Paths of Civilization

ctulhuslp · Dec 8, 2017

2xMachina said:
We should fix Yeoman action to Repeat Expand Forests.

It nets 2LTE, 2 Forests, 2 Innovation for like 1 Tech.

Yeomen have only 1 action (sadly) and it should remain flexible so that they can shore up Econ if we are on brink of starvation or whatnot.

If we somehow discover a building which will give them faction actions, I am all for repeating one of their actions as Forests.

PrimalShadow said:
2 Forests a turn is plenty to keep up with Baths and Ironworks. It is stuff like Ceramic Kilns that is the actual killer, and as a luxury I expect/hope factions to be less gung-ho about it.

*looks at Ceramics x2 Guilds tried to push*
I am not optimistic.
Thing is, both glass and ceramics are useful (alchemy, medicine) and expensive luxury good well-suited for the long-distance trade. So I am reasonably sure those will be taken semi-periodically. Not as often as Baths, but still.

Besides.

Academia Nut said:
A few did acknowledge that with some plans to make more warships would require more wood eventually, as wood the need for charcoal.

I am reasonably sure this indicates next iterations of Warships will require Forests too in some quantity. We are unlikely to build any more ships in near future, but traders might think otherwise for whatever reasons.

More generally, forests margin is one of those things on which we are better off safe than sorry, because Ymaryn severely lack knowledge to convince non-Priests ~~climate change~~ overforesting is real. Erring on side of caution here of all things is reasonable, because we have more or less no way to fix they Ymaryn dedication to it in case of breach.

I mean, there will be some way to back Priests in potential debate, but it'd conflict with PK (questioning), so it will be conflict of PSN vs PK, and this is the Pandora's box we should never touch; some inefficiency is worth the trouble.

ExNihilo · Dec 8, 2017

I'm sort of surprised there's no action that takes forests for one turn, all require a perminant forest.

ctulhuslp · Dec 8, 2017

ExNihilo said:
I'm sort of surprised there's no action that takes forests for one turn, all require a perminant forest.

That's because all actions represent a permanent expansion of X. Ironworks permanently consume forest, as do all other using-it-as-fuel. Warships will be using the forest on maintaining the navy and replacing the old ships in the background and so on.

We do not really have things which are one-time; everything represents permanent expansion and the stats costs are the permanent upkeep costs of that thing.

PrimalShadow · Dec 8, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
*looks at Ceramics x2 Guilds tried to push*

Yes, that was surprising. Though honestly, I think they might be trying to help our Culture Hero get tech innovations.

ctulhuslp said:
More generally, forests margin is one of those things on which we are better off safe than sorry, because Ymaryn severely lack knowledge to convince non-Priests ~~climate change~~ overforesting is real. Erring on side of caution here of all things is reasonable, because we have more or less no way to fix they Ymaryn dedication to it in case of breach.

The problem is that the more we err on the side of caution, the more aggressive our factions are going to be w.r.t. the forest buffer.

Still, like I said, I would be fine locking a Priest action on repeat. 4 Forests / turn should be enough for even you, I hope? (Well, 5, at least until we manage to turn off that damned forest passive policy).

PrimalShadow · Dec 8, 2017

Rakuhn said:
This was our collossal wall progress at the bottom of the "Not Diogenes" update: Redhills (6/9), Valleyguard (4/9)
This is the colossal wall progress we will have a the start of the next update: Redhills Colossal Walls (6/9), Valleyguard Colossal Walls (4/9)

Are our free cities not building the walls anymore?

AN just made a mistake. It will probably be correct by the time the actual update comes out, judging by history.

bluefur87 · Dec 8, 2017

I wonder what we need to unlock study weather...

ctulhuslp · Dec 8, 2017

PrimalShadow said:
Yes, that was surprising. Though honestly, I think they might be trying to help our Culture Hero get tech innovations.

I am 50% sure they are trying to reach Dominance and another 30% that pottery has synergy with Study Health or something else.
Plus pottery itself is just useful.

PrimalShadow said:
The problem is that the more we err on the side of caution, the more aggressive our factions are going to be w.r.t. the forest buffer.

Still, like I said, I would be fine locking a Priest action on repeat. 4 Forests / turn should be enough for even you, I hope? (Well, 5, at least until we manage to turn off that damned forest passive policy).

