It will be expanded on soonish, but Crow has been divided into several aspects:

Crow the Teacher - the outwardly friendliest of the aspects, this is Crow as the teacher of knowledge, which is related to the ideas of teaching Gwygoytha back in the day and how that story got passed on and morphed. The thing with Crow the Teacher is that this version is by far the hardest to understand, so can in fact be the least helpful
Crow the Trickster - fairly standard trickster archetype, this aspect is considered the best for humanity if not for humans. He's the guy who will wreck a rival, elevate a poor man to power, and then let his hubris have it all come crashing down on his head so that the community learns an important lesson. Dangerous but curiously benevolent, the stories about Crow the Trickster emphasise that while you simultaneously need to be cautious around him and assume he's made you a part of a trick he's playing and thus you shouldn't take things at face value, you also shouldn't actively defy him lest he play a worse prank on you.
Crow the Devourer - this is perhaps the most sophisticated piece of theology among the People, in that the use of Crow as a culture hero ran into problems with the introduction of strong taboos against the handling of corpses. Not just the fact that the actual birds are carrion eaters, but Gwygoytha also introduced the idea that the crows eating the dead could learn their secrets and tell them to those who could listen. Crow the Devourer is Crow at his most transgressive and yet is also strangely benevolent, a sort of psychopomp character that takes the souls of the dead away from the living. Crow the Devourer knows great and terrible secrets

The different 'aspects' relate to the shaman's use of masks in ritual ceremonies, and there is an interplay between them. The Teacher can be exchanged with the Trickster but not the Devourer directly and the same relation for the Devourer, while the Trickster can change to either of the other two at will, sitting in the middle and being the most malleable. This is in fact part of what makes the Trickster so dangerous, he can switch to the Devourer at will and thus if you sufficiently annoy him he can just eat you.

There's a more complex theology developing in my head, but I don't think sufficient time has passed from the original events to have transformed fully to cosmic myth rather than simply fantastical legend or for the People to have developed their theological understand to fully encapsulate some more abstract ideas.
Teachers being incomprehensible sounds like it has something to do with the Shaman teaching process :p

So do the Blackbirds have a weighting towards one aspect or another? Their job role is most heavily Trickster after all, but assassinations sound like a Devourer job.

Yes, there is already a sort of cosmology of 'Celestial, Terrestrial, and Demonic spirits'. The Spirit Talkers are most interested in the Celestial spirits, while the Dead Priests have obviously made hideous and unstable pacts with demons for power. They haven't quite made the leap, but once mining starts up they might decide that there is also a class of Cthonic spirits who are Celestial in character but dwell in the deeps rather than the heavens.
So differences...
-Celestial - Like a high chief, they don't generally interact with mortals or Terrestrial spirits and are hard to sway from their course, though they can be predicted by observing how they interact with the Terrestrial spirits. For the untouchable fixtures of the universe like the sun, moon and weather.

-Terrestrial - Can be interacted with meaningfully and guided by those with the knowledge. Plants, animals, emotions...not very sure where people fit into this though.

-Demonic - Blamed for everything that goes wrong. Might be associated with the dead hanging around instead of returning to the cycle of life?


Transport stuff like carriages via boats to the southern coastal settlement or through land trails to the southern settlement, and from there to the lowland one, yeah. Since the badlands are a harsher terrain this is likely an easier route. It also provides a notable benefit in that goods will be transported more easily from our coastal settlement as a result, rather than needing to go up the canal to the valley then from the valley to the badlands and down again. So we'll be able to set up two different lines of goods to the lowlands: coastal through the SCS, and valley through the badlands. The lowlands settlement in turn can be made into a fortress that will protect this entrance to the valley and the southern coastal settlement.
Uh...thats a worse route than through Valleyhome. Much worse.
Some thoughts:
If the snails that we're farming are actually the same snails that produce Tyrian Purple then we might want to expand their farming when we meet some proper trade partners because historically this is the most valuable dye in the world the potential return could well be stunning.

In terms of medicinal advancements I feel there are several we could achieve at our current tech level:
Firstly hygiene, the importance of this one cannot be overstated it makes literally everything better. It reduces disease and infection and considering how our medicine expert described his realization about how diseases are transmitted we seem to be quite close to this already.
Secondly drugs, it we could improve our herbalism so that we could produce something like a painkiller that could be huge and allow for more complicated surgery.
Thirdly Anatomy/Surgical Techniques, if we could learn about anatomy through dissection and come up with techniques like tourniquets, sewing wounds, amputation and other such techniques we could massively reduce the effects of injuries.

