Its vastly easier if you had iron samples however. The first challenge is identifying the ore, which having iron samples help with due to magnetism and rusting. The second is a kiln that can endure the temperatures needed, which iron samples don't help with.

The first statement just isn't true, or at least there's no reason to believe that it is. Meteroic iron objects were around for several thousand years before iron smelting, and had absolutely no discernable impact on its invention.

Iron smelting and trade of the resulting iron objects co-existed with bronze in the same reason for nearly two thousand years before it was widely copied.

As an extreme example, in our history Egypt literally never had iron smelting until the modern period. It was limited to reworking imported iron objects for basically its entire history. That's even though they were, in relative terms, right next door.

You can learn iron working from iron samples. You can't learn smelting.

Yeah, we're far more receptive to that bribe. We'd certainly have pushed for Light Cavalry 3 or 4 in a hurry to get a commensurate reward to the megaproject, though. And, really, the anti-industrial people just had a resounding victory, winning all 5 passive policy slots, so there's very little to complain about.

It's much more anti-urbanism than anti-industrial. What underinvesting in Infrastructure does is much more about making the cities hellish cesspits, and strengthening rural factions because the cities are so obviously appalling, and the resulting plagues and general unhealthiness will be associated with moral failings. As it happens, we have an organised religion that will compound that.

Urbanism does not imply industry. You can have rural cottage industries, which is what a policy of under-investing in the cities will produce. That in turn will cause its own serious problems.
 
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Yeah, we're far more receptive to that bribe. We'd certainly have pushed for Light Cavalry 3 or 4 in a hurry to get a commensurate reward to the megaproject, though. And, really, the anti-industrial people just had a resounding victory, winning all 5 passive policy slots, so there's very little to complain about.

Yeah, I am more relaxed.

And it's not anti-industrial as much as "let's hold our horses, we have time". I don't mind "hail technology", I mind ability to deal with consequences.
 
Yeah, I am more relaxed.

And it's not anti-industrial as much as "let's hold our horses, we have time". I don't mind "hail technology", I mind ability to deal with consequences.
I'm just somewhat skeptical of the extent to which we could have prepared for e.g. Block Housing unlocking level 2 cities by going slower.
 
Level 2 Cities seem so much more superior to Level 1 Cities anyway.

Our ability to support them is.. we need to build up rural infrastructure, most notably ROADS.
 
Level 2 Cities seem so much more superior to Level 1 Cities anyway.

Our ability to support them is.. we need to build up rural infrastructure, most notably ROADS.
Level 2 cities are kickass in every way really. The problem is they're kind of fragile to the flow of trade(since they rely on food shipped in) and the sheer population density will do a bunch of stuff that will give us headaches.

The signs of another impending governmental and economic reform are appearing.
 
Level 2 cities are kickass in every way really. The problem is they're kind of fragile to the flow of trade(since they rely on food shipped in) and the sheer population density will do a bunch of stuff that will give us headaches.

The signs of another impending governmental and economic reform are appearing.
Yeaaah the big ones are the looming liquidity crisis pushing banking and tax reform(Tax the Third yay!) and the province limit.
 
Yeah, seems like we've got another Reformation coming up. Honestly I think the biggest problem is our stat caps are too low. We go from almost starving (we spent down to 1 econ last turn) to capped in a single turn.

In retrospect, I think I made a mistake in pushing for the land reforms. They've been very useful and will continue to provide dividends for the foreseeable future, but it had significant costs. 10 EE is surprisingly expensive, especially since we're making our forests with the LTE negative Forest passives rather than the LTE positive Forest actions. The Stability cost ended the Golden Age due to the simultaneous plague, and the extra provinces didn't add many actions (we've got two more actions once we get one more province)
 
Level 2 cities are kickass in every way really. The problem is they're kind of fragile to the flow of trade(since they rely on food shipped in) and the sheer population density will do a bunch of stuff that will give us headaches.

The signs of another impending governmental and economic reform are appearing.
We have algebra this time though. :V
 
Yeah, seems like we've got another Reformation coming up. Honestly I think the biggest problem is our stat caps are too low. We go from almost starving (we spent down to 1 econ last turn) to capped in a single turn.