Yeah, it's Red Queen Race: we cannot really get too far ahead of consumption, but we cannot slow down either.
4 would be...after we have more or less finished low-hanging Ironworks and Baths, enough I guess. Depends on how factions behave wrt forests.

Rakuhn · Dec 8, 2017

I wonder if any of the other polities have started using coal yet.

Glassware · Dec 8, 2017

bluefur87 said:
I wonder what we need to unlock study weather...

I'm pretty sure it's folded under Study Stars somehow. We've seen that successfully predict weather patterns several times.

bluefur87 · Dec 8, 2017

Glassware said:
I'm pretty sure it's folded under Study Stars somehow. We've seen that successfully predict weather patterns several times.

No, that was something players thought was true, but ended up not being true.

I do think it will involve study stars, but it is probably locked behind exact measuring tools and clear glass.

PrimalShadow · Dec 8, 2017

I'm wondering what our Midturn Parliament options are going to be. I'm thinking maybe something like:

[] Integrate Txolla - Take advantage of the Lowlands bonus, and get more resources to fill up our Econ and LTE.
[] Start GP - We need this so, so much.
[] Start Canal - Self-explanatory, albeit expensive.
~~[] Redshore Block Housing~~ - Can't do it; no tech.
[] Blackmouth Academy + Blackmouth Library - Hurts our by Mysticism Refund by 1/2, but helps with soon-to-be-red-RA, and should reduce the culture cost of DGE as well.
[] Distribute Land - Patricians still want more of this.
[] Build Theatre - For our Genius.
[] Art Patronage - Also for our Genius.

PrimalShadow · Dec 8, 2017

By the way. Tentative stats for next update, if anyone is curious:

Diplo 27
-Intrigue 4
Econ 14 (+0+7)
-EE 18
-Forests 37{44}/42.5
Martial 5
-Naval 4
Wealth 25
Culture 27
Mysticism 17(+6)
Tech 1(+11)

Prestige 125
Centralization 4
Stability 4
Legitimacy 4

ExNihilo · Dec 8, 2017

PrimalShadow said:
I'm wondering what our Midturn Parliament options are going to be. I'm thinking maybe something like:

[] Integrate Txolla - Take advantage of the Lowlands bonus, and get more resources to fill up our Econ and LTE.
[] Start GP - We need this so, so much.
[] Start Canal - Self-explanatory, albeit expensive.
~~[] Redshore Block Housing~~ - Can't do it; no tech.
[] Blackmouth Academy + Blackmouth Library - Hurts our by Mysticism Refund by 1/2, but helps with soon-to-be-red-RA, and should reduce the culture cost of DGE as well.
[] Distribute Land - Patricians still want more of this.
[] Build Theatre - For our Genius.
[] Art Patronage - Also for our Genius.

Support Artisans, to gain tech?

Legion0047 · Dec 8, 2017

Where are all our tags?

ctulhuslp · Dec 8, 2017

PrimalShadow said:
[] Build Theatre - For our Genius.
[] Art Patronage - Also for our Genius.

Can I just mention how annoying the need to pamper him is?

I mean, I understand that it is still a boon - not doing these with Heroic Culture would just be silly, but still.

PrimalShadow said:
Tech 1(+11)

Ugh.

Legion0047 · Dec 8, 2017

So we hit Golden age?
sweet

PrimalShadow · Dec 8, 2017

Legion0047 said:
So we hit Golden age?
sweet

If we last till next turn without going down to under 3 stability.

ctulhuslp said:
Ugh.

Yeppp. Like I said, we are going to be having tech problems.

Ironically, the nature of refunds actually mitigates the problem, because it means factions can't spend all of our tech in one turn; they have to whittle it down over multiple turns.

Broccoliccoli · Dec 8, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
That's because all actions represent a permanent expansion of X. Ironworks permanently consume forest, as do all other using-it-as-fuel. Warships will be using the forest on maintaining the navy and replacing the old ships in the background and so on.

We do not really have things which are one-time; everything represents permanent expansion and the stats costs are the permanent upkeep costs of that thing.

War, diplomacy, exploration, suppression/support and research actions are all one-time, I think.

Rakuhn · Dec 8, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Can I just mention how annoying the need to pamper him is?

I mean, I understand that it is still a boon - not doing these with Heroic Culture would just be silly, but still.

Yes, it would be silly to not focus on culture actions while we had a culture hero. I'm also pretty sure that is exactly what the thread would do if we had the option.

