Considering warcarts use horses to drag them around, I believe war carts fall into the cavalry section.
:facepalm: So they don't have horseback riders and are still unable to use their carts in our territory.*sigh* so nothing changed. Ok false alarm no revolutionary war tech that would allow the DP to steam roll us.

The carts are too wide to go fast through our stone age(now copper age) trails. Once we get actual roads that might change but that won't happen for a while.
 
Depends on circumstances.
Well, that's just the tiniest little bit vague.

This can be interpreted in many ways, but one that seems reasonably likely is that our heroic diplomacy leader has a higher chance to get the opportunity to diplo-annex them via mid-turn action and that waiting means it's more likely to take a main turn's action. In this case we really, really want to connect with them this turn.
Another interpretation is that it depending on the amount of pressure the Nomads are putting on them, in that after we get the connection they'll join us once the Nomads start raiding them heavily enough (and thus we get a mid-turn action to do a sea raid like we did last time). In this case it doesn't really matter.

and were convinced those prehistoric vikings would come any decade now! Aaaannnyyyy decade now.
Turns out they were further off than we thought, so we decided to become the vikings instead (see: our Nomad attack when we got better boats)
And I just checked the voting for that because I was curious, almost no one voted for walls for the defense but instead as a smaller engineering project as practice before that canal we were totally going to do the very next turn (and then the forest blight happened)
 
Just wondering, have you ever heard/seen mediocre used before? It's like a C- grade. You'll take it, but you don't want it. Mediocre is significantly worse than average in terms of connotations.
And if you don't believe that (could potentially be regional differences in language I suppose) then think of it in game design terms: the scale goes Poor->Mediocre->Average->Exceptional->Heroic. It makes no sense to make the scale significantly imbalanced, which makes Mediocre as far away from Average as Exceptional is- significant, though not unbeatable. Luck on the roll remains the primary factor in determining the outcome, but why risk worse chances when a single turn is all you need to remove it?

I am thinking more like this. The difference between a poor mechanic and a mediocre one is greater than the one between a mediocre one and a avrage one. A poor mechanic might damage your car while the mediocre one will probably fix it, but take longer than an average one. What i am emphasizing on is that poor is significantly worse than mediocre, than mediocre is to avrage. In the end i think that poor has a greater chance of disastrous results while heroic has a greater chance of great results.
Mediocre does in no way mean bad, it means that the guy can do the job just don't expect a miracle. The reason i push for this is because we are in between two faction who are perfectly willing to attack us. Expanding our warriors while under attack means less training and preperation before our new warriors join the battle. Having it as a main will most likely still give us some additional effects even on a average roll. If we do it now we can do it again once we have a more than decent martial leader, but if we wait and are attacked, we might end up in a bad spot.
 
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That reminds me.

@Academia Nut
War chief: Have we tried to move things by putting filled bags on pony?
Farm chief: Does our current black soil production meets our farm expansions?
Spirit chief: Are we sacrificing animals for occasions other than Sacred Warding?
 
:facepalm: So they don't have horseback riders and are still unable to use their carts in our territory.*sigh* so nothing changed. Ok false alarm no revolutionary war tech that would allow the DP to steam roll us.

The carts are too wide to go fast through our stone age(now copper age) trails. Once we get actual roads that might change but that won't happen for a while.
Actually, their chariot design means they can navigate rough terrain better than our war carts. Not to mention they have lots of foot soldiers. I'm not sure why you think the small stretch of hills dividing the DP from our lower valley settlement is, in any way, a deterrent to the DP.
 
Actually, their chariot design means they can navigate rough terrain better than our war carts. Not to mention they have lots of foot soldiers. I'm not sure why you think the small stretch of hills dividing the DP from our lower valley settlement is, in any way, a deterrent to the DP.
Our terrain is a lot more than just some "small stretch of hills" like you say they are. Their actually a big ass area and it's own biome. Also have you actually ever lived or traveled in hill country? Not the rolling grass covered hill kind but actuall hill country? It's very rough terrain and virtually impossible to pass with non all-terrain off road cars not to mention some rickety ass carts. This is compounded by the forest in the hills which turns it from a large obstacle to a logistical nightmare.(nothing sounds quite as nice as our enemies running into a "Oh God that's a cliff interrupt".)
 
