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Paths of Civilization

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ctulhuslp said:
1. We cannot do March+Raise Army within same turn after Warships because it may mean touching 0 Martial in the process, so if you want both March and Warships you pretty much have to vote 'More Scouts'. I think it concerns you , @bluefur87 .
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That's a very good point, thanks!

*Sees the current argument going on.*

Oh boy. The age old debate of whether or not one should tolerate the intolerant. On the one hand, tolerating another's beliefs is something to be lauded and greatly supported, on the other, tolerating too much will lead to a poison in our nation.

I was going to jump on Sivantic's idea of showing tolerance because the opposition is doing a very poor job at opposing. Then I started thinking about it myself. I think this comes down to the problem of 'absolute tolerance' and 'absolute purity' both being actually bad things. Now the question is, how much of a measured response should we do?

Anyways @veekie , one of the few things I trust you on is bouncing an idea of how values will evolve off of me. Like, I might stand a good chance of disagreeing with what you say, and perhaps even disagreeing with what route we should take, but I'd like to think that we've managed to keep a good eye on how traits evolve. Please ping me when you do your review of this. My first run through is:
  • Expel One God Followers: We say that to be Ymaryn is to be pure, the trait will favor nationalism and stability at the sacrifice of xenophobia. Good on paper, shit for diplomacy.
  • Ignore the situation: We will get some internal strife as people start to take matters into their own hands... I'm not actually sure what will happen here as the Puritans are causing problems for others, but we might get another branch of religion from it? It would be the one most likely to start causing civil unrest, so I think this is the last one we can afford to take.
  • Crack down on the puritans: One is to be made pure if they are not. Perhaps some advancement to purity obtained through actions and anyone, even a sinner can reach it. Can't think of what this would look like.
  • Attempt to tear out these maniacs: Purity are those who exist in harmony with the state and those who go against the state must be stopped. I'm not sure what would happen here.
While this feels right, I'm also weary because the more expensive options often end up being the better ones, and the last one is by far the most expensive option. I do know, however, that you do your analysis of these things much more accurately when working with someone, and as much of the thread is currently shouting... yeah. Again, please ping me with your response to this.

I also make a habit of not voting before stats are out. Period.

So I'll probably just come back in the morning. If anyone wants to bring something to my attention in a calm, reasonable manner, feel free to ping me.
 
[X] [MP] Royal Investment (+1-2 Free Progress to Dam Project)
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
VoidZero said:
The culprits, their students, their families, and their extended families; probably closer to a few towns actually. Fear of punishment stops people more often than rule of law i think.



We don't know which is which until we have tried it at least once.;)



Who said i want measured response? I have legitimate excuse to kill the (relatively) few fanatic population to rein in the rest, and it's an opportunity to use it.



See above, you might have failed your reading roll.:p
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0.o. Are you really advocating we kill every man, woman, and child associated with a particular religion in our society?
 
Susano said:
Proportional justice was our very damn first social trait!
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Yes and now we also have majority sacrificing the few as downside with greater justice.

DragonParadox said:
You are arguing that extreme retribution will increase the authority of the government while the action itself explicitly causes a dip in legitimacy.
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I believe authority =/= legitimacy, since if legitimacy is authority than we would have a lot less people deviating from our rule. Like the governors fudging warrior death reports, second son crisis, and now Puritans doing their own lynching. So everyone need a reminder of government presence in seeing people getting executed, otherwise they will think they are free to do whatever.
 
Katsuragi said:
0.o. Are you really advocating we kill every man, woman, and child associated with a particular religion in our society?
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The ones that went and murdered other people for reasons, not targeting religion but acts of individual and punish the entire family. Do read my post and not jump to conclusion.
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
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VoidZero said:
Yes and now we also have majority sacrificing the few as downside with greater justice.
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But what you went on about is exactly what established this trait line! The arguments you use are the very same used against the daughter of the historical Crow. And we decided to hell with that, we'll do Justice and none of this hard man bullshit, and that is how we got the Justice trait line!
 