If we learned about all three of these things our medical skill would reach a level almost completely unseen until the enlightenment.
1) Hygiene is one of our early principles. It derives from the death taboo.
2) Drugs sound like our primary treatment at present. Berries and herbs to raise the spirits.
3) Our worst skill, as we engage in little warfare close to home to refine it, while our taboo on corpses make it difficult to study anatomy, though Crow the Devourer gives an out to sufficiently motivated shamans. for the best surgeons, look to the Dead Priests.

Systematic human sacrifice, war and mutilation develops it FAST. The sacrificing gives their priests hands on experience with human insides in a controlled environment. The endless war means people learn how to stop bleeding, stitch wounds, remove shards from wounds, cauterize and amputate. And any culture making castrated slaves common knows how to disinfect and seal wounds, or they'd just lose the lot to infection(considering the proximity to waste, any open wound in the groin is waiting for infection)

Which also means that their wounded, armored warriors generally get to fight another day.
 
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Uh...thats a worse route than through Valleyhome. Much worse.
It's a worse route than through valleyhome for transporting goods from valley home, but it's a significantly better route than valleyhome for transporting goods from the coast, because you can transport them by ocean (which is basically the same as the canal but not in the opposite direction) to a settlement that is very close to the lowland settlement.

The canal goes literally the opposite way, then the goods are sent to valley home which is a couple days travel, then have to go through Lower Valley, and then through the badlands. That's like twice as long and breakage is more likely.

Our worst skill, as we engage in little warfare close to home to refine it,
As in we'd practice surgery on injured-but-not-yet-dead warriors, or...?

Agreed with the above. But veekie, I know you think they castrate every slave but it doesn't make sense. The gelded slaves are probably just special house/pleasure slaves, done to evoke a more effeminate nature and reduce the likelihood of undesired sexual intercourse among slaves and with female housemembers. Otherwise you're wasting three days or so of unhindered work and the risk of infection among general slaves, and also decreasing their strength in the long term.

not very sure where people fit into this though.
terrestrial spirits who lost in a war with the demonic ones

The Dead Priest interlude stated they believed it was us,
aka there's no evidence the ST believe that. Especially since they continued trading with us, despite rejecting those traders who went through the lowlands.
 
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It's a worse route than through valleyhome for transporting goods from valley home, but it's a significantly better route than valleyhome for transporting goods from the coast, because you can transport them by ocean (which is basically the same as the canal but not in the opposite direction) to a settlement that is very close to the lowland settlement.
But theres no route from the sea to below the cataracts that isn't passing through very rocky terrain with waterfalls....or Lower valleyhome.

As in we'd practice surgery on injured-but-not-yet-dead warriors, or...?
Yes.
We'd see far more farming and herding accidents(blunt injury mostly) than weapon injuries.

But veekie, I know you think they castrate every slave but it doesn't make sense. The gelded slaves are probably just special house/pleasure slaves, done to evoke a more effeminate nature and reduce the likelihood of undesired sexual intercourse among slaves and with female housemembers.
No, I don't, but making it a commodity at all requires major medical skill. Slaves are valuable as hell. You don't waste quality slaves to death by infection.

It probably originated as part of their sacrifices, "how do we sacrifice more to please the gods without destroying vital manpower or the ability to work?". Not many things you can do that with and the tongue is MUCH more complex to remove nonlethally

aka there's no evidence the ST believe that. Especially since they continued trading with us, despite rejecting those traders who went through the lowlands.
Yeah, STs know the truth. But it just makes them saltier
 
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But theres no route from the sea to below the cataracts that isn't passing through very rocky terrain with waterfalls....or Lower valleyhome.
The potential southern coast settlement might have much less trouble getting to a lowland settlement than the lower valley. Keep in mind there is a large border of hard to cross mountains to it's south.

That said, we don't know how accurate the map is and our people haven't even explored the southern coastline much so we can't really tell. I also really doubt it would be effective to transport horses by sea currently. That's more of a surprise tactic than anything else.

Edit: Misread part of that, feeling too under the weather today to really make sense so ignore me if I'm not.
 
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But theres no route from the sea to below the cataracts that isn't passing through very rocky terrain with waterfalls....or Lower valleyhome.
R.e. terrain, what evidence do you have for that? The site of the southern coastal settlement is hilly, but we have no reason to expect it to be "very rocky with waterfalls." The only two places that are very hilly with waterfalls are places that a river runs through.

