More than the Forhuch the group that has the closest ties to us (while still being distinctly different) are the Storm People. Speaking of which, @Academia Nut, while I imagine the "People" half still share cultural roots with us how has the "Storm Tribes" half affected them?
Might as well figure out the resource flows while I think about the strategic stuff AN dropped.
[MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded) (S: -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, -1 Wealth, +2 Martial, +1 Culture, many more Blackbirds, additional effects) (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -5 Wealth, +2 Martial, +1 Culture, +1 Light Cavalry)
[Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission) (-2 Wealth, -1 Econ, additional effects depending on target, +1 Diplo, +1-3 Diplo end of turn, +0-2 Wealth end of turn)
[PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs) (+12 Econ, -4 Tech)
*yawns and stretches*
That was fun. I also can't remember if the stuff in () pays out next update. *shrug* In the case it does we get +8 to +12 Wealth.
Someone should probably check the math but what I got is that in the main turn next update we end up with:
General
Diplomacy 26/27 (+1 to 3)
-Intrigue 3 [+0]
Economy 27/27 [+5-0]
-Sustainable Forests 30{37}/34
-Econ Expansion 6 [+0-5]
Martial 11 {??/39} (Banners auto unhook to prevent overrun by WoAN, some value in temp martial less than 39)
-Light Cavalry 4
Naval 1
Wealth 11 (+0 to 2)[+3]
+3 Salt&Gold
+3/2 = 1.5 Strategic
+3/2 = 1.5 Luxury
+3 Markets
-0 Units
-6 Maintenance
Total: +3
Trade Excitement is "This was so effective that we retroactively generated additional wealth during the construction of the Grand Bazaar", which means that you achieved the Guild anti-panic goal before midturn, while Spreading It Around means that the increased trade was of benefit to the subordinates, who each got their own little cut of activity/bribes.
1. Without Mass Levy if you get into a fight on their home territory it will be hard. Without all the Banner Companies, cracking their home territory will be impossible. As it is, while they can probably be kicked out of the lowlands with considerable effort if they start attacking the Harmurri, you will almost certainly need to go all in if you want to actually dig them out of their home territory
2. Away from their homes it will be of considerable use, but in their homes territory it will be far less useful
3. All three together can probably hold off any one of your significant neighbours. If the Forhuch, Storm People, and Freehills all decided all at once that they despised you, you would probably be overrun, unless you already had your levies up, in which case you might squeak out a stalemate and status quo ante bellum
Good and great, respectively. The Harmurri have realized that they can use the People as an umbrella - so long as they don't do anything stupid they are fairly well protected from invasion - and so they can focus on internal affairs and trade.
This is assuming no heroes on either side. Like, if the current Forhuch King went "Fuck it" and got his subordinates to agree with him and Freehills and the Storm People also go all in, the War Chief expects to write-off everything outside the dense core territories.
Their capital is heavily fortified and populous, although they were never really let in to get a better look. They figure that they would need a company on each gate to have a hope of being able to siege their way inside, and the Highlanders may have enough internal food and water supplies to make a siege a truly protracted affair.
So this basically confirms what they have been doing. Like, in our future war planning we should be following this war chief's advice and planning for it to be a hard fight if a fight is needed. However, this is the Iron Age and Iron Age info transfer is shit. So our war chief is certainly operating on outdated info which may swing this either way. We may get an easier fight, or it may be harder. In either case better to prepare for it to be hard, since if it turns out the fight is harder than expected that means we have a smaller "gap" to make up than if we went in thinking it easy.
To successfully reach and siege the capital sounds like we need to throw most of our own war missions and all three banners at them to have a hope of getting there to try and take it, and to have a chance of taking it. With Mass Levy though this becomes much easier and moves the fight out of the "hard" category, though this is a little uncertain since we have never actually used it.
The second thing about cavalry is about expected. The HK are basically going Full Xenophobic Dwarf. You need the Big Stick to dig them out. Or a lot more cavalry than we have, or will have in the next century or so unless that gov upgrade does wonders for the hypothetical Expand Holy Orders action.
Number three is concerning, but not surprising, especially since they are all high up Moderate Powers and nearing Great Power status soon. But its interesting to note that its everything but the super dense core, which makes sense. Not to mention if we were that threatened we would start kicking the shit out of things and using Mass Levy. Banners would probably be obliterated, 'cept maybe the Blood Rains since they seem to have "Why won't it die!?" as a skill
Might as well figure out the resource flows while I think about the strategic stuff AN dropped.
[MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded) (S: -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, -1 Wealth, +2 Martial, +1 Culture, many more Blackbirds, additional effects) (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -5 Wealth, +2 Martial, +1 Culture, +1 Light Cavalry)
[Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission) (-2 Wealth, -1 Econ, additional effects depending on target, +1 Diplo, +1-3 Diplo end of turn, +0-2 Wealth end of turn)
[PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs) (+12 Econ, -4 Tech)
*yawns and stretches*
That was fun. I also can't remember if the stuff in () pays out next update. *shrug* In the case it does we get +8 to +12 Wealth.
Someone should probably check the math but what I got is that in the main turn next update we end up with:
General
Diplomacy 26/27 (+1 to 3)
-Intrigue 3 [+0]
Economy 27/27 [+5-0]
-Sustainable Forests 30{37}/34
-Econ Expansion 6 [+0-5]
Martial 11 {??/39} (Banners auto unhook to prevent overrun by WoAN, some value in temp martial less than 39)
-Light Cavalry 4
Naval 1
Wealth 11 (+0 to 2)[+3]
+3 Salt&Gold
+3/2 = 1.5 Strategic
+3/2 = 1.5 Luxury
+3 Markets
-0 Units
-6 Maintenance
Total: +3
Organizational
Centralization 5
Hierarchy 7
Religious Authority 7 {9}
Hmmmm....
So this basically confirms what they have been doing. Like, in our future war planning we should be following this war chief's advice and planning for it to be a hard fight if a fight is needed. However, this is the Iron Age and Iron Age info transfer is shit. So our war chief is certainly operating on outdated info which may swing this either way. We may get an easier fight, or it may be harder. In either case better to prepare for it to be hard, since if it turns out the fight is harder than expected that means we have a smaller "gap" to make up than if we went in thinking it easy.
To successfully reach and siege the capital sounds like we need to throw most of our own war missions and all three banners at them to have a hope of getting there to try and take it, and to have a chance of taking it. With Mass Levy though this becomes much easier and moves the fight out of the "hard" category, though this is a little uncertain since we have never actually used it.
The second thing about cavalry is about expected. The HK are basically going Full Xenophobic Dwarf. You need the Big Stick to dig them out. Or a lot more cavalry than we have, or will have in the next century or so unless that gov upgrade does wonders for the hypothetical Expand Holy Orders action.
Number three is concerning, but not surprising, especially since they are all high up Moderate Powers and nearing Great Power status soon. But its interesting to note that its everything but the super dense core, which makes sense. Not to mention if we were that threatened we would start kicking the shit out of things and using Mass Levy. Banners would probably be obliterated, 'cept maybe the Blood Rains since they seem to have "Why won't it die!?" as a skill
This reminds me. @Academia Nut, do any of our various minions have Legacies or interesting Traits? Can we PiA steal something off of Txolla? Do we know what Legacies/Traits our neighbors have?
@Citino Maybe limiting scope of response cus on phone & relying on memory despite u being an easy scroll up.
I think the pros of subordinating HK are that we can actually fight their whole "resist external influence" thing, have some grasp on their culture in a wider sense and the range of actions they can take, & have ~1/2 of the lowland's sides covered by reliable allies (ourselves & associates).
This reminds me. @Academia Nut, do any of our various minions have Legacies or interesting Traits? Can we PiA steal something off of Txolla? Do we know what Legacies/Traits our neighbors have?
The HK have traits which are basically copies of ours or are outright incompatible.
The Harmurri a couple centuries ago had a trade value of some form.
The Forhuch have the old Nomad Hero Generator Trait, which we knew has existed in some form ever since the beginning of the game.
The Storm People have Cosmopolitan Tolerance, a down and side grade of PiA as well as possibly still having Pioneering Spirit.
The Khem have God King.
The Freehills has Division of Powers, which we currently hold as well.
We cannot steal legacies with PiA as it is not listed, plus it wouldn't really make sense for PiA to be able to considering how legacies work, though it is interesting to figure out what they may have.
The Forhuch may have gotten a Civ Destroyer Legacy of some form from the Pure they absorbed/conquered.
The Harmurri probably have some trade legacies of some form. Maybe. The Trelli may have nicked those and no one has gained them yet.
AN comment outside of a post, I think. There may have also been a bit of info in an update itself in the listing of the countries we could grab a trait from.
Can't remember which one it was sadly. It was a really long time ago.
@Citino Maybe limiting scope of response cus on phone & relying on memory despite u being an easy scroll up.
I think the pros of subordinating HK are that we can actually fight their whole "resist external influence" thing, have some grasp on their culture in a wider sense and the range of actions they can take, & have ~1/2 of the lowland's sides covered by reliable allies (ourselves & associates).
Yeah, it would be nice if we could do it, but the effort needed is the problem. We already have multiple other places we need to pacify and integrate before we do the same to the HK. We still need to eat Txolla, find a way to keep the west colonies in line and fortify against nomad attacks. Trying to manage the HK during all of that would be incredibly difficult.
