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There is no better time for this mistake
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Unless we share it with her.
I agree that the other votes are a tad too quick. We may be speaking with the Fukushima girls for a few updates, so there's no need to rush.
@Kinematics
1. How badly did this group need the 20 seeds in particular for them to rush over? This is us fishing for information about their group's overall situation.
2. In this case, this really is them paying a debt. That's a statement of fact.
3. The offer is all we need here in terms of trust. Us having the capacity to cleanse is a matter of fact at this point, as is us making an offer.
4. That objection's behind the times. The intervention line's already gone.
5. We're telling Moe our proposal first, then telling her teammates when they wake up. I don't understand that objection at all.
That vote's just a verbose version of the same actions...and Sendai charging a penalty for the damage they caused by fighting on the same side? lolwut?
1. How badly did this group need the 20 seeds in particular for them to rush over? This is us fishing for information about their group's overall situation.
2. In this case, this really is them paying a debt. That's a statement of fact.
3. The offer is all we need here in terms of trust. Us having the capacity to cleanse is a matter of fact at this point, as is us making an offer.
4. That objection's behind the times. The intervention line's already gone.
5. We're telling Moe our proposal first, then telling her teammates when they wake up. I don't understand that objection at all.
That vote's just a verbose version of the same actions...and Sendai charging a penalty for the damage they caused by fighting on the same side? lolwut?
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@Kinematics
You may want to add something about realeasing their ribbon bindings and handing over their soul gems though.
This part is fine.
Why do we need to explain her position? She lost and I doubt she wants to fight us anymore, since she apparently thought the whole thing was stupid to begin with. Or do you mean a general no more fighting thing. Good luck enforcing that without any incentive.
I don't think they are solely responsibel for the collateral damage though, since Sendai probably knew about their plan and didn't stop them.
Kind of unneeded. They'll notice soon enough if, and when how much Sendai still wants to pay them.
We already beat them and they ambushed us. I doubt we looked like we were searching for a reason to fight anyway.
Fine by me.
You may want to add something about realeasing their ribbon bindings and handing over their soul gems though.
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@Kinematics
Okay, so while our votes are actually fairly similiar (wake Fukushima, read them the riot act, make them the offer) there are some major differences.
These three lines in particular (also Firn evidently had a funny response in mind for if we didn't spell out our response to Witchgirl with specific dialogue)
Wouldn't it be fairly obvious who their spokesperson was when we talked to them, if the members that came to help Akiko even had one? Not sure it helps.
This does kind of go without saying if we're not explicitly interfering with the payment- and the second line has problems- namely that Sendai themselves kind of helped to cause this damage.
They ambushed us and we're dictating terms, it's a bit late for that...
Actually, this line's not that bad.
Okay, so while our votes are actually fairly similiar (wake Fukushima, read them the riot act, make them the offer) there are some major differences.
These three lines in particular (also Firn evidently had a funny response in mind for if we didn't spell out our response to Witchgirl with specific dialogue
)Wouldn't it be fairly obvious who their spokesperson was when we talked to them, if the members that came to help Akiko even had one? Not sure it helps.
This does kind of go without saying if we're not explicitly interfering with the payment- and the second line has problems- namely that Sendai themselves kind of helped to cause this damage.
Actually, this line's not that bad.
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Hm, looking over it, aside from tense trouble it is indeed softer.
[X] Kinematics
@o3o: Sabrina doesn't need Mami for her wellbeing, not really. Mami does need Sabrina for her wellbeing, being unable to really disagree with her and somewhat unwilling to let her leave her sight, though she won't probably witch out immediately if we were to leave her permanently. As such, intimate actions that draw Mami closer to Sabrina result in deepening and securing that that dependence where Mami is already our loyal puppet. And asking to and sharing a family name implies treating like a family, something that is very intimate indeed.
This wasn't the case before we effectively ripped Kyubey from Mami as her oldest remaining friend. For many of the posters, getting Mami to reconnect to her old friends and make new ones is a direct goal, in part to stop her hanging on Sabrina's every action. Deepening this bond runs contrary to that.
Not only is it emotionally abusive, but it effectively alters Mami's mind not entirely for her benefit, even if there is some in short term.