Our terrain is a lot more than just some "small stretch of hills" like you say they are. Their actually a big ass area and it's own biome. Also have you actually ever lived or traveled in hill country? Not the rolling grass covered hill kind but actuall hill country? It's very rough terrain and virtually impossible to pass with non all-terrain off road cars not to mention some rickety ass carts. This is compounded by the forest in the hills which turns it from a large obstacle to a logistical nightmare.(nothing sounds quite as nice as our enemies running into a "Oh God that's a cliff interrupt".)
I think you're misunderstanding how little land there is between us and the DP...they're practically at our borders. They don't have that many hills to cross before they get to our lower valley settlement. Once they take that settlement, they can take advantage of our roads.
 
I think you're misunderstanding how little land there is between us and the DP...they're practically at our borders. They don't have that many hills to cross before they get to our lower valley settlement. Once they take that settlement, they can take advantage of our roads.
... you do realise the hills aren't to scale right? And that they are really really big right? If I remember correctly it takes about a day or more to go from the fishing village to the valley home.

...*sigh*

Ok let me explain it like this warcarts don't work in our land. DP need their warcarts to actually raid and carry back stuff with out getting slowed down. That limits the amount of loot they can gather and the amount of distance they can travel with that loot. The slower they go the longer they have to raid in order to recoup their losses. the longer they raid the more time our forces have to kill them. Hell with our defensive bonuses and our militia training I wouldn't be surprised if our people could make a pasttime of luring wood be invaders into vallies and pelting them to death with stones as a game.
 
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... you do realise the hills aren't to scale right? And that they are really really big right? If I remember correctly it takes about a day or more to go from the fishing village to the valley home.

...*sigh*

Ok let me explain it like this warcarts don't work in our land. DP need their warcarts to actually raid and carry back stuff with out getting slowed down. That limits the amount of loot they can gather and the amount of distance they can travel with that loot. The slower they go the longer they have to raid in order to recoup their losses. the longer they raid the more time our forces have to kill them. Hell with our defensive bonuses and our militia trading I wouldn't be surprised if our people could make a pasttime of luring wood be invaders into vallies and pelting them to death with stones as a game.
Gonna need a quote on the size of hills and the travel times.

The DP don't really raid purely for loot, they focus on slaves. If you factor in their foot soldiers, they can take as many people as they want.

Also, the DP's econ model revolves around constant warfare. They'll gain alot from raids, while we'll grow weaker since we have to replenish losses as well as econ (assuming their raids damage our econ). While our defensive bonuses are really great for defensive wars, walling our lower valley will play to our strengths and wouldn't leave anything to chance.
 
Flip.
[X][Main] New Trails
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horse
[X][Secondary] Build War Carts
Of course, the downside to this vote is that AN has confirmed it'll take another action to flip the villages to us, though if we get lucky it'll be a mid-turn event rather than take up our action space. That means copper might get delayed another turn.
 
That reminds me.

@Academia Nut
War chief: Have we tried to move things by putting filled bags on pony?
Farm chief: Does our current black soil production meets our farm expansions?
Spirit chief: Are we sacrificing animals for occasions other than Sacred Warding?
Two of those are already answered though.
We use carts and wagons most of the time to carry stuff, since you can move FAR more than with just animals. However, on rough terrain, sometimes we'd have to do without carts and go to the old way of a bag on an ox or on the REALLY rough terrain, peopleback is the only option.

This was mentioned during the fight against the Blight.

Black Soil production meets our expansion rate(Black Soil production grows with our population after all, it's literally our primary waste disposal method), though we could use more, we don't need more exactly unless we want to try to colonize some inhospitable soils.