Admittedly, I'm not actually sure whether the settlement's site "below the cataracts" is still in the badlands or not. I'd assumed that it was - and that the lowland settlement is thus on the small section of the lowland terrain that's below the mountain sigil and to the west of the river, and thus a straight shot from the southern coastal settlement site - but if it's not it's likely that there would be rocky terrain with waterfalls. Regardless, this still means that the material from the coastal settlement has to go up the river, up the canal, down another river, and then down the cataract and rocky terrain with waterfalls. This is overall a larger distance and a path more likely to run into waterfalls, as it would be traveling parallel rather than perpendicular to the river.

Ah, it's just that you'd said they did -or at least I'd read it as such- immediately after the post describing gelded slaves.

I agree that you don't waste quality slaves by infection, but there's probably a fair number of slaves who aren't quality. And even if the generative organs are a theoretically potent sacrifice, they probably don't bother to process that many slaves unless it's been made a requirement for ownership.

As an aside: If it's been made a requirement for ownership we could maybe extend that to the temple proper owning all slaves, because the slaves are all sacrifices to the gods. One could also sacrifice things like vanity (slashes across the face), the ability to run (rings through the feet running around the achilles tendon, linked by rope), the ability to "talk" by puncturing rings between their lips and tying them together, etc. (Rings can be metal, stone, bone, or a very hard and well polished wood.) These could be in addition to or in place of sacrificing the generative ability. Possibly, only one form of sacrifice is required. This would perhaps result in a distribution of sacrifice type among the different classes. Because all of these types have a risk of infection, limiting medical knowledge means that the caring for these types of infections would to some degree further bind the populace to the priesthood.
 
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Edit: Ok wasn't expecting SV to spaz on me... anyway this aside. @Academia Nut I think we can safely close the vote any time you wish. Those poor poor other options. They never stood a chance.
Adhoc vote count started by VoidZero on Apr 3, 2017 at 5:34 PM, finished with 12737 posts and 68 votes.
 
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I think that we can all agree that our long term goal for the Dead Priests is to drive them from their city, set up our own settlement inside, and then bury the whole thing in trees. Any takers?

2797
 
I want to know more WC, DP, and ST names. I know we're evidently, like, proto-celtic folks, and the northers seem like they might be, like proto-hellenic. But what sort of linguistic shenanigans are going on with our other neighbors?

We're more of a not!semitic people, like the lowlanders. We have a lot of influence though from the nomads who are from a different cultural family.

(The Dead Priests are the Assyrian analogue but I'm not who the others are)

The Nomads as a whole are the not!proto-indo-europeans.
 
I think that we can all agree that our long term goal for the Dead Priests is to drive them from their city, set up our own settlement inside, and then bury the whole thing in trees. Any takers?

2797
Ehh the whole walls covered in skulls is so last millennia. We'd probably have to burn and salt the whole thing and then invent soap and industrial strength bleach specifically so we can drown the area in it. Then once we do that we'd burn it again. Who knows how many pathogensdemons and parasites it harbors.
 
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I think that we can all agree that our long term goal for the Dead Priests is to drive them from their city, set up our own settlement inside, and then bury the whole thing in trees. Any takers?

2797
I'd be up for dismantling the wall first in some way. Maybe give the skulls a proper burial. It's quite clear the Dead Priests are servants of demons and it would take a forest to purify it.

Ehh the whole walls covered in skulls is so last millennia. We'd probably have to burn and salt the whole thing and then invent soap and industrial strength bleach specifically so we can drown the area in it. Then once we do that we'd burn it again. Who knows how many pathogensdemons and parasites it harbors.
...YOU WANT TO SALT THE EARTH??!?!

HEATHEN!
 
I'd be up for dismantling the wall first in some way. Maybe give the skulls a proper burial. It's quite clear the Dead Priests are servants of demons and it would take a forest to purify it.


...YOU WANT TO SALT THE EARTH??!?!

HEATHEN!
Salt is an anathema to spirits of all kinds, demonic, terrestrial, or celestial. But since demonic spirits are pure evil caused by turning other spirits awry while terrestrial spirits are formed and reformed through the natural interconnections of the land, a temporary dissolution of terrestrial spirits is worth the ending of demonic ones.
 