Better to just take what is neccessary, build up our power further and worry about it later.
Though honestly, the best case scenario is our diplomacy working here. If we can get them to go pro-peace, we can keep working on the integration issues.
Their capital is heavily fortified and populous, although they were never really let in to get a better look. They figure that they would need a company on each gate to have a hope of being able to siege their way inside, and the Highlanders may have enough internal food and water supplies to make a siege a truly protracted affair.
Yeah, it would be nice if we could do it, but the effort needed is the problem. We already have multiple other places we need to pacify and integrate before we do the same to the HK. We still need to eat Txolla, find a way to keep the west colonies in line and fortify against nomad attacks. Trying to manage the HK during all of that would be incredibly difficult.
Better to just take what is neccessary, build up our power further and worry about it later.
Though honestly, the best case scenario is our diplomacy working here. If we can get them to go pro-peace, we can keep working on the integration issues.
Even if diplomacy fails here, we can still beat them hard enough they go for peace and are set back for their hills. Especially since by this point the Harmurri will likely becoming up from the one side and Freehills from the other. That is less effort than vassalizing them, which is what it seems like you want to do? If not then nevermind!
Ohh. I was just informed that I messed up a little on my calcs for Econ and Wealth.
Our Econ overflow to Wealth is refunded and so we have 10 Expansion [+0-5].
Also, I completely forgot our Vampiric Childe, so we lose two Econ from the overflow and thus only have 9(+0 to 2) Wealth and 11 Expansion.
Even if diplomacy fails here, we can still beat them hard enough they go for peace and are set back for their hills. Especially since by this point the Harmurri will likely becoming up from the one side and Freehills from the other. That is less effort than vassalizing them, which is what it seems like you want to do? If not then nevermind!
I don't want to vassalize them. I want to steal their border territory that they spent so much time fortifying, take control of the passes they hold and such, so that we can easily repel any of their attacks.
I don't want to vassalize them. I want to steal their border territory that they spent so much time fortifying, take control of the passes they hold and such, so that we can easily repel any of their attacks.
I, however, do want to vassalize them. Kind of. The idea of vassalizing them, not the effort.
I'm fine taking the mountain passes and just sort of choking them down so the Khem attack them from the rear to get back their colonies and the Harmurri punch their stomachs.
I don't want to vassalize them. I want to steal their border territory that they spent so much time fortifying, take control of the passes they hold and such, so that we can easily repel any of their attacks.
I, however, do want to vassalize them. Kind of. The idea of vassalizing them, not the effort.
I'm fine taking the mountain passes and just sort of choking them down so the Khem attack them from the rear to get back their colonies and the Harmurri punch their stomachs.
Even if diplomacy fails here, we can still beat them hard enough they go for peace and are set back for their hills. Especially since by this point the Harmurri will likely becoming up from the one side and Freehills from the other. That is less effort than vassalizing them, which is what it seems like you want to do? If not then nevermind!
Ohh. I was just informed that I messed up a little on my calcs for Econ and Wealth.
Our Econ overflow to Wealth is refunded and so we have 10 Expansion [+0-5].
Also, I completely forgot our Vampiric Childe, so we lose two Econ from the overflow and thus only have 9(+0 to 2) Wealth and 11 Expansion.
The HK have traits which are basically copies of ours or are outright incompatible.
The Harmurri a couple centuries ago had a trade value of some form.
The Forhuch have the old Nomad Hero Generator Trait, which we knew has existed in some form ever since the beginning of the game.
The Storm People have Cosmopolitan Tolerance, a down and side grade of PiA as well as possibly still having Pioneering Spirit.
The Khem have God King.
The Freehills has Division of Powers, which we currently hold as well.
We cannot steal legacies with PiA as it is not listed, plus it wouldn't really make sense for PiA to be able to considering how legacies work, though it is interesting to figure out what they may have.
The Forhuch may have gotten a Civ Destroyer Legacy of some form from the Pure they absorbed/conquered.
The Harmurri probably have some trade legacies of some form. Maybe. The Trelli may have nicked those and no one has gained them yet.
Question was specifically about our minions. Which is an interesting question.
@Academia Nut what values do Heaven's Hawk currently have? What about the rest of our subordinates? Can we steal any of their values? Do we know a way to do cultural exchange with them so we might be able to incorporate any of their values?
Would be a can of worms if those refugees are from the HK instead of Swamp People, turns out having fanatic in government ruins a lot of connections and stabilizing functions. The hilarious factor will go through the roof however.
Would be a can of worms if those refugees are from the HK instead of Swamp People, turns out having fanatic in government ruins a lot of connections and stabilizing functions. The hilarious factor will go through the roof however.