Pushing it past the limits might produce weird effects however, if we increase Black Soil production past our natural waste production, then we're going to have to find another way to collect waste efficiently.
Actually, their chariot design means they can navigate rough terrain better than our war carts. Not to mention they have lots of foot soldiers. I'm not sure why you think the small stretch of hills dividing the DP from our lower valley settlement is, in any way, a deterrent to the DP.
They'd still be pretty limited, I think, not something you can use at full speed.

However, why are people arguing on the basis of DP chariots? Their primary armed force is massed medium/heavy infantry, they use the chariots as auxillaries and skirmishers, not primary assault.
 
Of course, the downside to this vote is that AN has confirmed it'll take another action to flip the villages to us, though if we get lucky it'll be a mid-turn event rather than take up our action space. That means copper might get delayed another turn.
Provinces give action economy, so getting some more will mean we do not need as much, say, expand economy of our own. 4-5 provinces will do wonders as long as we maintain army, centralization, stability and values.
 
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[X][Main] New Trails
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horse
[X][Secondary] Expand Warriors

If they're going to invade/raid us, it will not be with their war carts, but with massed infantry.
 
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Black Soil production meets our expansion rate(Black Soil production grows with our population after all, it's literally our primary waste disposal method), though we could use more, we don't need more exactly unless we want to try to colonize some inhospitable soils.
Which we will need if we expand to the eastern hills. The soil there is crap, and we will need to build up some sort of forest there as well.
 
Gonna need a quote on the size of hills and the travel times.

The DP don't really raid purely for loot, they focus on slaves. If you factor in their foot soldiers, they can take as many people as they want.

Also, the DP's econ model revolves around constant warfare. They'll gain alot from raids, while we'll grow weaker since we have to replenish losses as well as econ (assuming their raids damage our econ). While our defensive bonuses are really great for defensive wars, walling our lower valley will play to our strengths and wouldn't leave anything to chance.
:facepalm: @Academia Nut can you help me out. How big is our hill country exactly? Okay that aside we're already planning on making more walls in the future.
 
Okay that aside we're already planning on making more walls in the future.
Well, it's on the list, but it's also priority four or five on "crap that we REALLY need to get done!" Been there for awhile now, too.

A big part of the problem is a lack of PRESSING need. Of the walls we've built, one was for practical work experience (honestly forgot that) and the others were because of the traditional "freaking nomads".

And, while we definitely have a greater need for them now on our forward-most settlement than ever before, the reasoning your actually promoting (that we have a lot of rough terrain between our 'border' and our closest settlement) means that amassing more and better forces is the more economical option, since it both bolsters are defenses, helps a RELATIVELY behind tech group catch up to our neighbors, and opens up the possibility of expansion into more dangerous and vulnerable territories.

Walls only bolsters a single settlement's defenses, and if our build-up goes well, they shouldn't be tested in the first place.

2962 There's also the minor issue that every wall built makes the corresponding provinces harder to get back in line, but I don't really care about that.
 
The Dp just reached our borders last turn and historically raid their neighbors. Our hiding might be seen as weakness and a excellent target for slave acquisition. Humans are not always rational
Far, far more concerning than that though was that between the Highland Kingdom and the Dead Priests, the remnants of the Western Confederacy had all fallen in with one of the two of them, with the Dead Priests taking the lion's share of the settlements. Aside from their old tricks of offering 'follow us and we'll make the pain stop', other things were starting to flow out of their damnable city, things that people liked. In particular, they had started to make a new sort of pottery that was both attractive and kept out water better, and their increasingly controlled and directed violence meant that it was possible to trade with them, especially if you accepted their terms and provided them with a stream of sacrifices. They'd even started suggesting that on average a village of reasonable size would execute or exile more people in a year than they demanded, which was vastly less than the casualties that would be suffered from fighting with them, so by agreeing to terms they actually saved lives.

