Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Are the rumours of that land of plenty more extreme than the rumours about us?
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Are the Thunder Tribe and Stormbird Tribe jokes or the actual names of people? I'd be unsurprised if they were real.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think they are about equal or maybe a bit less. Just personal opinion.
They are certainly representative. I mean look at the Thunder Horse.
Seems totally plausible.
Isn't one of their God, Zeus?
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
From the Proto Indo-European Wikipedia page:
The supreme ruler of the Proto-Indo-European pantheon was the god *Dyḗus Pḥatḗr, whose name literally means "Sky Father." He is believed to have been worshipped as the god of the daylit skies. He is, by far, the most well-attested of all the Proto-Indo-European deities. The Greek god Zeus, the Roman god Jupiter, and the Illyrian god Dei-Pátrous all appear as the head gods of their respective pantheons. The Norse god Týr, however, seems to have been demoted to the role of a minor war-deity. *Dyḗus Pḥatḗr is also attested in the Rigveda as Dyáus Pitā, a minor ancestor figure mentioned in only a few hymns. The names of the Latvian god Dievs and the Hittite god Attas Isanus do not preserve the exact literal translation of the name *Dyḗus Pḥatḗr, but do preserve the general meaning of it.[6]
Edit: Aka, yes, no, maybe. They might not have a heavenly sky god but just a warrior who lost one arm to the wolf and fiercely pursues justice. Though that's more likely to be the mode of thought of the Thunder Horses, due to an increased need for Justice as a significant concept as they settle down.
Also, Stormbirds are NA not Hellenic or indo euro in origin.
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- Location
- his hidden lair
You seem to view this as an all or nothing last effort gambit pursuing a goddamn trap when there's so many reasons to think even if we fail the crisis we can ameliorate some of the blow.
We can end this at positive stability- we can address a lot of the issues our people have with government by establishing the very concept of consistent common law and government transparency. Rather than condemning us out of hand as fools playing chicken and underestimating the situation examine the situation and realize it's nowhere near as black or white as you insist even if we are wrong.
We can end- even kicking Law like there's no- tomorrow with potentially 3 stability. Alongside having our legitimacy alright. You keep insisting we should just stock up on Art and Mysticism without recognizing that The Law is likely as not the means of transmuting those resources into a solution to the issue at hand.
I refuse to accept this is simply a collection of trap options.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
I hope our society implodes so that I can: get a tiny coastal province; make a bunch of ships; sail off into the far seas; land; colonize the nearby nation of savages; create an empire with my nation's superior grasp of administration, metal, and agriculture; and then return to annihilate PoM's damned whiny republic of people who are staunchly conservative and never do things for the fun of it.
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Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
I've said it before. I'm perfectly fine with taking risky opportunities. I'm not perfectly fine with risks that are so extreme they could crack the civ in half, for opportunities that can't justifiably be called situation-limited. Law will still be there after the crisis, of this I'm nearly sure (or at least, Law can be started on the final turn of the crisis so that it doesn't get locked out), there's no guarantee we will be if law doesn't cover our bases well enough.
I hope we come out of this a little more cautious, like the other quest I participate in.
- Location
- Hell
Keep in mind that it is a gamble.
People think it will fill all requirements. You think it is the only way.
We have no way of knowing, but the majority thinks it is worth the risk and hasn't really accepted any substitutes so...
*shrug*
- Location
- his hidden lair
I'm not denying it's a risk, I'm not denying it's a gambit. But the idea that The Law- even if it's not the solution to all our problems won't be of some use is what I take issue with.
The naysayers are insisting we need art and mysticism to fix this- but aren't considering the possibility the megaproject is the way of leveraging those resources in the needed way.
- Location
- Panama City
So you don't think it will even mitigate the crisis?
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
You may not be pursuing a trap, but the total success of the crisis is based at least in part on pure dumb luck in mid turn events, and basically on the grace of the QM giving us an easily dealt with punishment event for only mostly completing the crisis, which (honestly) we may not even be able to afford, given most or all of our spendable statistics save military will be 0 or 1.
You're forgetting that AN allowed us to impose a system so complex and arcane to the time period that not only was it relegated to crit only to go over any better than the steaming pile it ended up as, but also that we now have to make a multi-millennia leap in abstract thought, literacy levels, and government, just to keep from being forced to downgrade it.
We can't end with 3 stability. End of this turn we'll have 1, end of next turn, assuming we kick law and gain 2 stability from another GS, we'll only have 2.
I'm saying we need stats to spend when the crisis is over, ostensibly to afford the 'hard choices' we've been told will happen if we can't pull it off.
I think that even if it mitigates the problem, that if we have to spend stats at all to afford the partial failure without schisming or internal conflict, we won't have any left.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
We can hope the dice give us something nice when it throws out of context problem at us again.
Maybe another sea faring civ will send trade mission to us.
@Academia Nut
Do we get notified when we get trade missions?
Maybe another sea faring civ will send trade mission to us.
@Academia Nut
Do we get notified when we get trade missions?
No, we can only get to 2 stability unless we get a Greater Good "tiny chance" trigger.