Legion0047 · Dec 8, 2017

CeBrudras said:
War, diplomacy, exploration, suppression/support and research actions are all one-time, I think.

yup.
these consume stats without converting them in other stats.

PrimalShadow · Dec 8, 2017

By the way, I'd like to note that we almost have our overflow highway back up. I would recommend saving our 1 point of tech for Textiles PSN; that would burn some EE (we don't care) and some Econ (which we DO care about, but sacrifices must be made), but it generates a net 11 stats, which is going to fill up our Mysticism nicely and then have the Myst refund overflow to Tech next turn.

DakkaMania · Dec 8, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Nobody outside priests knows a single thing about ecology even being a thing, so priest authority is about the only thing protecting forests. And when the profits and priesthood conflict...well, AN answered above what happens: priesthood loses.

I think that was before we got a few upgrades to our education as a whole. So the Academies may teach a bit about it. And with more temples (and RA) the priests authority in this regard is higher.

So with some luck, the 70% lowers and shifts to the other two, hopefully the latter.

veekie · Dec 8, 2017

PrimalShadow said:
You forgot the (+1)T and (+3)M refund from Repair.
You also got 2 less overflow then I did for some reason. I overflowed 8 from Wealth and 4 from Diplo, leaving us with Myst 17 at the end, not 15.

Finally, You should have -5Econ, +1EE because the front-page income is wrong, and that leaves everything aligned with my result. Except EE; you would end with 15 and I ended with 18, so there is 3 missing there; did you count the expense from forestry passives?

-Blargh. I had limited time since work was killing me but that's some mistakes.
-Front page fooled me alright
-I assumed the passive costs were included on the front page.

ctulhuslp said:
That is true; somebody at Discord pointed out that forests can be considered the soft cap of our industrialization - factions only might go over limit but they definitely will go up to it. The problem is, there is no guarantee that factions will leave forests alone/grow them on their own if we don't grow them. So expanding forests at pace slower than "how much can we reasonably burn on average turn" is not an option either, because factions are fundamentally unreliable.

Fundamentally, we see the amount of forests the priests calculate from the land use data how much is safe use.

What the Guild see is probably something like 37{44}/85(Priests will make noise if you reach half), which would be the actual amount of wood out there if harvested more aggressively.

ctulhuslp said:
I am reasonably sure this indicates next iterations of Warships will require Forests too in some quantity. We are unlikely to build any more ships in near future, but traders might think otherwise for whatever reasons.

Might be that past a certain threshold points of Naval will require committed forestry to maintain?
That sounds like we need bigger harbors first.

Rakuhn said:
I wonder if any of the other polities have started using coal yet.

The Metal Worker mountains had a seam but it caught fire and then we routed a small river into it. Its probably not minable.

As for coal USE...there are safer ways to use coal, but putting it through the cooking to turn it into coke(because coal is a lower grade fuel than charccoal) would leave it as...well, its not carbon neutral, but at least the fumes won't be so bad if you perform the same reprocessing of the smoke as we do for our charcoal because we use the volatiles to make pitch.

Coal tar has plenty of applications.

agumentic · Dec 8, 2017

PrimalShadow said:
(+11)

GP, GP, my kingdom for GP!

ctulhuslp · Dec 8, 2017

PrimalShadow said:
Yeppp. Like I said, we are going to be having tech problems.

Ironically, the nature of refunds actually mitigates the problem, because it means factions can't spend all of our tech in one turn; they have to whittle it down over multiple turns.

True.

CeBrudras said:
War, diplomacy, exploration, suppression/support and research actions are all one-time, I think.

True too.

Rakuhn said:
Yes, it would be silly to not focus on culture actions while we had a culture hero. I'm also pretty sure that is exactly what the thread would do if we had the option.

*flashbacks to Yshuyn The Genius Admin Abysmal Martial ruling over the least thought through war in Ymaryn history*
No argument here.

DakkaMania said:
I think that was before we got a few upgrades to our education as a whole. So the Academies may teach a bit about it. And with more temples (and RA) the priests authority in this regard is higher.

So with some luck, the 70% lowers and shifts to the other two, hopefully the latter.

Probably yes; now at least King candidates have an idea of why trees matter.
To make sure at least, like, all nobility knows it we'd need more academies and temples.

Paths of Civilization

SPACE!

SPACE!

Retired Shadowrunner.

Retired Shadowrunner.

Retired Shadowrunner.