R.e. terrain, what evidence do you have for that? The site of the southern coastal settlement is hilly, but we have no reason to expect it to be "very rocky with waterfalls." The only two places that are very hilly with waterfalls are places that a river runs through.
One of the earlier updates. Downriver of Lower Valleyhome is impassable hills and cataracts, which is why we go through the badlands rather than just going downriver.
Admittedly, I'm not actually sure whether the settlement's site "below the cataracts" is still in the badlands or not. I'd assumed that it was - and that the lowland settlement is thus on the small section of the lowland terrain that's below the mountain sigil and to the west of the river, and thus a straight shot from the southern coastal settlement site - but if it's not it's likely that there would be rocky terrain with waterfalls.
Regardless, this still means that the material from the coastal settlement has to go up the river, up the canal, down another river, and then down the cataract and rocky terrain with waterfalls. This is overall a larger distance and a path more likely to run into waterfalls, as it would be traveling parallel rather than perpendicular to the river.
Below the Cataracts is in the lowland proper, just past the impassable hill terrain. The badlands are semi-arid desert, which is why they're 'bad' in that you need to bring your own food to cross, while the ground itself isn't hard to travel across, which is why they're the favored route to get to the STs.

Here, I'll throw a map:
Ah, it's just that you'd said they did -or at least I'd read it as such- immediately after the post describing gelded slaves.

I agree that you don't waste quality slaves by infection, but there's probably a fair number of slaves who aren't quality. And even if the generative organs are a theoretically potent sacrifice, they probably don't bother to process that many slaves unless it's been made a requirement for ownership.

As an aside: If it's been made a requirement for ownership we could maybe extend that to the temple proper owning all slaves, because the slaves are all sacrifices to the gods. One could also sacrifice things like vanity (slashes across the face), the ability to run (rings through the feet running around the achilles tendon, linked by rope), the ability to "talk" by puncturing rings between their lips and tying them together, etc. (Rings can be metal, stone, bone, or a very hard and well polished wood.) These could be in addition to or in place of sacrificing the generative ability. Possibly, only one form of sacrifice is required. This would perhaps result in a distribution of sacrifice type among the different classes. Because all of these types have a risk of infection, limiting medical knowledge means that the caring for these types of infections would to some degree further bind the populace to the priesthood.
No declarative on the proportions, but we know the following:
-The Western Confederacy had found that most of the slaves they freed were 'maimed and incapable of fighting', despite these slaves being taken from areas where most of the male population are at least part time warriors(ref. Early lowlands culture, where the Freeman caste were militia led by Warrior caste). However, most of these were field slaves, so:
--Vanity - Unlikely to be significant to combat ability. May be done regardless.
--Ears - No loss in working power. No loss to fighting power. May be done regardless
--Legs - Major reduction in working power. A hobbled slave would have to be one who doesn't need to stand or walk to work. Would definitely hurt ability to fight, but no longer valuable as a field slave.
--Arms or arm - Major reduction in working power. A slave missing an arm or hand can still do work(if much less effectively), but would no longer fight well. Unlikely(since such a slave is food-inefficient), but possible.
--Eye(single) - Minor reduction in working power. Major reduction in fighting ability with loss of stereoscopic vision. Probable.
--Genitals - Minor reduction in working power. Moderate reduction in fighting ability.

Hmm...actually put in that light, the geldings are probably a "fuck you" tactic devised after we hit them with the Western Confederacy to free their slaves. It's strategically a way to make sure that the Western Confederacy gains as little as possible from freeing them, while costing the DPs little.

So you would have the following categories of slaves:
-War-slaves/Crime-slaves - Taken in raids or demoted to slavery as punishments, they get maimed in as dramatic a way as possible to break their spirit and to maximize intimidation, and then assigned to settlements as far away from their homeland as possible(this was a roman strategy used for slave management, as they're less able to revolt when transported to foreign lands). They're considered expendable.

-Tribute-slaves - Sent to the Dead Priests in tribute by their subordinate states. They're likely kept as slaves near their home regions as a show of power, and also the carrot to the stick. Makes tribute states more willing to send their kin over to be enslaved than to resist and be enslaved AND maimed.

-Bred-slaves - Recall the lowland culture thing where a warrior caste's children on a slave caste are counted as the same caste as their parent only if acknowledged, but otherwise Freemen? This might have changed to default to making the children of slaves, slaves, especially given the PoV switch which made a clear distinction between wives and pleasure slaves. These would probably be the house slaves, those you can actually trust to keep in the house because they grew up in your culture, or possibly literally your bastards.
 
He's been notified several times already. Please don't push.
The funny thing is I wasn't really meaning to push in the first place. SV decided to post the tally so I thought why not. So I'm not planning to push in the future.


