Paths of Civilization

[Susano]

Our standard of living is far higher than any of the surrounding countries and we are the people driving technological and social progress the two greatest long term solutions to human suffering in existence I refuse to sacrifice all the that we have built and the long term benefits it grants us just because people are to impatient to wait for us to advance to the level where abolishing the half exile system (which is still better that slavery if not as much as we;d like) becomes practical.

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Ah, the usual "Manifest Destiny" stuff we've seen so often in such debates. That because we are the shining city on the hill, the beacon for the rest of the world, everything we do is a priori justified and good!

...but it doesn't work that way. Right now, we're not much better at all than the surrounding cultures. In terms of social development, Freehills, from whom we had to copy Division of Power, may well be ahead of us, even. Here is the thing: We're only the good guys, the guys who are worth emulating, if we actually act good.

 

[Raichu1972]

If this was real life, i'd consider such an act, utter stupidity And reckless
Its one thing to do it slowly over time, but all at once while we are spending a large amount of wealth with trade going off and on right after a plague is... a strange strategy

Slippery slope arguments are REALLY unconvincing.

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How so?
I'll explain it more in depth I guess, if it will make my point more convincing.

[] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
"We basically already have slaves, Slavery isn't so bad! It's basically hereditary anyways, might as well just go all in, right?"
I hopefully shouldn't need to explain the moral degradation here.

[] [Purity] While their vigilante violence was wrong, maybe they have a point here (Pride in Acceptance downgraded to Cosmopolitan Acceptance)
"You know, the whole violence thing was in poor taste, but maybe they had a point about the filthy foreigners ruining everything..."
Becoming more Xenophobic, persecuting those who have done no wrong, Purity will still be there to further erode this value, now with precedence.

[] [Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)
"The Law should cover and protect everyone...except for those people. Some hypocrisy is acceptable after all"
We have many laws in place to protect people. creating a group of people that are not protected by said laws will just lead to them being treated as slaves anyways. Anyone could do what they wanted to them, since if some laws don't apply to these "impure" people already, why do these other ones?

It should be rather clear to see how these options degrade the moral foundations of the Ymaryn, and make cruel and malicious actions far more acceptable.

 

[8bitBob]

We double our wealth costs on everything, we NEED markets. We'll be down to +2 Wealth/turn, and we'd die as soon as trade disruption or any number of similar things hit us.

Each market is 3 progress for +2 wealth/turn. Markets will cost us 6 wealth to build manually, making it virtually impossible to do so. We will be required to use Infrastructure policies to build them.

Every 1.5 Infrastructure policies is worth +2 Wealth/turn/turn. That is, every turn it will build Markets so that we gain +2 Wealth/turn up until we hit +10 Wealth/turn (all True Cities have markets)

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This. If you had any inhibitions about marketplaces and infrastructure passives, you need to lose them now. We are straight up going to die if we don't sort out our wealth problems. That far outweighs the potential problems they may have.

You want sweeping social change? This is how we pay for it.

 

[Rakuhn]

We don't have it recovered for the Traders yet, and I'm saying I expect four failures to lead to two penalties. Doubling our Wealth costs is a massive obstacle for passing Guild and Trader Spite Quests.

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Assuming that we succeed at the current patrician quest and fail the current trader and guild quests, this is how we'll deal with the upcoming spite quests.

Patrician
-Complete, no penalty
-Fail, no penalty

Trader
-Complete, no penalty
-Support faction/fail, -4 culture, 1 secondary
-Suppress, -2 stability, 1 secondary
-Fail, spite penalty

Guild
-Complete, no penalty
-Support faction x2/fail, -8 culture, 2 secondaries
-Suppress, -2 stability, 1 secondary
-Fail, spite penalty

I'm not too concerned with what the spite penalty, as we are likely to actively avoid it if it is worse than support faction actions or a suppression action.

 

[Citino]

[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)

 

[Da Boyz]

So I'd just like to lay out factors which would inhibit the spread of spread of slavery and thus make crushing the Puritans a viable path.

