hiding some things before she builds a shrine to us in her living room.

Ugolino · Jan 23, 2015

Gadjo said:
It does suck pretty hard that our apology accidentally guilted Mami into apologizing for daring to question us. We might want to reveal that we're still hiding some things before she builds a shrine to us in her living room.

We...really need to make things right by Mami.

Not quite sure how to avoid a repeat of that for the "tell her we're hiding things" part of it.This doesn't quite seem to do it.

[]Wake up a bit earlier than usual.
-[]Eastern breakfast for the Mumi. Tea for the Mumi. If she wakes up, try and persuade her to get some rest...but if that doesn't work, make it together?
-[]Ask her what she'd like to do today. Does she feel okay with going to school today? She shouldn't feel that she has to, but does she want to?
[]Ping Homura and let her know what's happening now- and what happened. The war ended. No one died. The groups are more or less at peace and we're going back to cleanse later. We "won".
[] Madoka, and Sayaka. If Mami went to school, ask them not to bother Mami too much. She had a rough day. We promise to explain everything, soon. ~~but for now, they should just stay away from Kyubey if they see him.~~
[]If she didn't go to school and if she asks...tell her the truth like we said we were going to the night before. There are things we haven't told her yet. Some of them aren't just ours to tell, some of them we're not too sure about ourselves, and some of them we're not even sure how to talk about. We were too scared to tell her a lot of this, and we still are. We're not sure how to explain a lot of it. But she deserves to know all of it, and we promise that we will tell her everything. We can start now with what we can, if she wants.

FlatlineAskari · Jan 23, 2015

Onmur said:
How is this not taking blame? We're apologizing for not taking her words into consideration and she's in turn apologizing for saying those words.

"I'm sorry, Mami," you say softly.

"What for, Sabrina?" Mami asks, equally softly. She sounds puzzled.

She isn't taking blame because she doesn't think there's blame to be apportioned here, nor taken.

Crasian01 · Jan 23, 2015

Onmur said:
Don't put words in my mouth. There's no specific way to deal thing things. There's many ways things can go and this is not an optimal one. Some progress was done. All I said is that it's nowhere near optimal.

How is this not taking blame? We're apologizing for not taking her words into consideration and she's in turn apologizing for saying those words.

Because those are standard phrases used when comforting people? Maybe you've experienced differently in your life, where people only say things like that when they deeply, truly feel them, but I'm pretty sure I only know a few instances where anyone has said that to me and they've actually felt bad about what they did.

@Gadjo
Same as above?

Like, I dunno, maybe my Incubator is acting up again? Both of your comments are coming out of left field so hard I feel like the ball smacked me and sent me flying into the stadium seats.

Ugolino · Jan 23, 2015

[]Wake up earlier than usual.
-[]Prepare an eastern breakfast.
[]Ask her what she'd like to do. Does she want to go to school today?
[]Ping and update Homura once Mami decides
[]If Mami didn't go to school
-[]tell her the truth like we said we were going to the night before.
-[]There are things we haven't told her yet. Some of them aren't just ours to tell, some of them we're not too sure about ourselves, and some of them we're not even sure how to talk about. We were too scared to tell her a lot of this, and we still are. But she deserves to know all of it, and we promise that we will tell her everything. We can start now with what we can, if she wants.

Onmur · Jan 23, 2015

FlatlineAskari said:
She isn't taking blame because she doesn't think there's blame to be apportioned here, nor taken.

Whaaaat? That part of the conversation can't prove your point at all.

"I'm sorry, Mami,"

That's a non-sequitur if there ever was one.

Take into account what Sabrina represents in Mami's mind. Right now, Mami's dependant on Sabrina, she needs her and she fears abandonement. Mami doesn't want to even grasp that Sabrina might have serious problems nor that there could be some serious issues in the Sabrina-Mami relationship. The fact that she doesn't think there's any blame to be taken is a big part of the issue.

We want Mami and Sabrina to be friends. Friends need to call each other on their shit. We won't be getting there for a while, but it's something that needs to happen.

Crasian01 said:
Because those are standard phrases used when comforting people? Maybe you've experienced differently in your life, where people only say things like that when they deeply, truly feel them, but I'm pretty sure I only know a few instances where anyone has said that to me and they've actually felt bad about what they did.

But we're trying to go into deep, truly felt issues. Yes, when some not-that-important problem comes up that's fine.

But when we're talking serious problems, it doesn't fly. It's ignoring the problem, trying to make the tears go away, when those tears and pain are necessary in order to work through the problem.

