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Paths of Civilization

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minerva-n-memes said:
I don't really see the point in restricting sex work in this under the argument that it's "non-productive".

There's an opportunity here that, if we expand it and encourage the sex workers to travel outside our lands, mingle with nearby peoples and their power brokers, and come back, we can one-up a lot of the potential enemies around us.

In a word: Espionage

Clients of sex workers and courtesians typically have loose lips, they grow to trust and more and more, and ultimately, will spill significant amounts of info and secrets about their day-to-day lives.

Secrets have power that could we could use against current threats and future enemies and we could make like Littlefinger (who mind you, was such a threat because he found an information gold mine in the whorehouses that was a brilliant weapon against his enemies).

Hell, with enough training, they could be assassins too.

The Spirit Talkers may have an advantage right now, but their power is in their knowledge around the spirits. Knowledge is something that needs to be passed down, from generation to generation. If the teaching apparatus is broken by a sudden outbreak of stabbings from unknown assailants and the next generation doesn't have the required knowledge to wreak spirit havoc, we would avoid the spirit talkers potentially vassalizing our coalition.
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Non-productivity is one element that is merely temporary. With the development of more advanced economic practices they keep money flowing up and downstream like any good entertainment source, but when we're still bartering food and clothes for services, they're a bit more of a leech than an aid.

There's another issue I could bring up, in that regulation represents a shift towards independent business. Up until now, basically everybody who works in the tribe works under the subsidy of the governing body. They perform work, provide the polity with goods, and are paid by the chiefs for their services with a portion of those goods. Restriction means that the chiefs can control how many of these entertainers can work at a given time, and may even provide them rations as other important duties receive for the tribe, like warriors or craftsmen.

Regulation, on the other hand, merely means that there is oversight, regular assurance that they are healthy, providing fair games or services, etc. These entertainers would ultimately have total control of how much they charge for their service, and would no longer be beholden to the tribe for their survival. Basically, it supports a certain independence that we've yet made sure to quash when we've seen it.
 
Another cool type of magic, that might help us cover our martial weakness, would be a sort of compliment to what the spirit talkers are doing (possibly, if magic is real, and they're actually causing the wonky weather rather than just riding on the coat-tails of vengeful spirits). Something that, instead of turning the weather into a weapon, turns the land into a shield. The rivers drown enemies that try to cross them, wild animals harry and kill invaders in the forest, that sort of thing.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
have you tried to build a dam when flash floods are happenstance?
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Any dam produced at this level of technology will be made almost exclusively of raised earthworks, which, when properly packed with gravel and clay, can be quite resistant to flooding when built up properly (we'd be piling up one section of earthwork at a time, to the point that the raised areas are high enough that most flooding wouldn't knock down existing segments of the structure).
 
I've been convinced to support restrict over regulate on the grounds that our prefect socialist economy demands more government control.
 
I'm too busy editing to actually manage my vote, so just in case there's a surprise update I'll trust it w/ Sivantic.
[X] Sivantic
 
Changing my vote one last time.

[X] Regulate
[X] No
[X] {Main} Establish Annual Festival
[X] {Secondary} Organize Settlement
[X] Valley
[X] Coast

Our food production is very high already, walls aren't a priority with the lowlanders dealt with temporarily, making our own religion might draw the ire of the Spirit Talkers, and we're too disorganized to efficiently build a Great Dam or Great Canal.

The festival will take away a lot of the stress while not directly pissing off the Spirit Talkers, while we also do a bunch of upheaval organizing the fields and buildings.

Also...discussing whether to regulate, restrict, or ban isn't important and takes away from meaningful discussion on the major projects. The majority is very clearly on regulating it.
 
Powerofmind said:
Any dam produced at this level of technology will be made almost exclusively of raised earthworks, which, when properly packed with gravel and clay, can be quite resistant to flooding when built up properly (we'd be piling up one section of earthwork at a time, to the point that the raised areas are high enough that most flooding wouldn't knock down existing segments of the structure).
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blocking a river however is not the same as building of levees to prevent flooding.
 
Powerofmind said:
Non-productivity is one element that is merely temporary. With the development of more advanced economic practices they keep money flowing up and downstream like any good entertainment source, but when we're still bartering food and clothes for services, they're a bit more of a leech than an aid.

There's another issue I could bring up, in that regulation represents a shift towards independent business. Up until now, basically everybody who works in the tribe works under the subsidy of the governing body. They perform work, provide the polity with goods, and are paid by the chiefs for their services with a portion of those goods. Restriction means that the chiefs can control how many of these entertainers can work at a given time, and may even provide them rations as other important duties receive for the tribe, like warriors or craftsmen.

Regulation, on the other hand, merely means that there is oversight, regular assurance that they are healthy, providing fair games or services, etc. These entertainers would ultimately have total control of how much they charge for their service, and would no longer be beholden to the tribe for their survival. Basically, it supports a certain independence that we've yet made sure to quash when we've seen it.
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Ehhh, they need to eat like anybody else ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If we get them integrated with the traders, the current expanding nuclei of sex workers would be perfect to spread out and spy on potential enemies and the cherry on top is that we wouldn't be the ones who would have to pay them because it would be whoever they met paying for their services.

I want the delicious secrets of the peoples around us and the emerging sex worker economy opens the way to that.

The value is not their skills of entertainment, but ultimately, how we can use them to spy.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
blocking a river however is not the same as building of levees to prevent flooding.
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Heavier rocks and driving stakes into the edge of the riverbed can easily pick up a lot of detritus, and if work is done during the dry seasons (doesn't even have to be a drought) the river will generally be gentle enough that something can be raised in the path of a body of water.
 
Changing my Prostitution and Gambling vote
[X] Restrict such activities
[x] No
[x] {primary} Build Wall
-Valley
[x] {secondary} Organise Settlement
[x] {secondary} Expand Farms
 
With regards to the Great Projects, firmly a no from me. We neither have the population density or volume of trade where that is an efficient use of resources, nor do we have the tools necessary to make it easy. This is particularly the case with the canal given how resource intensive digging up so much and over such a distance (one month by foot), although this is less the case with the dam with the increased risk of it breaking being catastrophic.

If you want faster travel and increased ties, it would be far better and efficient to just develop a road network and innovate Chinese wheelbarrows given they're more efficient than horse pulled carts given one of homo sapiens traits are our endurance, while being much less of a hassle due to not needing to handle the animal.
 
Ok i still havent gone through all the pages yet (you people are fast...) but after seeing a certain post i have decided to lock in my vote. The spirit talkers hopefully wont be a problem. Id like to talk with them, but as a sovereign state not a vassal. Hopefully once people start feeling more in line with us and each other they wont be as afraid of them.

[X] Regulate such activities

[X] No

[X] {Main} Establish Annual Festival
[X] {Secondary} Organize Settlement
-[X] Valley
-[X] Coast

Next turn (if we have no actions available for the spirit talkers) we can raise our martial as main choice and take a choice for each settlement for the secondary choices
 
VoidZero said:
Yes, because i can't find any dam or canel votes. :cry:

Also, my interpenetration of regulating is that GOV assigns license and ensure the law are followed and tax paid.
Restrictive as being GOV owned.
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I will build a dam vote for you~

[X] Restrict such activities
[X] No

[X] {Main} Great Dam
[X] {Secondary} Step-Farms
[X] {Secondary} Establish Annual Festivals
 
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