1. We're currently sitting on Religious Authority 9, Stability 2 and Legitimacy 3. Translating stats into the actual situation this means we have incredibly powerful moral guardians, that people feel that things are going well and that our government is viewed as having the right to rule. While @Academia Nut has yet to say if this will have an impact on our odds it does make it likely that the odds are pretty small. Thousands of years of tradition do not simply evaporate overnight and I'm kinda baffled as to how this situation managed to arise from some common whataboutism in the first place.
2. Disseminating slaves throughout the entire empire would take time, at best it would take decades for new slavers to be attracted and for a glut of slaves to be shipped in to every corner of the Empire. While it would again be nice to have AN confirm this it seems likely that the spread of slavery is something we'd be able to take action on.
3. I'd like to reemphasize that this is thousands of years of tradition which would have to go away. "Because the gods say so" has been the cornerstone against slavery since time immemorial. The idea that it would go away quickly is kinda absurd, at worst you'd think it'd only be a few people subtly trying it at first because it would go against the law to do so. While given time this might spread it would start small, and we have ample experience crushing slavers.

 

[Nianque]

[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn)
[X] [PP] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)

Honestly not too thrilled with it, but none of the options are good.

 

[Glassware]

We double our wealth costs on everything, we NEED markets. We'll be down to +2 Wealth/turn, and we'd die as soon as trade disruption or any number of similar things hit us.

Each market is 3 progress for +2 wealth/turn. Markets will cost us 6 wealth to build manually, making it virtually impossible to do so. We will be required to use Infrastructure policies to build them.

Every 1.5 Infrastructure policies is worth +2 Wealth/turn/turn. That is, every turn it will build Markets so that we gain +2 Wealth/turn up until we hit +10 Wealth/turn (all True Cities have markets).

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Manual infrastructure actions should consume salterns, which cost 6 econ and tech per +1 wealth/turn. That way we diversify our income sources. Also, we have yet to find the limit of our saltern expansions so I'm hopeful.

 

[Ghostdevil]

How so?
I'll explain it more in depth I guess, if it will make my point more convincing.

[] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
"We basically already have slaves, Slavery isn't so bad! It's basically hereditary anyways, might as well just go all in, right?"
I hopefully shouldn't need to explain the moral degradation here.

[] [Purity] While their vigilante violence was wrong, maybe they have a point here (Pride in Acceptance downgraded to Cosmopolitan Acceptance)
"You know, the whole violence thing was in poor taste, but maybe they had a point about the filthy foreigners ruining everything..."
Becoming more Xenophobic, persecuting those who have done no wrong, Purity will still be there to further erode this value, now with precedence.

[] [Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)
"The Law should cover and protect everyone...except for those people. Some hypocrisy is acceptable after all"
We have many laws in place to protect people. creating a group of people that are not protected by said laws will just lead to them being treated as slaves anyways. Anyone could do what they wanted to them, since if some laws don't apply to these "impure" people already, why do these other ones?

It should be rather clear to see how these options degrade the moral foundations of the Ymaryn, and make cruel and malicious actions far more acceptable.

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Except Most of those are fixable
and hurt less people
in the best case scenario this current winning option is the best, but in anything less than that its the Worst option as we collapse, all we built ends in dust, slavery is introduced for real instead of half-exiles (because the surviving nations around us practice it), Normally this would be fearmongering, but the current winning options bring us close if not BEYOND that point.

 

[bluefur87]

"So, as you can see, this is where the gods cut the rock for the Great River to pass through here. It is the hardest rock in the valley system, which makes it a pain to work with, but also the best place to drive our anchors, and one of the narrowest points in the entire region. The plan currently has us building a temporary dam just upstream to divert at least some of the water into one of the side canyons. That region is a bit calmer but the river is wider and the bed is made from gravel and mud rather than solid rock, so it won't hold in the long run once we get a reservoir built up behind it. Anyway, the hard rock here means that once we cut anchor points in, the anchors will fail before the rock. Now, there's a bunch of things that can fail other than the anchors, but those will be fairly significant in terms of overall strength. Still, the stronger we can make the pilings and anchors, the better," the Chief of Dam Construction explained to the king as part of the inspection tour.

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Do we have geology?!? Have we identified the same strata of rock over from where the canal is and mapped it all the way to the Dam!??! Or is it just 'the same type of rock', because if it's the former, holy crap.