The Highlanders countered by pointing out that they weren't going to fall apart like the Western Confederacy and lived in the hills where they would be nearly impossible to dislodge and anyone who sided with the Dead Priests was going to get stabbed, clubbed, or shot full of arrows. Somewhat reasonably the remaining villages had fallen in line behind one of the two aggressors, with the dividing line being the western lowland river. To some extent the Highland Kingdom and the Dead Priests both now had their territory come up to the territory of the People, although the closest line went through the badlands and the villages that were at the end of the managed sections of trail were basically trying to keep their heads down. Still, Twythulmyn knew that trade along those routes was going to get even harder as the villagers were now under tributary pressures from one group or another, and a group of convenient outsiders with lots of high value goods would make the perfect target.

The quote seems to imply three things to me: 1) The DP are shifting from slave raids to acquiring the labor through diplomancy/tribute, 2) Neither the HK nor the DP *proper* are at our borders, they simply have tributary states who are near them but still past the badlands, 3) We thus are unlikely to be attacked by the small raiding parties that slave-takers usually consist of, especially since they'll need to travel for what has historically been called a month.

Anyways, New Trails is the most reasonable option.
 
An emissary arrives with news of DOOM
[X] [Main] Expand Warriors
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horse
[X] [Secondary] Expand Economy

Twythulmyn had had many things planned. He had been ordering the expansion of the warriors and militia, left ill at ease by the territorial expansions of southern neighbours, he had sent out a mission to the Thunder Horse to see how they were doing and if they needed support, while also trying to make sure that connections of trade and friendship were further developed. He had been frustrated by the news that a group of boats had gone scouting to the south of Redcoast and disappeared, even as the pastures in the northern hills were expanded.

He had been listening to the happenings in the south with some interest and anxiety, as the Highlanders and Dead Priests seemed to settle into a period of quiet consolidation, letting their subject villages squabble on their behalf while they turned inward. He had especially wondered what the Dead Priests might be up to, with word of increased trade flowing out of their city, and of changes as to how they were dealing with their slaves, but as it was all coming third or fourth hand it was hard to be sure what might be happening. Traders had also brought news of the chief who had caused all the trouble among the Metal Workers also somehow succeeding in his ambitions and unifying his people and Twythulmyn had wondered at sending another expedition their way to congratulate the man, solidify ties, and possibly also learn more about the stones that were mysteriously made into metal.

He had so many plans, and then a stranger appeared in the sky. He had been a boy when the comet had appeared in the sky and Bynwyn had calmed the populace, had told them not to be afraid, and had more or less countered the magic of the Spirit Talkers. The thing was though that you kind of had to look for that comet, which while unsettling when you found something strange in the sky it wasn't immediate and obvious that it was there.

Not this monster. Brighter than the Morning Star and with tails that trailed across the sky, it had slowly drifted across the sky for two seasons now and seemed to be getting brighter and brighter with each passing night. Utter terror gripped the People, and while there were many shamans these days, there were fewer who studied the celestial spirits than ever and they had no answers as to what to do to appease this monster in the sky. Unseasonal storms of shooting stars blazed across the sky, as if the stars themselves were at war and were firing their bows of fire and thunder for or against this intruder. And then, as above so below, during the summer months there was a mass outbreak of the scourging disease among the lowlands, cutting down thousands and turning the entire region into a frothing frenzy as villages turned upon each other, both out of fear that they might be harbouring the 'Star Pox' and in an attempt to satiate the panicked desire for blood of the Dead Priests.

Trade to the south ground to a halt and the northern plains were equally thrown into madness from the fear gripping the nomads there. Only the sea routes to the west and the land routes to the east remained relatively clear, and many sailors and traders refused to head out under the baleful influence of the serpent in the sky.

As for the cause? Who knew! It could simply be the spirits had decided that humanity was corrupt and had sent an agent to destroy them all, it could be something that did not involve humans at all and was a purely spiritual matter, the People and everyone else caught up in the squabbles of the divine.