However, it is also very cute and heartwarming, if you don't know the context.
[X] Kinematics
@o3o: Sabrina doesn't need Mami for her wellbeing, not really. Mami does need Sabrina for her wellbeing, being unable to really disagree with her and somewhat unwilling to let her leave her sight, though she won't probably witch out immediately if we were to leave her permanently. As such, intimate actions that draw Mami closer to Sabrina result in deepening and securing that that dependence where Mami is already our loyal puppet. And asking to and sharing a family name implies treating like a family, something that is very intimate indeed.
This wasn't the case before we effectively ripped Kyubey from Mami as her oldest remaining friend. For many of the posters, getting Mami to reconnect to her old friends and make new ones is a direct goal, in part to stop her hanging on Sabrina's every action. Deepening this bond runs contrary to that.
Not only is it emotionally abusive, but it effectively alters Mami's mind not entirely for her benefit, even if there is some in short term.
However, it is also very cute and heartwarming, if you don't know the context.
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Why a majestic, wide, white, Witch hat of course!
IIRC you're neglecting to mention that Kyubey itself had a fair part in that near disaster.
FlatlineAskari
*feline scrutiny*
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I dunno; while it remains unclear which of their actions were sanctioned, at the very least Sendai might legitimately be pissed about the fact that Miss Urban Landscaping just kept on trashing their city when her one conscious employer told her to stand down.
It just doesn't seem like Sendai has much room for moral outrage when Akiko brought them here and gave them the green light- and they were on the losing end as well.
There are a lot of things we have reason to regret. Getting Mami away from the toxic little furball that's out to slowly drive her insane and keep her isolated is definitely not one of them. For all of our missteps, that's one in the "win" column.
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@landcollector: Right. That just makes losing him as "friend" worse, by twisting the knife.
We may honestly believe we're right and that our actions were best for everyone involved, but we did supplant Mami's only remaining friend in an emotional disaster and make her dependent on us.
"Greater good" has collateral by definition. Even if it is best choice.
We may honestly believe we're right and that our actions were best for everyone involved, but we did supplant Mami's only remaining friend in an emotional disaster and make her dependent on us.
"Greater good" has collateral by definition. Even if it is best choice.
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Looking at it backwards. Rather than being desperate for a payment, it seems more like paying FedEx more for overnight delivery. $5000? We can be there in a few days. $10000? Sure, is tomorrow fine? $20000? Ok, yeah, we can put everything else aside and make this a rush job.
??? There is virtually no logical connection between an offer by an individual and trust in that individual. It is absolutely not "all we need". Rather, you need trust before an offer can be deemed acceptable. The offer itself does not magically create trust.
No, it's not making any offer at all at this point. It's giving Fukushima the option of whether they even want to stick around and listen to the sales pitch.
We don't know the details of their agreement. Reasonably, one might question whether Sendai even needs to pay them at all, since Fukushima lost. Payment for damage to the city is our beef, but we have no reasonable say in Sendai's payment, and our punishing them directly is the foot-in-mouth thing we're trying to avoid. Thus, create an opening where they might still actually be punished for their incautious actions, without us being the ones to exact that punishment, since we don't really have that authority. Even if Sendai does not charge them, that's a show of mercy that might be considered a favor owed in the future. Either way, they don't get off scot-free.
-- Moving to the second Ugo post
Why would it be obvious to us? We have had literally no interaction with the three of them as a group. Finding out who their spokesperson is acknowledges that authority (ie: gives them a degree of agency), while simultaneously demanding that they accept that authority. That is, they can't weasel out later by saying that whoever agreed with things didn't really have the others' support, or that we forced them into it, or anything like that.
Sendai didn't cause the damage; Kuvira and Ramiel did. This is about the civilian casualties, and property damage causing that.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, or how it relates to the referenced line. Also, the line itself is an attempt to give them a better grip on Sabrina and her personality and situation. Context and understanding, to help give a foundation that might eventually be trust.
Gadjo
Doka
Wasn't really that serious a suggestion dude. Calm yourself. Even in the hypothetical situation where we would do that, it would be something we did much, much later if Mami was healthy. I wouldn't support that change anyway, it was just something I was joking about.