There's some life experience here for me. This 'No, I'm sorry," doesn't lead to good places. It's a roadblock in between a problem and it's resolution. It's one person that doesn't want to accept there's a problem to even address. You can't solve things like that.

Ompa60 · Jan 23, 2015

Ugolino said:
[] Madoka, and Sayaka. Ask them not to bother Mami too much if she went to school. She had a rough day. We promise to explain everything soon.

If we are going to talk to Sayaka and Madoka about this stuff at all (and I'm not sure we should right now), shouldn't we be asking them to be supportive of her rather than practically asking them to avoid her?

Ugolino · Jan 23, 2015

Ompa60 said:
If we are going to talk to Sayaka and Madoka about this stuff at all (and I'm not sure we should right now), shouldn't we be asking them to be supportive of her rather than practically asking them to avoid her?

Yeah, you're completely right. I was a bit unhappy with the line and took it out...Not sure what to say there, so probably best not to try nudging them towards anything but their normal behavior right now. (ie: don't contact them yet)

That said, we are going to need to talk to them about Kyubey being a shit in the near, near future and in the medium to long term I think we should REALLY want Mami to at least be there for that conversation and to handle some of it herself if she can. Call it closure/reinforcing that Madoka and Sayaka don't blame her for things.

Crasian01 · Jan 23, 2015

@Onmur

Ah, so it IS my Incubator acting up again. In terms of solving things, I agree with you. For what it's worth, I've had far too many experiences where it's an important convo but fuck if my opinion mattered.

Onmur · Jan 23, 2015

Crasian01 said:
@Onmur

Ah, so it IS my Incubator acting up again. In terms of solving things, I agree with you. For what it's worth, I've had far too many experiences where it's an important convo but fuck if my opinion mattered.

I won't go so far as saying you're wrong. I can only understand this as far as I've experienced it with the people in my life, which are rather very different from these magical characters from a country with different cultural values.

If it were me, I would try and 'play' myself as the 'bad guy' while laying down all the shit I've done and that works with my family and friends. There's some anger, then understanding and doing things better. I'm also rather sure that doing that would break the Mami pretty damn bad, so thank god for thread consensus.

Gadjo · Jan 23, 2015

[X] Ugolino.

FlatlineAskari · Jan 23, 2015

Onmur said:
Whaaaat? That part of the conversation can't prove your point at all.

"I'm sorry, Mami,"

That's a non-sequitur if there ever was one.

Take into account what Sabrina represents in Mami's mind. Right now, Mami's dependant on Sabrina, she needs her and she fears abandonement. Mami doesn't want to even grasp that Sabrina might have serious problems nor that there could be some serious issues in the Sabrina-Mami relationship. The fact that she doesn't think there's any blame to be taken is a big part of the issue.

Obviously she thinks we're making a mountain out of a molehill. We fucking well are.
Even taking as read that we were too aggressive, that everything would've worked out fine had we not barged in over objections - she was overly cautious and, bluntly, proven wrong.
It's unreasonable to expect her to be unhappy about us making what was, as it turned out, the right call. No harm, no foul.

Winged Knight · Jan 23, 2015

Wait, is the current vote idea hinting at the Witchbomb?

As much as I want to do right by Mami and help her, this doesn't seem like a good idea to me at all.

Onmur · Jan 23, 2015

FlatlineAskari said:
Obviously she thinks we're making a mountain out of a molehill. We fucking well are.
Even taking as read that we were too aggressive, that everything would've worked out fine had we not barged in over objections - she was overly cautious and, bluntly, proven wrong.
It's unreasonable to expect her to be unhappy about us making what was, as it turned out, the right call. No harm, no foul.

A mountain out of a molehill?

Mami shuffles across the platform, and smiles at you, holding her hand out tentatively. Still anxious, still worried after she disagreed with you earlier.

You blink, and Mami's smile immediately falters, slipping fractionally.

Still worried after she disagreed with you earlier.

The bottom drops out of your stomach, a yawning pit opening. Your stomach begins churning uncomfortably, disquieting worry and self doubt settling in like a leaden weight to gnaw at you.

Mami was barely able to speak up against us just two hours ago. That was a noted improvement.

When we decided to get into this mess, she was against it. Our course of action was then telling her we would get involved into this mess and she would come with us. We knew she would not refuse us then, and she did not. Once we decide something, she can't even try to change our minds about it, our will just about completely overrides hers. That's a big problem.