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
I lean towards this because I think it might degrade purity, but it might be that it does quite the opposite so since I don't have time to study or debate it I won't fill in the vote yet.
[X] [Ext] Stay home, farm (Main Expand Econ)
Might be better to trade mission the Highlanders? I'd really rather not go to war.
[] [React]
??? I'll pick this when we have definitive (or, more honestly, easy to look up) stats since I don't know if we can afford to spend Wealth.
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)
Get those sweet, sweet study rolls.
 
Susano said:
But what you went on about is exactly what established this trait line! The arguments you use are the very same used against the daughter of the historical Crow. And we decided to hell with that, we'll do Justice and none of this hard man bullshit, and that is how we got the Justice trait line!
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What hard man bullshit? I probably voted against punishment against crow daughter had i been there but now i changed my mind as the religious problem grew bigger each subsequent time. What we did was talk, reconcile, and ignore; but still it grew worse, what's left except this?
 
VoidZero said:
What hard man bullshit? I probably voted against punishment against crow daughter had i been there but now i changed my mind as the religious problem grew bigger each subsequent time. What we did was talk, reconcile, and ignore; but still it grew worse, what's left except this?
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How exactly did it grow ever bigger? This isn't the first assault on our religious order, and yet we have maintained peace and a limited form of religious tolerance. Yes, there has been unrest, but it's not like we're in a state of perpetual religious war or anything. Basically, your "solution" is ten times worse than the actual problem!
 
George said:
[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
I lean towards this because I think it might degrade purity, but it might be that it does quite the opposite so since I don't have time to study or debate it I won't fill in the vote yet.
[X] [Ext] Stay home, farm (Main Expand Econ)
Might be better to trade mission the Highlanders? I'd really rather not go to war.
[] [React]
??? I'll pick this when we have definitive (or, more honestly, easy to look up) stats since I don't know if we can afford to spend Wealth.
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)
Get those sweet, sweet study rolls.
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We are at Wealth 14. We can afford to spend Wealth only if we take +Wealth choice in MP reward or take Wealth PSN....but the latter eats into Econ, of which we do not have too much.
Although if Ext reaction is Expand Econ, it'll work, that's true. But PSN Forests does not mesh.
 
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
 
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Stop: No you logic!
  • Staff Post
    • Andres110 said:
    You logic is the same kind of crap logic and reasoning veekie used to justify ignoring the monotheists.


    Did you ignore what I wrote not just a single page earlier? I even bolded and underlined it.
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    no you logic! Calling logic crap is something you can do, that's well within the borders of our rules, but specifically calling logic bad through association with another poster while adamantly refusing to actually come up with any proof for a long line of positive claims, even when requested to, is bad faith debating and uncivil. I choose to infract you under rule 4.

    Have a good day.

    loserthree said:
    I think maybe you are a Russian bot farm agitator aiming to undermine the Progressive Glory of the People.

    We need not tolerate the intolerant in order to be tolerant.

    You're just wrong. This is the kind of argument that leaves Nazis unpunched.
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    this is the kind of argument that leaves users infracted Creating a strawman out of your opposition while frequently toeing the line with regards to acceptable on the subject of purges is generally not a good idea; take a warning for marginal behaviour under Rule 2 and 4 and a three-day threadban, but nothing more.



    rip out the shitposter root and branch @VoidZero, you are toeing the line on the acceptable level of advocacy, and had a purge not explicitly been one of the voting options, I would have infracted you without hestitation. In this case, I give you a warning for marginal behaviour for toeing the line of Rule 2.
     
  • Staff Post
    • Wooh, we're back!

    [X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
    [X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
    [X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
    [X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
    [X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)

    Also, when did we get concrete? Was that what we got in the last update?
    Academia Nut said:
    Concrete
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    [X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
    [X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
    [X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
    [X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)

    Citino said:
    Also, when did we get concrete?
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    last turn
    E: for starting the dam + tech roll
     
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    [X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
    [X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
    [X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
    [X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
    [X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
     
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