[X] Kinematics
For now anyway.
For now anyway.
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@Gadjo: Eh, that explanation was for the benefit of o3o, not really anything new. You can see my previous post on this topic (which was finding Onmur's waff sweet yet incredibly horrifying).
e: Tbh, given the restates, I feel like this topic has come full circle and exhausted itself.
e: Tbh, given the restates, I feel like this topic has come full circle and exhausted itself.
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1. That's what the vote's trying to find out. What was their motivation for coming for the 20 seeds? Just the usual need for grief seeds or something urgent/problematic for us later?
2.What I'm saying is that we really don't need that much trust to make this offer. They know we can do it so we let them know that's an option. I really don't see the difference between what we're doing other than actually making said pitch instead of throwing it in as an afterthought (???).
3. The idea of Sendai wanting to punish them for answering their call doesn't quite add up, and regardless, I don't see us getting anything out of that. Better to just actually call Kuvira out directly rather than some passive aggressive mumbling.
4. Whoever replies is going to be the spokesperson, and I don't see "but she didn't have the authority" being relevant at all...or them answering "lol but we were forced to". If they're inclined to break the agreement anyway, I don't see demanding to speak to their leader right now changing that.
5.This was still them arriving on Sendai's orders and with no objections from them prior to them losing.
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
[x] Yes, I think someone has taken to calling me that recently.
-[x] Look pointedly at Sakura.
[x] Explain to Moe her position. Explain the "No Foolishness Tolerated" policy, but that you don't want to have to repeat yourself, so you're waking the others up as well.
[x] Wake up the other two and get them settled in. Determine who has primary authority among them.
[x] Chew them all out for the collateral damage.
[x] Note that you're not interfering with Sendai's payment, but that such payment is entirely Sendai's prerogative. Whether Sendai wants to charge a penalty for the damage Fukushima caused is their business.
[x] Explain that you're not here looking for a fight, but seem to keep finding it necessary before talking to people.
[x] We won't interfere if they want to pack up and go home, but we are trying to offer a deal to nearby magical girl groups that they may be interested in.
-[x] Their confiscated grief seeds will be returned before they leave.
[x] Let them discuss among themselves how they want to proceed.
-[x] Look pointedly at Sakura.
[x] Explain to Moe her position. Explain the "No Foolishness Tolerated" policy, but that you don't want to have to repeat yourself, so you're waking the others up as well.
[x] Wake up the other two and get them settled in. Determine who has primary authority among them.
[x] Chew them all out for the collateral damage.
[x] Note that you're not interfering with Sendai's payment, but that such payment is entirely Sendai's prerogative. Whether Sendai wants to charge a penalty for the damage Fukushima caused is their business.
[x] Explain that you're not here looking for a fight, but seem to keep finding it necessary before talking to people.
[x] We won't interfere if they want to pack up and go home, but we are trying to offer a deal to nearby magical girl groups that they may be interested in.
-[x] Their confiscated grief seeds will be returned before they leave.
[x] Let them discuss among themselves how they want to proceed.
Gadjo
Doka
I understand the reaction; it would be pretty manipulative to do that and we pretty much know Mami would allow it for fear of going against us. That's why it was just a joke. It would be an awful thing to do right now, and not a great idea in the future.
Yeah, it's more or less a joke based on shipping...and why I prefer "no name given".
To avoid confusion, give context to the setting, ensure nothing foolish is attempted, etc. Calm her down while explaining who we are. Amazingly enough, they don't have 24 hours of internal time to come to grips with what happened between one statement and the next.
She did?
<re-reads the update>
She says she knew it was a bad idea, not that it was stupid.
If you are referring to "no more fighting" in the general, broad, long-term sense, then no, that's not what I mean. If you mean in the immediate, current, while-we're-negotiating sense, I'm not sure why you suggest it would be difficult to enforce without incentive.
Given the spur-of-the-moment ambush that this all precipitated from, I would expect Sendai to say, "Very high threat target; take them out fast, and preferably from range." Then they say, "OK", and do what they do.
Either interpretation is just speculation though. We have no idea who gave which specific order to whom, when, nor under what circumstances or time or information limitations. We can only approach things from the perspective of the results, and who the direct cause was.