Gadjo · Jan 23, 2015

FlatlineAskari said:
Obviously she thinks we're making a mountain out of a molehill. We fucking well are.
Even taking as read that we were too aggressive, that everything would've worked out fine had we not barged in over objections - she was overly cautious and, bluntly, proven wrong.
It's unreasonable to expect her to be unhappy about us making what was, as it turned out, the right call. No harm, no foul.

We weren't trying to apologize for interfering in Sendai, we're apologizing for being so domineering.

Granted we already apologized for that.

Winged Knight said:
Wait, is the current vote idea hinting at the Witchbomb?

As much as I want to do right by Mami and help her, this doesn't seem like a good idea to me at all.

It's just hinting that we have additional information to give her. The issue is that if we just wait a week and witchbomb her with no warning whatever progress she's made will be undone by the feelings of betrayal she'll have because we never even hinted that there was something worse.

Ugolino · Jan 23, 2015

Winged Knight said:
Wait, is the current vote idea hinting at the Witchbomb?

As much as I want to do right by Mami and help her, this doesn't seem like a good idea to me at all.

The Witchbomb is not something we are dropping right now under any circumstances. If anything, we'd start with "we threatened Kirika to get Oriko to back down" and metaknowledge. The intent's more to let Mami know there's stuff we have to tell her in the future.

Witchbombing Mami right now shouldn't be on the table, yeah.

'Lement · Jan 23, 2015

@Winged Knight: read the pre-update pages. There is a sizeable consensus that we should tell Mami that we're still keeping some secrets, and that is in plural.

That said, it is someone else's vote. Feel free to make your own.

Agent Whiskers · Jan 23, 2015

Ugolino said:
That said, we are going to need to talk to them about Kyubey being a shit in the near, near future and in the medium to long term I think we should REALLY want Mami to at least be there for that conversation and to handle some of it herself if she can. Call it closure/reinforcing that Madoka and Sayaka don't blame her for things.

Why don't we do just do that today? That really isn't something that we should put off any longer, especially after what Homura told us.

Winged Knight · Jan 23, 2015

Gadjo said:
It's just hinting that we have additional information to give her. The issue is that if we just wait a week and witchbomb her with no warning whatever progress she's made will be undone by the feelings of betrayal she'll have because we never even hinted that there was something worse.

I'm of the opinion we should avoid the subject for as long as we can, because there's really no good way to go about it at all. But that's just me.

Ugolino said:
The Witchbomb is not something we are dropping right now under any circumstances. If anything, we'd start with "we threatened Kirika to get Oriko to back down" and metaknowledge. The intent's more to let Mami know there's stuff we have to tell her in the future.

Witchbombing Mami right now shouldn't be on the table, yeah.

Fair enough, I guess? I'm more a casual reader instead of a voter, so I've not got too much stake in things. Just have some reservations, is all.

Ugolino · Jan 23, 2015

Agent Whiskers said:
Why don't we do just do that today? That really isn't something that we should put off any longer, especially after what Homura told us.

The plan IS to do it today, at least as I see it, but we should want Mami to help break the news if possible- for her sake- and in any event we're not doing it first thing in the morning. I trust Homu to stop a stupid contract during one school day and that's all the time we need.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Jan 23, 2015

I don't think either of you are wrong.

@Onmur , to apologize for a specific result would be wrong. If we bring up everything and Mami still doesn't think we've done anything wrong, then it is what it is. If we were in her shoes, isn't that what we'd say? That even if some mis-steps were made, at the end, there isn't anything to apologize for. Part of the concept of apology is to place judgment in the matter in the other party's hands.

Haven't we implied that there's been nothing unforgivable every time we've comforted Homura, too?

Yeah, it wasn't perfect. I'm not happy that she apologized back, but in the end, it's ok if she's changed her mind since she objected. The outcome wasn't a disaster, and it matters less than breaking our illusion of perfection and, if I dare say so, the actual apology in the first place.

That said, I'm glad we got the tearful improvised apology out of the way, because it shines a lot of light over the real problems.

FIRSTLY, part of the problem is we were apologizing over what we did and where it got us. But really, we can't be too sorry that Mami came with us, or the outcomes of our actions. I feel some guilt over how Akiko was at the end, but even that wasn't really our fault, just a culmination of things that ended with us.

Where we went wrong was with methods and motives. And we didn't communicate that well at all. That we cared so much about the result that we don't care, or to be more accurate, don't think about how it was achieved. And that we want that to change, because it will mean we stop imposing ourselves on everyone we know without taking away the caring part.

Secondly, Mami doesn't want to place any blame on us. And with less-consequential matters, she can get away with it. But if we raise, say, the trust issue, she won't be able to maintain that. So we need to get to actually uncomfortable subjects here.

