You know. Part of me hopes that some iteration of the tale of Dwthwyr and Zinabba survived.
Because the story of a young freeman who then fell in love with the sea - and a woman by the sea - when he came to the coast, seems like it would make for a good romance play if we ever end up making more theaters.
Because the story of a young freeman tempted by the allure of the caravans who then fell in love with the sea - and a woman by the sea - when he came to the coast, seems like it would make for a good romance play if we ever end up making more theaters.
Actually, didn't subordinates eat a lot of the overflow before? We'd pretty much be getting a ton of influence actions every turn with a population explosion.
As I recall, its based on the number province actions, not number of provinces directly. So we'd gain like 6 or 7 Expand Econ actions per turn for 4 econ, which is 24-28 econ per turn, and I doubt IW interacts at all. Still an ass load, but not civ destroying
Special: Baby Boom activated. Until capacity is reached or the environmental factors change will receive a free Expand Economy action for every provincial action (currently projected to be 3 next turn)
The overflow from a population explosion would allow us to pay all the increased wealth cost by overflow. In fact we might be forced to do all the most expensive actions we can to stop ourselves from overflowing marshal. Which would be something of a first world problem.
Sounds like we're going to need to be pretty careful how we go about integrating Txolla. We'll have to heavily invest in Expand Econ that turn just not to hit the current "Free Cities disband" level.
Oh hm. It was something like 13 Econ and 18 EE right? Is that written action style where the gained Econ is already accounted for on the EE number or income style where it isn't? Is it +18 LTE or +31 LTE?
As I recall, its based on the number province actions, not number of provinces directly. So we'd gain like 6 or 7 Expand Econ actions per turn for 4 econ, which is 24-28 econ per turn, and I doubt IW interacts at all. Still an ass load, but not civ destroying
Special: Baby Boom activated. Until capacity is reached or the environmental factors change will receive a free Expand Economy action for every provincial action (currently projected to be 3 next turn)
The overflow from a population explosion would allow us to pay all the increased wealth cost by overflow. In fact we might be forced to do all the most expensive actions we can to stop ourselves from overflowing marshal. Which would be something of a first world problem.
High income and refunds cannot fully negate high costs, because our stat cap to cost ratio still constrains our actions. Shorter turns would help though.
Sounds like we're going to need to be pretty careful how we go about integrating Txolla. We'll have to heavily invest in Expand Econ that turn just not to hit the current "Free Cities disband" level.
...wait, it said a free Expand Economy action, that means the base is +2 per province action, and there's a good chance that population explosion, at least, would apply ironworks.
Edit: My math says +14 on plain baby boom, +28 with steel blooded, and +42 Econ -14 Tech (half refunded) with ironworks.
Thanks to gilded age expenditures, colonies being able to absorb 2 econ a turn, and our turn times being halved, we could probably survive a population explosion.
I think that if it was too happen, population explosion is more likely to just give us a flat 2x increase; it would be a bit too ridiculous otherwise.
Still, I think it's an interesting thought experiment; could we deal with 51 econ income a turn? Well, we could mitigate said income a bit by turning off City Support and restoring our cities. For example, if we have:
8 cities total
3 non-free, 5 free
3 levels of block housing
1 lvl3 ironworks
That would cost us 15E per turn, which would bring down our income to 51-15=36. That is assuming we "turn off" taxes and don't get any other permanant or one-time income, mind you.
Our overflow limit before we start paying LTE with the city setup I described is going to be 11, assuming that third block housing upgrades it's city to lvl2. 36-11=25, so we would need to basically spend our entire cap each turn to avoid LTE loss. Painful, but mostly doable.
In practice, I assume that we would also have a repeated action or two eating up Econ. So all together, with a lot of work, we could support that income without crashing LTE. Barely.
Those are great if it's 18 LTE and we can get to a relatively low LTE first, but Expand Econ can vent a lot more LTE per action if we are overflowing en masse.
Hey guys, you've got three stats proccing for Gilded Age innovations (Diplo, Culture, and Mystic), you have to worry about the war, the government reform, and you have to grapple with the remaining issues from activating the levies, so would you all mind terribly much if I held the GA innovation choices off for this phase, to keep the number of choices down?
Ironworks [Guilds] - Huge, centralized centers of iron production, these facilities make high quality iron tools cheaper and more widely available. Every facility adds +1 Econ, -1 EE, -1 Tech to the Expand Economy action. Level 2 and higher also increase the effect of Agriculture and City Support policies at the cost of additional Tech. Level 3 increases City Maintenance by 1 Econ a turn, but produces 1 Tech/turn and changes certain action costs. Each level increases City Attraction by 1. Every {S} cost 3 Econ and 3 Tech for 3 progress, and each completed level of Ironworks also consume an additional 2 sustainable forest. Valleyhome (0/3), Redshore (0/9), Redhills (MP), Blackmouth (0/3)
Ironwork Level 1: +1 Econ, -1 Expansion, -1 Tech to Expand Econ. Each level increases City Attraction by 1. Consumes 2 forest.
Ironwork Level 2: +2 Econ, -2 Expansion, -2 Tech to Expand Econ. City Attraction is +2. Consumes another 2 forests. Agriculture gets +2 Econ, -2 Expansion and -1 Tech. City Support gets +2 Econ offset and -1 Tech cost.
Ironwork Level 3: +3 Econ, -3 Expansion, -3 Tech to Expand Econ. City Attraction is +3. Consumes another 2 forests. Agriculture gets +4 Econ, -4 Expansion, -2 Tech. City Support gets +4 Econ offset and -2 Tech cost. City Maintenance in the city it is built increases by 1. +1 Tech per turn.
The big thing here is that the Ironworks in Redhills only counts for Mass Levy. It doesn't do anything to Expand Economy.