Modify megaproject?
[] [Dam] Keep as is
[] [Dam] Use stronger materials, keep as is (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs)
[] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)

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And so it was foretold!

How did the debates go?
[] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
[] [Purity] While their vigilante violence was wrong, maybe they have a point here (Pride in Acceptance downgraded to Cosmopolitan Acceptance)
[] [Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)
[] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[] [Purity] Look to the heavens for a sign (Random, could be all good results from above options, could be all bad results from above options, likely a mix)

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And so it was foretold!


[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)

I foresee the liquidity crises returning with a vengence.

 

[notgreat]

Manual infrastructure actions should consume salterns, which cost 6 econ and tech per +1 wealth/turn. That way we diversify our income sources. Also, we have yet to find the limit of our saltern expansions so I'm hopeful.

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6 econ, 6 tech, and 2 secondaries for +1 wealth/turn and IIRC +2 Wealth on completion? (something like that, someone should check)

Each secondary is worth ~3 stats (5 stats for Expand Econ, but much worse for everything else). That means it needs ~16 turns to pay off in pure stats. It's very slow.

Still worth grabbing a few of them though, yeah. We need all the help we can get to pay for the doubling.

 

[10ebbor10]

On a side note, each main turn we'll have 2 Guild mains and 1 guild secondary to fill. Untill system change anyway. These are our options for that.

I expect we'll be building a lot of docks.

Art Patronage [Guild] [Priest] - Wealth of the first and second kind can be used to create wealth of the third kind to the benefit of all
*S: -1 Econ, -6 Wealth, +3 Culture, +1 Tech, +1 Prestige, potential innovations x2
*M: -1 Econ, -10 Wealth, +5 Culture, +1 Tech, +1 Prestige, higher chance of innovations x2

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Build Docks [Guild][Trader] - With large numbers of ships being built, a new place to store them all, the goods they bring in, and a place to build them might be a good idea
*S: -1 Econ, +1 Diplo, increased trade power
*M: -2 Econ, -2 Wealth, +3 Diplo, potential for new innovations x2, increased trade power

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Efficient Charcoal Kilns [Guild] - With better processes, large Guild controlled kilns can be built to efficiently turn wood into charcoal
*S: -1 Econ, -2 Wealth, -2 Tech, -2 Sustainable Forest used
*M: -2 Econ, -4 Wealth, -1 Tech, -3 Sustainable Forest used, other effects
Note: Efficient Charcoal production cannot take the total Sustainable Forest usage below 1/2 of the total

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Increase Cement Production [Guild] – While this material can use the same kilns as for pottery and glassmaking, it benefits more from raw size and throughput than the more precise control of those materials, and the other artisans complain if you take up their space with cement
*S: -1 Econ, -6 Wealth, -2 Tech, 1 sustainable forest used, certain projects boosted, other effects
*M: -2 Econ, -8 Wealth, -3 Tech, 1 sustainable forest used, certain projects boosted, other effects

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More Warships [Guild][Traders] - Many standard boats are no longer things need to worry about, but warships are something else entirely
*S: -3 Econ, -6 Wealth, -2 Martial, +1 Tech; +1 Naval, additional effects
*M: -3 Econ, -10 Wealth, -3 Martial, +1 Tech; +2 Naval, additional effects

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Plant Cash Crops - Textiles [Guild][Yeomen] – Planting these water and soil hungry crops can produce large quantities of useful fibres for sturdy ropes and comfortable clothing. Available: Hemp, Cotton, Flax
*S: -3 Econ, -4 Econ Expansion, +6 Wealth, +1 Diplo with boats, +1 Econ next turn other effects
*M: -5 Econ, -5 Econ Expansion, +7 Wealth, +2 Diplo with boats, +1 Culture, +1 Econ next turn, other effects

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Study Metal [Priests][Guilds] - Iron and copper, gold and silver, what other secrets are hidden in metal and stone?
* S: -1 Econ, -4 Wealth, -1 Mysticism, +1 Tech, small chance of new insights x2
* M: -1 Econ, -6 Wealth, -1 Mysticism, improved chance of new insights x2