Thirdly, framing things as an apology, in the "I'm sorry" sense is actually less good than framing it in our perspective, because it puts expectations on Mami that we don't want. We were wrong about a whole lot of things, and if we say we're wrong for them rather than jumping to "I'm sorry" first it makes the whole thing much harder to dismiss.

Kinematics · Jan 23, 2015

Re: The current apology --

I even explicitly noted that in one of my posts, that the apology shouldn't be done in such a way as to try to gain sympathy, in the "the thing you're apologizing for isn't really your fault" kind of way. However, not being part of the vote itself, I guess it didn't really carry over. Still, heartfelt feelings are fine; just need to get to the point of facing the underlying issues rather than surface platitudes.

Onmur · Jan 23, 2015

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I don't think either of you are wrong.

@Onmur , to apologize for a specific result would be wrong. If we bring up everything and Mami still doesn't think we've done anything wrong, then it is what it is. If we were in her shoes, isn't that what we'd say? That even if some mis-steps were made, at the end, there isn't anything to apologize for. Part of the concept of apology is to place judgment in the matter in the other party's hands.

I don't know. I, personally would consider whether the other person is wrong completely in a completely selfish way first, and in how it feels for the other person second. Say, 'what is this person apologizing for? Do I care about that shit?' goes first, 'do they care about this shit?' goes second. As far as thread consensus goes, I guess we could end up doing just what Mami's doing. I don't know.

Haven't we implied that there's been nothing unforgivable every time we've comforted Homura, too?

I wouldn't judge Homura and Sabrina the same way. Sabrina's position of power is just... So much higher than Homura's. Homura's broken. Sabrina's maybe abusing her power.

Yeah, it wasn't perfect. I'm not happy that she apologized back, but in the end, it's ok if she's changed her mind since she objected. The outcome wasn't a disaster, and it matters less than breaking our illusion of perfection and, if I dare say so, the actual apology in the first place.

Some progress was done, yes. Maybe that's enough.

FIRSTLY, part of the problem is we were apologizing over what we did and where it got us. But really, we can't be too sorry that Mami came with us, or the outcomes of our actions. I feel some guilt over how Akiko was at the end, but even that wasn't really our fault, just a culmination of things that ended with us.

Where we went wrong was with methods and motives. And we didn't communicate that well at all. That we cared so much about the result that we don't care, or to be more accurate, don't think about how it was achieved. And that we want that to change, because it will mean we stop imposing ourselves on everyone we know without taking away the caring part.

Secondly, Mami doesn't want to place any blame on us. And with less-consequential matters, she can get away with it. But if we raise, say, the trust issue, she won't be able to maintain that. So we need to get to actually uncomfortable subjects here.

Thirdly, framing things as an apology, in the "I'm sorry" sense is actually less good than framing it in our perspective, because it puts expectations on Mami that we don't want. We were wrong about a whole lot of things, and if we say we're wrong for them rather than jumping to "I'm sorry" first it makes the whole thing much harder to dismiss.

Agree very much.

Kinematics said:
Re: The current apology --

I even explicitly noted that in one of my posts, that the apology shouldn't be done in such a way as to try to gain sympathy, in the "the thing you're apologizing for isn't really your fault" kind of way. However, not being part of the vote itself, I guess it didn't really carry over. Still, heartfelt feelings are fine; just need to get to the point of facing the underlying issues rather than surface platitudes.

We were such a mess we made Sabrina cry. It couldn't be avoided.

Onmur · Jan 23, 2015

Ugolino said:
The Witchbomb is not something we are dropping right now under any circumstances. If anything, we'd start with "we threatened Kirika to get Oriko to back down" an

About that, we need to decide how we're going to phrase it, because if we do it wrong, we'll end up dancing around the witch land mine.

We can confess we threatened Kirika with a fate worse than death as a way to threaten Oriko. What fate worse than death was that? Torture? In what form? What could be so bad that Oriko, who was completely OK with both Oriko and Kirika dying, would be terrified enough to comply with our demands?

EDIT: Oh my god. OK. Oriko & Kirika. O & K. Can we call Oriko and Kirika "OK"?

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Archangel of Nutella.

Doka

*feline scrutiny*

Insane Incubator

Archangel of Nutella.

Insane Incubator

Archangel of Nutella.

Doka

*feline scrutiny*

Still just a crazy man with a wolf on his head

Archangel of Nutella.

Doka

Still just a crazy man with a wolf on his head

Archangel of Nutella.

Archangel of Nutella.

feline scrutiny

feline scrutiny