In retrospect, I think I made a mistake in pushing for the land reforms. They've been very useful and will continue to provide dividends for the foreseeable future, but it had significant costs. 10 EE is surprisingly expensive, especially since we're making our forests with the LTE negative Forest passives rather than the LTE positive Forest actions. The Stability cost ended the Golden Age due to the simultaneous plague, and the extra provinces didn't add many actions (we've got two more actions once we get one more province)

This is just me being salty, but:
LTE & Innovation positive Forest actions
 
Then we're well behind. Primitive banking (taking deposits and issuing loans) is recorded in the 3rd millennium BC.

*nod*
And there is no "Banking" in tech list.

That's why we are not considering ourselves classical age civ, but iron age one: our development is pretty skewed. We have decent levels of material tech and governmental administration, but are lagging behind in other areas.

Hence reluctance to grow bigger: for our level of development (*sometimes* ~500 BC equivalent, but very spottily so, often lagging significantly behind that) we are big enough.

Which makes comparisons with 0BC China or Cyrus' empire or Imperial Rome quite invalid.

Honestly I don't think we have the tech to do that without facing counterfeiting sufficient to collapse the system.

That was snark abosut first tax crisis and us trying to implement communal land+progressive taxation+land value tax literaly before inventing math....or at least before even earliest algebra.
 
That was snark abosut first tax crisis and us trying to implement communal land+progressive taxation+land value tax literaly before inventing math....or at least before even earliest algebra.
Yeah, given that event I assumed it was just speculation on what we might do haha
That would actually be an area where our communal property has hurt innovation.

I'm fairly sure the Trelli would have the idea of loans before us by simple necessity, even if they were behind on the invention of currency.
Communal property ought to have its own advantages for fiat currency, though. Or at least for gold-backed notes. Why would you need the physical gold when you're just transferring control of a state-owned resource?
 
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That would actually be an area where our communal property has hurt innovation.

I'm fairly sure the Trelli would have the idea of loans before us by simple necessity, even if they were behind on the invention of currency.
They did actually from what I recall AN discussing a long while back.
 
nod*
And there is no "Banking" in tech list.

That's why we are not considering ourselves classical age civ, but iron age one: our development is pretty skewed. We have decent levels of material tech and governmental administration, but are lagging behind in other areas.

I'd argue the opposite, that we're more like a small late classical civilisation with some specific weaknesses, but also some specific advantages.

Assuming that not Europe is approximately the right shape, consider this biome map:



It should still hold even if we're shifted south, due to the seas. If we can forest the area to the west of the not Dnieper, the nomads will have a hard job ever taking it again.

Consider that the temperature forest region is all going to be be primordial forest at that point. Yes, there's a region of steppe to our north, but the region the Western Ymaryn should be expanding into is perfect for our style of combat and absolutely appalling for horse nomads.

This, however, is something we need to do soon, before the indiscriminate felling of the forests starts. Waiting for iron tools to spread everywhere is therefore not a good idea.

Hence reluctance to grow bigger: for our level of development (*sometimes* ~500 BC equivalent, but very spottily so, often lagging significantly behind that) we are big enough.

Which makes comparisons with 0BC China or Cyrus' empire or Imperial Rome quite invalid.

And often massively ahead. We have something like late nineteenth century AD Europe levels of fertilisers and tenth century AD China levels of material science

We also need the drivers to invent these technologies. Deliberately retarding our development will retard it in all areas. There's no natural force that causes growth above the Malthusian limit to happen. We need to seize advantage of those times we do have a surplus to invest in higher order activities that need specialists. If we don't have a social need for something if it's even invented it will at best be a toy, if not ignored completely.
 
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This, however, is something we need to do soon, before the indiscriminate felling of the forests starts. Waiting for iron tools to spread everywhere is therefore not a good idea.

The cat's already out of the bag on iron, and has been for some time (I think I saw it estimated at ~300 years upthread?) - hopefully the WY will maintain at least some fraction of our respect for nature, and if we're really lucky Mylathadysm will act as a force for environmental conservation (though it looks likely to be a side benefit at best), but "claim the territory before anyone can deforest it" isn't on the cards. We're in no position to try for it right now, between our military preoccupation with the pirates and our already near-crippling administrative woes, and by the time it's remotely viable (if ever - I'm personally in the "we could just stop expanding right now for the foreseeable future" camp) there will already have been plenty of time for the forests to begin falling.
 