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Support Artisans [Guild] - With the growing importance of skilled artisans to the maintenance of society, additional support may sometimes be needed
*S: -1 Econ, -6 Wealth, +3 Tech, +1 Culture, potential innovations x2
*M: -1 Econ, -10 Wealth, +5 Tech, +1 Culture, higher chance of innovations x2

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[No7sHere]

Perfect is the enemy of good, sure we might be able to survive with the additional costs and if we do we have certainly done something truly good, but there is also a significant chance that these costs will break us and that we will not only loose the progress we might make with this choice and all the other progress we have made before but we would also loose the chance to improve again for a very long time. Our technology is improving and our society does not have any true attachments to to practices we consider unsavory, in the long term as long as we survive and do not radically deviate from our course these issues are almost certain to resolve. I would rather take the slower and surer path while preserving what we have instead of risking it all now on a gamble. Even if we succeed it will make solving many of the other issues we would like to much more difficult in the long term.

 

[drake_azathoth]

...You know, I do have to admit it would be pretty funny if our society collapsed due to social upheaval before we could complete the Dam we've been planning the last thousand-some years.

Not saying that's gonna happen, just bitterly ironic if it did.

 

[No7sHere]

[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] While their vigilante violence was wrong, maybe they have a point here (Pride in Acceptance downgraded to Cosmopolitan Acceptance)
This is a more manageable risk.

 

[BlueFlamingWings]

Hmm. Okay. It seems we're heading toward increased probation on slavery and questioning the usage of half-exiles. Okay.

I actually don't think, despite the factions reactions, that this will lead to major societal upheaval. In a generation or two this will be the new normal.

Still, assuming this leads to greater freedoms for the half-exiles, I hope that our next Great Artist comes from them. There's a whole other side to the People that were previously unvoiced.

Their story will be interesting.

 

[Xantalos]

Man, imagine the reactions of the patricians if we end up going through with this.

'Yeah, so maybe you do have a point about the half-exiles...'

'So you'll—'

'—Re-evaluate the entirety of the system that creates them! Can't have moral inconsistency here, we're the Ymaryn!'

'Wait no no that's not what I meant nO'

 

[bluefur87]

So can anyone give me a link to the new actions we're going to see next turn?

It's been a long time since I've delved into the dark world of stats, but I have an idea and I think we need to delve into the dark world of stats here.

 

[Reader of all]

Man, imagine the reactions of the patricians if we end up going through with this.

'Yeah, so maybe you do have a point about the half-exiles...'

'So you'll—'

'—Re-evaluate the entirety of the system that creates them! Can't have moral inconsistency here, we're the Ymaryn!'

'Wait no no that's not what I meant nO'

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Nope that is basically everyone's reaction so expect that every faction will actively work against the crown in some way shape or form.

 

[Nianque]

So... Will trying to take Warships next turn cost 10 wealth? Because that's a lot.

 

[keenscythe]

[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)​

[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3

Voting for Stronkest Dam-Kun to make up for ignoring it so long.
Same thing for Half-Exile Reform.

Hopefully the Doubled Wealth costs will be only a temporary phase while we wait for Technology to catch up and lower costs now that there a driving need for it.

Hopefully the advantage the Great-Dam has over the Good-Dam is that it is a wonder.

 

[065tdsa]

[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)

 

[Killer_Whale]

So... Will trying to take Warships next turn cost 10 wealth? Because that's a lot.

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We're going to need to support the trader faction, to give us time to get the wealth for the warships. It will also reset the Division of Power counter.

 

[Mortis]

[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)​

[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)

Voting for Stronkest Dam-Kun to make up for ignoring it so long.
Same thing for Half-Exile Reform.

Hopefully the Doubled Wealth costs will be only a temporary phase while we wait for Technology to catch up and lower costs now that there a driving need for it.

Hopefully the advantage the Great-Dam has over the Good-Dam is that it is a wonder.

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No, AN has said that the difference is basically "dickwaving"

 

[10ebbor10]

Hopefully the Doubled Wealth costs will be only a temporary phase while we wait for Technology to catch up and lower costs now that there a driving need for it.

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The weird thing is that this change appears to be killing technology. Innovation roll wealth cost double. New furnaces and other industry doubles. Advanced city infrastructure doubles.

Typical hard labor like Black Soil and plantation labor remains the same.