Of those theories that were being floated that the People were able to do anything about, the dominant ones were that the People had somehow angered the spirits with their warding magic against the scourging plague, and that the Thunder Horse had somehow intruded upon matters they did not understand with their star axe and settling in the valley where the Spirit Talkers once lived. Of the first, while there were some who called that the warding magic itself had angered the spirits and they were sending an emissary to correct the imbalance, many others felt that the issue was simply that they had horded magic that could save lives and thus they were being informed that if they had such miracles they had to share the magic with others. For the second, there was less that could be done there, although the trade mission to the Thunder Horse were being sent runners to try to get more information out of them, and Twythulmyn was tempted to join them in an attempt to get more information and potentially get the Thunder Horse to act on whatever might be going on.

Although, grimacing, there was also an idea he had and had quietly run past the Chief Shaman to see if it was viable - it technically was, but he hadn't voiced it to anyone else yet - and that was to attempt to leverage his charm and diplomacy directly. He had never considered himself particularly selfless - he had technically got the position of king by being the opposite -, but for his family, for his People... if the shamans and other chiefs thought it might work, he would offer up his life. The only method the Chief Shaman thought might work though was immolation and incineration, so that when his spirit detached from his body it would be carried quickly up to the sky where he might entreat with the comet and other celestial spirits and beg that they be merciful to the people. Beyond that, the People were going to be making a mass sacrifice to their ancestral spirits in an attempt to gain their protection.

And then of course there was the question of all the people seeking refuge from the lowlands...

Size of Sacrifice to Spirits (Task [Sacrifice])
[] Small (-1 Econ, chance of stability loss, ???)
[] Medium (-2 Econ, ???)
[] Large (-3 Econ, +1 Stability, ???)
[] Everything! (-4 Econ, +1 immediate stability, chance of extra stability, ???)

Emergency Restore Harmony? (Task [Harmony])
[] No, they could cause further panic
[] Yes, the people need to be further calmed (-1 to +2 Stability)

Share the scourge warding magic? (Task [Ward])
[] No, it is sacred magic (Small chance of stability loss)
[] It should be shared with friendly tribes (Shares with a few groups)
[] Even less friendly groups should know of the magic (Shares with many groups, chance of stability gain, ???)
[] Everyone, even the Dead Priests! (Shares far and wide for -1 Diplomacy, +1 Stability, ???)

Where should Twythulmyn go? (Task [King])
[] Remain home (Chance of stability gain)
[] Talk with the Thunder Horse (Applies Heroic diplomacy to interactions over the crisis)
[] Speak with spirits (Twythulmyn dies, +1 immediate stability, +1 Legitimacy, ???)

With disease and comets, everyone has lost their mind and thousands are running scared (Task [Refugee])
[] Close the borders (-1 Stability, chance of further stability loss)
[] Only let in some (Significant chance of stability loss)
[] Those with preexisting ties can come in (-1 Stability, +2 Econ, small chance of further stability loss)
[] Some from friendly groups can come in (-2 Stability, +4-5 Econ)
[] Many may enter (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, ???)
[] The People must offer aid (-4 Stability, +8-11 Econ, probable overcrowding issues, ???)
[] All who need aid must receive it (-5 Stability, +11-15 Econ, overcrowding issues, ???)

AN: To answer a few questions, immediate stability gain means that there is no issue with the timing of the event for relating with stability loss or the like. And yes, if Twythulmyn sacrifices himself, Legitimacy would go to 4. There would be no way to raise it back to 4 once it fell, but until you face an issue of legitimacy that lowered it, it would remain at 4. Finally, I stopped the LoO triggers at 5 since you would break if you picked more than that you would break even with maxing out immediate stability gain, and 5 is massively gambling on good rolls anyway so I doubt it would be popular, but there were a potential 8 LoO triggers this turn.

Also, as a general request, please keep the salt down over people pointing fingers over whether stability improvements should have been done or not
 
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