And it is quite plausible that going for The Law was meant to be a trap: it's a concept far ahead of its time (hence the megaproject) and completing it drains away pretty much all of our econ, art, mysticism, and spare actions. The megaproject natively consumes ~16 actions (8 real, 4 mysticism, 4 art), and we're burning an extra action to get it done in time (4 real, 2 stability, 3 econ, 4 mysticism, 4 art). Without the Baby Boom and our Province actions, we'd be in a lot of trouble. (4 real actions, 3 province actions, 3 Baby Boom action-equivalents) = 10 effective actions per turn, but we only control 4 of them.
I don't think that it's a trap since it seems to solve the problems listed, but the possibility remains. Without provinces or the Baby Boom we'd be completely screwed.
I'm going to be honest, I don't see much utility in this. There are simply too many possibilities and we can't really assign probabilities to them effectively.
That being said, if you enjoy doing them feel free to continue. It certainly doesn't hurt.
Current stat valuation: (secondary action equivalents to get +1 of that stat)
Diplo ~1 ([Main] Trade Mission = 3 action input average 3 diplo gain, but we don't know what's worth spending diplo on yet)
Econ 1 (Expand Economy)
Martial ~1.5 ([Main] Build Chariots = 4 actions in, 3 martial out for 1.3:1 but also have 2:1 with bonus effects)
Stability ~2
RoO = 1.77 (2 actions in, 1.13 out but restricted and random). 2 as a secondary and even more random.
Festival = 2 (1 action 1 econ in, 1 out but restricted.)
Sacrifice = 2.5 main, 3 secondary
Legitimacy ~3 (2 art+1 action in, 1 legitimacy out. Main: 6 action-equivalent in, but get ~2 from stability and unknown worth of presteige)
Centralization ~2 (Secondary New Trails)
Hierarchy ??? (no actions modify)
Art 1 (1 econ + [Secondary] Art Patronage)
Mysticism 1 (Study Stars, goes to ~2 if we need to Expand Holy SItes)
Prestiege ??? (chance from Main Proclaim Glory)
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- Location
- Panama City
Ok, I see what you are saying. I most vehemently disagree with you, but I see what you are saying. Of course, I'm of the opinion we'd be forced to downgrade to flat payments and quotas at the end of this, but I'm also of the opinion if we do nothing but stock up on stats to try to ride out the hit from not solving the crisis, without doing a sing;e thing to try to do so, we'd get hit far worse than what we would spending those stats trying to fix things, to the point we'd simply fracture point blank with no option to try to stall it.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Think of it this way. If Stability and Legitimacy are the only two conditions we can feasibly fill for the crisis (communication and literacy being relegated to critical bonus mid-turn events or lucky technological advances), all picking law does is present an outside-context half-solution that will, at best, mitigate one degree of failure.
Being cautious and stocking up on critical stats would easily hit the final crisis turn with 3 stability, 7 or more art, and 4 or more mysticism along with 2-3 econ (more if you sacrifice some of the art/mysticism off the top), meaning we'd have to take a failure by 2 conditions.
Taking the chance with law (and assuming it neither gives communication nor literacy), leaves us with 2 stability, 1 art, maybe 1 mysticism assuming it gets doubled by provinces the next two turns, and 0 to 1 econ (current turn ends with 1+1, can assume maybe 1 to 2 more from province actions, have to grand sac a second time for stability buffer; we still don't know if our 'March' takes our econ/gives any back), meaning we'd have to take a failure by 1 condition, and then have no resources to spend when the crisis comes to a head.
If that is a "hard" decision, then it isn't hard at all.
- Location
- his hidden lair
Fair enough on the stability- and yeah, Academia gave us the choice to make this mess- but it's not like there's even now no possible way for this to spur our civilization to advance.
That leap is a huge advantage and one we're poised to be able to pull off. Yes- the concept of codified common law is ahead of it's time, but we have all the tools theoretically there.
That's a bit more valid- but even then I'd rather risk trying to prevent that than desperately trying to stock up on a cure.
Do you really think part of the law isn't covering ensuring the people know it/can access it? A law noone is aware of isn't a law at all. That's why I feel The Law does address some of that literacy and communication issue. Communication not in the time it takes to reach them but in the clarity of the message.
Moreover, I'd much sooner assume the stats we pay for failing the crisis are going to be in terms of Centralization, Hierarchy, Stability, and Legitimacy rather than conventional resources. It makes sense such a failing would force the government to make concessions rather than involve the government reinvesting loose capital.
- Location
- Panama City
You forget that Law requires no econ, so we'd have much more than 1.
Look, putting our stats to use attempting to solve this problem is much better than throwing up our hands and saying "We can't solve it, batten down the hatches". If you would go back and read the turn, you'd see the Proclamations and the festival did help in lessening the confusion on taxes, so by that token distributing a formal code of laws that has everything written down should only help us.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
you know our baby boon is still going on, we also have the largest population at this time meaning that this whole crises is propyl going to explode because we have way more people yet haven't been getting the government to be big enough to govern effectively, this the whole rapidly expanding population and the massive increase in what we are asking our government to do is likely the reason why everything is going to blow up, if possibly would ending the baby boom increase the time we have for finishing the crises?
There's to way to control the baby boom even if you are right.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
true but the baby boom is increasing the number of people at a massive rate, more people means more people to tax, more people to teach how to write/read and more people that need to be inoculated.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Thanks! Yeah, I'm really doing this just for funsies. If any reader of it wants to figure out the likely-hoods in their own head then they should feel free to. If they do that then that's a bonus for me. I'll be rather cross however if someone uses it as a focal point to argue or support an argument. That's really not the point.