Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Looking into the EE threshold math, when you factor in marketplaces increasing city attraction by two, the difference probably doesn't matter. We'll likely be gaining a city with either option, and that's the only result of the EE cost that currently matters to us. So there's no sense complicating the matter, really.
Respectfully disagree. Ensuring we can pay for unexpected costs when prices are ballooning is easily the best investment we can make.
Based on AN's personal summary of the situation, I am now convinced he will be Heroic Intrigue, not Diplo. Fingers crossed. :lol
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
Can we even pay the wealth costs at this level of development? I'm worried about losing all wealth and being forced to adopt someone else's slavery traditions.(I mean we probably can but I'd like to see the math please)
Also, we probably should have chosen a harder to break religious structure, considering how many important things are maintained by the priests.
Also, we probably should have chosen a harder to break religious structure, considering how many important things are maintained by the priests.
Yes, we can. But at this point, the capital investment in many things are just so damn high, even the things that would lower the cost of investments, like academies or cement kilns.
- Location
- Australia
Yes. It won't be easy, but it's possible.
@Academia Nut when we get the government reform next turn. If our stat cap increases, will it happen before or after overflow is calculated for that turn?
And AN isn't an expert on agriculture. He knows a hell of a lot, but I can't honestly expect that he knows everything in detail.
What happens is that some runoff occurs as plant available nitrogen is highly water soluble along with particulates. These particulates are a mixed bag, but the organic parts are not a huge amount.
What basically happens with Black Soil is as follows:
The Charcoal and Clay shards mix in such a way that they create a kind of sponge that is able to bind truly impressive amounts of nutrients and water through colossal surface area and chemical bindings that plant roots (and/or soil life like bugs and bacteria that process it for the plants) are able to overpower. That alone limits N washout. Especially as the concentration is simply not the same as with modern agriculture where a wheat field may get 200 kg pure N per hectare. We are maybe at 50 or so as the volume of Black Soil is simply that much bigger and thus harder to apply without machines.
And all that Nitrogen bound up in the organic mass is not permanent. Everytime you give it air via the plough or other, the bacteria process it and the plants eat it. The storage capacity of Black Soil, however, is much higher, binding a lot. In short, the Nitrogen which is what actually boosts the plant growth the most runs out very, very quickly. You can expect to lose 1 percentage point per season (of those 5%).
The particulate washout that happens is indeed a boon to the HK, but like the Nile, it needs to happen every single year. The much smaller amount they get is used up much faster than what happens to us.
And no, they won't get a Black Soil layer from this. The Charcoal is unlikely to survive the conditions and be broken down by bacteria while the clay-silt is nothing special on it's own.
Further compounding the issue is that the Nitrogen they get washes out just as easily. So without the reapplication they get from our runoff and the usual silt, the floods are going to decrease fertility fairly rapidly as they are left with only the substrate but no fertilizer.
What I expect to happen when the Dam provides a pool where the particulates can fall out is that the HK see increasingly poor harvests along that river after 3-4 year delay.
The fish will help some, but you truly underestimate the sheer amount of fertilizer required and how much dry mass the fish and their waste actually provide.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
Have we invented string instruments yet? Because I need a skilled Ymaryn craftsman to make me the world's tiniest violin.
The silver lining of increased wealth cost is that this makes us and our subsidiary states that much more alien to everyone else and thus makes us less compatible with different thoughts.
It also means we have a much more vibrant domestic economy as the Guilds can sell their low-quality products to more people, producing more demand for the low to mid skilled artisans, allowing for more social mobility, tax income, innovation and so on.
Basically, if we make it through this for 3 to 4 turns, the Guilds will have found ways to lower labour costs again. Either mechanization, rationalized production processes or by somehow getting wages to reduce, which is very unlikely.
And while the Traders will throw a tantrum, I'm not too sure that they will stop innovation as that actually hurts their bottom line. They want to punish the Crown, not themselves.
Also @Abby Normal , or anyone else who knows for that matter. When we lose a single point of stability we lose 2 Econ, correct?
Spite is rarely rational.
Mind, Txolla is using the same river. But they will just add more Black Soil in that area. And it's only a very minor part of their total territory.
And as the Txolla reapply the runoff but without a Dam in the way to catch it, the Harmurri are unlikely to even notice anything on their end.
So we basically perform a targeted macro-scale attack that specifically punishes the HK, benefits us in a variety of ways and doesn't meaningfully impact our allies.
Later historians will probably ascribe the reigning King some Machiavellian traits for that brilliant move.
True enough.
But they will still try to cut costs in the meantime or be outcompeted.
Edit:
I think I may have an idea as to how the Guilds will try to reduce costs: Cottage Industry.