Megaprojext:
The rose has thorns:
A great network of Watchtowers, forts and garrisons cover the land while swarms of soldiers patrol every road, forest and mountain making it far harder for anything to sneak into the land unseen, be they simple bandits or an invading army.
Requirements:
75% watchtower coverage.
75% road coverage
Cost:
per province
Pro:
Drastic decrease in bandit and raider activity.
Big bonus on first battle in a province, small bonus for following battle.
Con:
Has an upkeep of 1 wealth / 6 outer provinces(provinces that border on something that is not another province).
Fully settling a province has extra costs.
 
I'd argue the opposite, that we're more like a small late classical civilisation with some specific weaknesses, but also some specific advantages.

That's....our financial system is in its infancy - we do not even have any source of organized loan/debt systems. And finances matter. Although marketplaces will provide impetus for those most likely.
We've only recently acquired idea of "taxing subordinates", which is just hilarious and speaks a lot about how shit we are at managing subordinates - we did not even have idea of "get some tribute" somehow. That's, like, not even 3000 BC.
Our roads are still on "gravel" stage, which is niice, but not really good enough and will get less and less enough as time goes on.
We still do not have flat barges and are trading even bulk goods via not-entirely-bulk-goods-suited ships, it seems.

That's a part of bigger point by the way: unlike Rome or Egypt we lack silly amounts of sea to use for connection. Our major arteries are going to be Lowland rivers and we are not using them because we lack the Dam, which means we are way way worse interconnected than any of major empires - maybe with the exception of Persia, but it did, in total, last ~1/10 of our lifespan at most so they are not exactly a role model.

It should still hold even if we're shifted south, due to the seas. If we can forest the area to the west of the not Dnieper, the nomads will have a hard job ever taking it again.

Consider that the temperature forest region is all going to be be primordial forest at that point. Yes, there's a region of steppe to our north, but the region the Western Ymaryn should be expanding into is perfect for our style of combat and absolutely appalling for horse nomads.

This, however, is something we need to do soon, before the indiscriminate felling of the forests starts. Waiting for iron tools to spread everywhere is therefore not a good idea.

Ehhhhh. Spreading forests take time. And it requires, you know, spreading forests and not conquering lands, setting ourselves on fire via overextension, then nodding sagely and saying "be cool if it was forested".
I am first to argue for more forests, but if we are not even foresting what steppe we have, taking more is just silly.

And indiscriminate felling...first, cat is out of the bag already; second, those lands are most likely pretty sparsely inhabited. So I am not too worried about those forests being wiped out any time soon.

And often massively ahead. We have something like late nineteenth century AD Europe levels of fertilisers and tenth century AD China levels of material science

We also need the drivers to invent these technologies. Deliberately retarding our development will retard it in all areas. There's no natural force that causes growth above the Malthusian limit to happen. We need to seize advantage of those times we do have a surplus to invest in higher order activities that need specialists. If we don't have a social need for something if it's even invented it will at best be a toy, if not ignored completely.

This was justification for Tax Crisis 1, and it almost killed us.
There is, of course, the need to stimulate society, but there is the difference between stimulus and suicidal charge into physically unwinnable crisis.
It's not like we are stagnating - we have a hilarious amounts of innovations going on, enough that we barely keep up with them as society (whether we are even keeping up is the big question).

We have 7 (or 8?) cities with > 100 000 population.
In our core.
Let's be generous and assume core has 4,000,000 people. It still means 700,000-800,000 people live in cities. It still means almost 1/4 of population is urban. In iron or classical age it is absolutely insane and we lack societal structures which are normally developed slower and smoother with waaaaaay more gradual urbanization.

Like, Roman Empire - one of most urbanized civilizations of its time - had, like, 10-20% urbanization circa 0 BC. We are more urbanized than Rome ever was millenia earlier than Rome. Without Roman legal system and tradition and way more gradual urbanization.

And also. "100 000 people" is a low end estimation of True City population; our capital and Redshore are most likely waaay more populous.
Like.
The cumulative urban population for the empire is estimated at just above 10%, in peninsular Italy at between 15% and 20%, comparable to urbanization levels in 1800.[51][52]

Our urban population is 20% or so already, likely higher. Without millenia of institutional experience or anything to handle it.

We do not need any more fucking stimulus.
 
Oookay, I did not give it much thought previously, but 20-30% of our core being urban population is fucking nuts; so maybe I just screwed up numbers?
@Academia Nut ,
1. What is core Ymaryn population?
2. What is Ymaryn urban population?

(3. How fucked we are?)
We have census and with Panem and Myranyn reform should have a decent idea of urban/rural populations.
 
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