You have to be very careful about tying individuals in to incidental or contributory blame, as that can quickly get to the point of being an excuse to blame anyone for just about anything.
It's not about what they get, but the context under which they get it. It's an implicit suggestion that Sendai is free to ignore, but in ignoring also shows that they are explicitly doing so.
As I noted for Ugo, it's about setting up context and a situational perspective from which they can view us.
<nod> I'll see about working that in.
Sorry for replying several pages behind the thread, but keeping up with replying is a real
pain on my phone.
I should add that what you've said here is literally Tyrant Queen Sabrina. You can't possibly go 'hey these alliances and agreements suck' and then turn around and say 'but we're setting up a system of, uh, alliances and agreements that depend entirely on us' without some massive cognitive dissonance. And nevermind how our deals are going to affect the groups who don't agree, or change how existing favors are viewed. We need to understand and take the status quo into account.
Edit: my autocorrect changed 'alliances' to 'slaves'...
Because something takes time means it isn't worth doing? No wonder we've caused a bunch of long term problems with our short term solutions.
You know that Mami warned us not one update ago that we were trying to do too much too fast. And that was in a matter where we were expected to help find a solution.
And in interactions between human beings, goodwill has value no matter what.
As for your points, we could be doing a hell of a lot more to stop seed loss, but we aren't. If we equivocate seeds to souls to lives, we better get the fuck on tracking down every seed we can, even if we have to force agreements to cleanse. But we aren't doing that. We can call them on collateral damage no matter what approach we take, but it specifically damages cooperation with any offer we make in the moment. And there's no evidence that says their fee here was higher than normal, in fact, Akiko waived some of a healing fee, so I would expect a similar discount. Neither was Akiko desperate at the time the offer was made.
But ultimately, the point by point isn't nearly as important as that this is the wrong time to resolve an offer of a long term agreement. We have neither the goodwill necessary nor any of the intel we need to make a deal for repeat cleansing in good conscience. Nor are we giving them any real breathing room to recover from nearly dying or the general suddenness of their defeat.
That all said,
The last three points of @Kinematics 's vote are really good. Raise the subject without pushing it on them, and allow them breathing room and the option of tabling this for when they're more prepared. It's a huge difference in framing as a request and shoving it in their face, and solves exactly what I was taking about re: pushy phrasing yesterday
pain on my phone.
I should add that what you've said here is literally Tyrant Queen Sabrina. You can't possibly go 'hey these alliances and agreements suck' and then turn around and say 'but we're setting up a system of, uh, alliances and agreements that depend entirely on us' without some massive cognitive dissonance. And nevermind how our deals are going to affect the groups who don't agree, or change how existing favors are viewed. We need to understand and take the status quo into account.
Edit: my autocorrect changed 'alliances' to 'slaves'...
Because something takes time means it isn't worth doing? No wonder we've caused a bunch of long term problems with our short term solutions.
You know that Mami warned us not one update ago that we were trying to do too much too fast. And that was in a matter where we were expected to help find a solution.
And in interactions between human beings, goodwill has value no matter what.
As for your points, we could be doing a hell of a lot more to stop seed loss, but we aren't. If we equivocate seeds to souls to lives, we better get the fuck on tracking down every seed we can, even if we have to force agreements to cleanse. But we aren't doing that. We can call them on collateral damage no matter what approach we take, but it specifically damages cooperation with any offer we make in the moment. And there's no evidence that says their fee here was higher than normal, in fact, Akiko waived some of a healing fee, so I would expect a similar discount. Neither was Akiko desperate at the time the offer was made.
But ultimately, the point by point isn't nearly as important as that this is the wrong time to resolve an offer of a long term agreement. We have neither the goodwill necessary nor any of the intel we need to make a deal for repeat cleansing in good conscience. Nor are we giving them any real breathing room to recover from nearly dying or the general suddenness of their defeat.
That all said,
The last three points of @Kinematics 's vote are really good. Raise the subject without pushing it on them, and allow them breathing room and the option of tabling this for when they're more prepared. It's a huge difference in framing as a request and shoving it in their face, and solves exactly what I was taking about re: pushy phrasing yesterday