Without any wars going on, the Yeomen have nothing to do. Even with a war going on, a lot of farmhands and former Half Exiles have little to do in the winter months. So they might be willing to make some extra cash doing simple works for a pittance but as they have no other income in that time anyway, they still profit.
The only stumbling block is Corvee labour. If that happens in winter, it won't be done. But odds are most of that is done is between planting and harvest as they have the most idle time and conditions are better.
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ThatGazzer
Minds Eye Bind
- Location
- PNW
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I wonder if the government reform adds a Parlament?
That would be neat.
That would be neat.
ExNihilo
SPACE!
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
IIRC that's basically what it is.
I'm still hoping for something like a giant dome like the Pantheon. The Patricians would certainly go for it because that's some incredible engineering for it's time and thus lots of prestige whenever a foreign dignitary comes by to ask something.
And the Guilds would go for it because that's some incredible advertisement.
And the Guilds would go for it because that's some incredible advertisement.
Well, it does make factions more powerful, so in a very house of lords way, maybe?
We even have our own political parties.
Give it a few centuries, and I bet the Kings power will steadily erode until he isn't the Supreme Commander but the First Amongst Equals. Sort of like a Prime Minister.
And given that every Patrician will want to be in that position, they will eventually copy the idea from Freehills about term limits so they have better odds of getting the job themselves.
I wouldn't even mind. For all the annoyance with the Factions, listening to them whenever possible is basically the beginning of democracy.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
In all likelihood, we'll be claiming the HK's lowland territories before we see any of that happening, probably adding them to Txolla if they don't become another vassal. We're going to war with them next turn and they don't have cavalry, they will not be able to hold their conquests.
- Location
- England
For a non nomad polity we have quite the cavalry tradition- one the Highlanders lack. We saw what 5 cav could do against 2 and it wasn't pretty.
One thing to consider is that our advanced military units are now a wasting asset, as it will be prohibitively expensive to get any more of them.
That's going to be a real problem as cavalry spreads and Freehills leverages the Straits to feel the wealth to build up its own Navy. I'd expect that within a few turns we're going to end up extorted for protection money by our neighbours and we'll have no choice by to pay up.
If we ever get pirates in the Ymaryn Sea again we're in real trouble. Similarly if a true horde of horse nomads hits us.
This is all a compounding problem, as this kind of thing will hit our wealth hard, further reducing our ability to do anything about it.
The other long term effect I see as likely is Personal Stewards of Nature and sustainable forestry going out of the window, as they're going to look more and more like an unaffordable luxury. Without exploiting the labour of the bottom ten percent and essentially confiscating the surplus they create, the rest of our society is going to have significantly less free time and other resources to spend on thIs.
That's going to be a real problem as cavalry spreads and Freehills leverages the Straits to feel the wealth to build up its own Navy. I'd expect that within a few turns we're going to end up extorted for protection money by our neighbours and we'll have no choice by to pay up.
If we ever get pirates in the Ymaryn Sea again we're in real trouble. Similarly if a true horde of horse nomads hits us.
This is all a compounding problem, as this kind of thing will hit our wealth hard, further reducing our ability to do anything about it.
The other long term effect I see as likely is Personal Stewards of Nature and sustainable forestry going out of the window, as they're going to look more and more like an unaffordable luxury. Without exploiting the labour of the bottom ten percent and essentially confiscating the surplus they create, the rest of our society is going to have significantly less free time and other resources to spend on thIs.
- Location
- The Middle of the Howling Wilderness
Not really? Expand Forests doesn't cost any wealth, so I'm pretty sure most of the forestry stuff we do wasn't primarily through half-exiles, but rather through corvee labor.
I concur.
But I'm afraid our optimism is going to be punished severely.
Because the estimates so far can be summed up as 'Quick victorious war'.
And I break into a cold sweat when I hear that.
But the realistic part of me says that the bulk of the HK army is deployed against the Harm as they aren't a minor power that the HK can sandbag. And if we deploy our new, shiny Cavalry that the HK won't have detailed knowledge about, we should be able to outmanoeuvre them horribly.
OTOH, their whole strategy so far seems insane to me. They attacked both the former Khem colonies, risking a fight with Freehills. They attacked a peer power thats the Harmurri. And they have a Great Power on their frontlawn that they have a long history of belligerence with and basically declared 'come at me bro!' by being distracted by a rival power. Of course, a lot can be explained by the priests using the war to solidify their power and/or thinking their God is with them and shall help them to victory. Until they get a Reality Check.
We may even end up in a situation where the HK erupt into Civil War and we help install a new King who owes us which was pretty standard at that time. I think that's how the Romans got their hands on Egypt. So we may not even need to assault all those fortresses but take the lowlands and prop up a heir to the throne, whom then needs our troops to remain on the throne.
We then merely forego leaving our new vassal and instead Ymarynize them as much as possible.