Looking at it, by itself Level 1 is rather shite past a certain amount of them from a "we have to pay for this" perspective while in most other ways its fine(i.e narrative and up to a point making Expand Econ great). Whenever it overwhelms our ability to easily pay for tech basically, it becomes an issue. Now given that actions change as we use them and/or make innovations this may not stay constant. Putting down many Level 1's may or may not make this level better. Like I said the first time around I don't really care if it does, we have to build more of them to get later levels anyway. (Note: We also have indications that IW's affect our disease and city health rolls negatively through dirtiness and pollution)
Now level two is interesting. It gives +2 Econ for -1 Tech to a passive policy, which is a better trade over than what happens to Expand Econ. So in the hypothetical idea that we went for an IW 2 in Redhills and Blackmouth for example instead of the IW 3 we have right now our Secondary Expand Econ action would be +8 Econ, -8 Expansion, -4 Tech; Agriculture would be +5 Econ, -5 Expansion, -2 Tech. City Support would be +6 Econ offset for -2 Tech.
Three level 2's would be +10 Econ, -10 Expansion, -6 Tech for Expand Econ; Agriculture would be +7 Econ, -7 Expansion, -3 Tech. City Support would be +8 Econ for -3 Tech.
If we had four then it becomes +12 Econ, -12 Expansion, -8 Tech for Expand Econ; Agriculture would be +9 Econ, -9 Expansion, -4 Tech. City Support is pushed to +10 Econ offset for -4 Tech.
So its pretty clear that Agriculture will never quite catch up with Expand Econ if we use level 2's. Cost wise in terms of ratio to Econ:Tech Expand Econ is doing approximately 1.5 Econ for 1 Tech and it gets worse as the amount of level 2 IW's increases. Agriculture is doing 2.25 Econ per 1 Tech and also gets worse the more IW 2's there are. So in that respect Agriculture is better for our Tech costs. At one level of IW 2 the Tech cost for Expand Econ is twice that of doing an Agriculture passive.
Now what happens if we have one level 3? Expand Econ is +7 Econ, -7 Expansion, -3 Tech. Agriculture is +5 Econ, -5 Expansion, -2 Tech. City Support is +6 Econ offset for -2 Tech. However we have +1 Tech income, which offsets half the Tech cost of either of Agriculture and City Support, and offsets one sixth the tech cost of a Main Expand Econ.
With two level 3's, Expand Econ is +10 Econ, -10 Expansion, -6 Tech. Agriculture is +9 Econ, -9 Expansion, -4 Tech. City Support is +10 Econ offset for -4 Tech. We have a Tech income of +2/turn.
Three level 3's makes a Secondary Expand Econ +13 Econ, -13 Expansion, -9 Tech. Agriculture is +13 Econ, -13 Expansion, -6 Tech. City Support is +14 Econ Offset for -6 Tech. Tech income is +3/turn.
Doing both a Agriculture and City Support boosted by two IW 3's is -6 Tech overall. With three IW 3's(which requires three level 3 cities) its -9 Tech overall. Not counting refunds(I haven't been by the way).
Now a factor here is that higher levels of IW require higher level cities. Two level two IW's would require two level 2 cities. Which is -6 Econ and a full City Support policy. Three Level 2 cities is -9 Econ per turn, and City Support boosted by three IW 2's covers 8 of that, so Agriculture would have to pay for 1 leaving a net Econ income of +6. This is made worse by putting IW 3+ into normal cities since it boosts their maintenance. Offsetting this requires making those cities into a Free City. Of note is that around three cities city support stops keeping up and has to be compensated.
Redshore with IW 3 costs 4 Econ a turn(1 from Panem, 2 as a level 2 and 3 city, 1 from IW 3). Our current Agriculture policy looks like +5 Econ, -5 Expansion, -2 Tech and City Support is +6 Econ offset for -2 Tech. We also now have +1 Tech income. Our total Tech income with one City Support going seems to be [+2-2] after this. 1 of this is refunded so it looks like (+1)[+2-2].
So building these things tall, in a Free City especially, seems to help. My first course to unfucking our Econ generation would be upgrading Redhills and its already a Free City, but its not well located for that so there's not much I can do there. Blackmouth however could be another option. What would turning it into a Free City, upgrading it to a level 3 city and building a Level 3 IW do for us?
Expand Econ becomes +10 Econ, -10 Expansion, -6 Tech. Agriculture becomes +9 Econ, -9 Expansion, -4 Tech. City Support becomes +10 Econ offset for -4 Tech. Our city maintenance is -8 + 10 for a net of +2. Net Tech income from having two IW 3's(+2) and an Agriculture and City Support policy going(-8) and our base income(+1) is -5 Tech. When current refunds apply that turns into -5(+1) Tech a turn.
Hmmmmmm... if the upgrade to Arsenals gives us a tech refund of 1/palace we go from 1.5 refund to 3. That would cover most of what IW 3's do/require. It doesn't seem likely.
Speculation time now, I'm wondering if IW 4 may or may not allow for Tech Refund. I'm not entirely sure how it would, possibly through some kind of workflow efficiency letting the Artisans have more time.
Conclusions wise I am interested in building and then upgrading an IW in another city besides Redshore. Maybe Upper Valleyhome after we complete the Canal. Maybe in Blackmouth. Maybe in Lower Valleyhome since I seem to recall that the badlands might be mineral rich. It seems like stacking these things is much more useful than just having tons of little ones dotted around. There may or may not be innovations as we build more of the various levels which make those levels better. There definitely seems to be some form of pressure to switch from Expand Econ to something else past a certain number of level 3 Ironworks.
Changelog: The numbers should be right now and its IW 3 that are the turnover point between using Agriculture instead of Expand Economy.
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