Salt is an anathema to spirits of all kinds, demonic, terrestrial, or celestial. But since demonic spirits are pure evil caused by turning other spirits awry while terrestrial spirits are formed and reformed through the natural interconnections of the land, a temporary dissolution of terrestrial spirits is worth the ending of demonic ones.
Hmm too bad we aren't doing WC or ST quest. If we did we might of actually been able to gather enough salt to bury the DP's in it to purify them. Let the Salt flow!
 
The funny thing is I wasn't really meaning to push in the first place. SV decided to post the tally so I thought why not. So I'm not planning to push in the future.
Very well then. I was unaware if you tagged him before or after you edited. @username normally tags them and people have been doing it several times already. Better to be safe than sorry.
Where does our canal fit on the local map?
It starts north of Valleyhome, in those mountains to grab some altitude before drifting to the Snake River

:ninja:
 
It goes between Upper Valleyhome and Redshore. It isn't quite direct, but for all purposes, that is the route.


Also, just saw the 8 pages of discussion and 1k word posts. What did I miss?
Nothing of value.

People arguing about what to do 3 turns from now. How best to expand into the Lowlands etc.

Nothing that hasn't been argued before.

Also Hubris and some neat Negaverse Omakes
 
Guys, what if we take over the northern steppes? If we did that, it would put us right next door to the metal miners...with all their gold, silver, and copper (yum).

This might be the best time, if our flank succeeds.
 
@pbluekan Here, so you don't have to look for them. I'm sure you saw Citino's so I won't link that one.


Negaverse Omake: The Storm Arrives

I herd u leik negaverse, so I decided to do what I do best; shamelessly plagiarize popular material (and lampshade it twice)!

A Clapping of Thunder: Negaverse Nomads

How had it come to this? was the thought that Wendtikwos was left with, as he lay bleeding upon the earth, his axe stolen, his dying eldest son callously dumped into the rushing river behind him by his own brother, and his clan-mates echoing his own agonized moans and cries before the spirits silenced them forever.

Everything had been going so well, at first. The Ymrri had given Wendtikwos all he'd desired, and when he offered a favor in return, they offered more. They had even rained lavishness and feasts upon the clans as they passed through the hills. The Death Shamans were as fierce as the Ymrri said they would be, but even their ferocity and gruesome armor of bone was no match for the speed of the chariots. There were even other, lesser foes to wet one's appetite on, when the Death Shamans were out in force. And all around the low plains were fatted farmers and pastures to claim the bounty of, like a garden of delights.

But then the Death Shamans had prepared well for one of the raids, and in Wendtikwos' haste to get the women and children safely away, he didn't realize that the escape trail he'd chosen crossed one of the seasonal flood rivers, didn't get the scout's warning in time that the Spirit Talkers, the same who'd spurned his gracious request, had overtaken the alternate seasonal routes.

The clan was surrounded. It was only common sense that the weaker clanmates be ferried across first, leaving the warriors for last. The battle happened before barely half of the women and children had had a chance to cross. It was a travesty. The Thunder clan's warriors fought with all the ferocity of cornered bulls, with the savage desire for freedom of the unyoked horse, but like the bull, they leaped upon the spearpoint, like the horse, they were broken in.

The strongest sons had died in defense of their wives and children. The weaker had crossed over to guard the womenfolk who'd crossed first. The Thunder clan would fade in the memories of the clans... Wendtikwos' legacy stolen and spat upon.

After contemplating the events that led to his impending death, Wendtikwos had to wonder if the Hill Devils hadn't planned for this inglorious end.

The Star Axe has been stolen! Horde Unity will be greatly reduced at the end of the turn unless it is recovered. Potential thieves are the Spirit Talkers or Dead Priests.

Wendtikwos' contributions to the Horde's Government allow you to attempt to extend your Horde Period by an additional turn by selecting an heir to back. Voting is done by riot, where the ratio of votes affects the chance that a given choice wins the roll. No choice can be reduced to having no chance of success, and no choice can be increased to having guaranteed success.

[] Atekiwos, the youngest son and inheritor of the Gilded Chariot, will increase his legitimacy by raiding the western farmers (Raids western farmers, highest chance of succession, will not break compact with Ymrri)
[] Neiwos, the deliberating son, will seek to meet with the Death Shamans to bargain for the Star Axe (Bargains with the Dead Priests, may break compact with Ymrri to regain the axe)
[] Arekwyn, the impulsive son, will charge into the lands of the Spirit Talkers to liberate the Star Axe (Invades the Spirit Talkers, will not break compact with Ymrri)
[] The Thunder Clan has fallen, the Clans will return to the way things were once more
@Academia Nut Will you be putting Omakes on the front page again?
 
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