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Paths of Civilization

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Raichu1972 said:
If we roll bad and make stupid choices (something we're prone to doing) there's a chance of the Ymaryn adopting slavery to replace/supplement the half exile system.
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Ah, so in what context was this being discussed?


[][Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
Or.
[][Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)
Or both?
 
DocMatoi said:
My first vote was actually for four infrastructure passives, because I know we need it. This idea that more infrastructure is somehow bad bewilders me.
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I'd just like to note that 4 Infrastructures would total us to +13 progress/turn, in which case we actually might start running out of projects to build in another 8 or so turns. This is a legitimate issue if we go that deep.

At 7 progress/turn turn it's pretty much guaranteed that we'll be getting new projects well before we finish clearing out our backlog.
 
Wow, I leave for a couple hours, an update drops and holy shit so much information to process.

A couple questions/observations before I vote

1. Will the tech cost of the new City Support policy get refunded?

2. Holy shit, the Mass Levy is amazing

3. Can we still spend stability to kick war missions?
 
Abby Normal said:
Actually, we could also take proclaim glory as a secondary next turn if we can fit it in. I dont know if we can, but if we can, then with our new max legitimacy of 4 thanks to the urban poor power, we can either go to stab 4/legit 4 if we dont take a stab hit, or keep at stab 3 (but with legit 4 as a bonus) and thus get a golden age.
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True, I didn't consider that. Getting our Legitimacy maxed is attractive in its own right too.
 
Glassware said:
{M} Gold Mine
{S} Invite to Games [Whoever we haven't invited yet, HK maybe]
{S} Proclaim Glory
{S} Integrate Colony - Gulvalley
{S} Support Faction - Patricians
{G} Ironworks
{G} Kilns

How about something like this? -12 econ total, but we can afford that, I think? The Games action can be replaced with whatever.
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We can afford it, but this means we don't get any military forces at all. Maybe change the Games to a secondary raise army?


Or, uh, we could just not build the Kiln.
{M} Raise Army
{S} Invite to Games [Whoever we haven't invited yet, HK maybe]
{S} Proclaim Glory
{S} Integrate Colony - Gulvalley
{S} Support Faction - Patricians
{G} Ironworks
{G} Gold Mine
 
Okay, folks, but what about forestry though?

Or can we pull of manual secondary expand forestry every turn?

notgreat said:
Just wondering, do people actually believe that we'd break if we did another Infrastructure Policy? Like, I'm betting that if we don't do any infrastructure next turn it'll be done for us via FC passives or province actions. Using our ultra-efficient passives to do something that we're already doing anyway would be a rather good idea, no?


Above-mentioned narrative, and also that we're going to be overflowing into Wealth next turn anyway.
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Not immediately, no. But we need to get our foot away from gas pedal so that we can keep up with changes.

Yes, it is intentional slowdown. That's the point.

DocMatoi said:
My first vote was actually for four infrastructure passives, because I know we need it. This idea that more infrastructure is somehow bad bewilders me.
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Look at discussion before this update.

Basically, point is: due to at the very least fuel costs we need to either pair each Infra policy with dedicated forestry policy or spend out own actions to keep up witg changes.

Case in point for "that is not all": second aqueduct we were forced to build after Ironworks. Because Infrastructure building can and do have side effects which force us into certain decisions.
 
BungieONI said:
Ah, so in what context was this being discussed?


[][Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
Or.
[][Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)
Or both?
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The half-exile practice review. Note that it requires bad choices AND bad rolls for that to happen. Also, veekie's argument predicates on the idea that our free labour in the form of corvee labour will stop being free if we make them do half-exile work.
 
DocMatoi said:
My first vote was actually for four infrastructure passives, because I know we need it. This idea that more infrastructure is somehow bad bewilders me.
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AN explicitly warned us that we were deriding passive policies as being inefficient. If all we do is infrastructure passives, we're myopically focusing on one part while neglecting all the other aspects of statecraft.
 
PrimalShadow said:
We can afford it, but this means we don't get any military forces at all. Maybe change the Games to a secondary raise army?


Or, uh, we could just not build the Kiln.
{M} Raise Army
{S} Invite to Games [Whoever we haven't invited yet, HK maybe]
{S} Proclaim Glory
{S} Integrate Colony - Gulvalley
{S} Support Faction - Patricians
{G} Ironworks
{G} Gold Mine
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Didn't you oh so loudly claim we can totes dedicate manual Kilns or Forests every turn?

And *this* is why I did not believe you.
 
Sivantic said:
We roll crit fails on how to fix [Art] problem.

We now have slavery.

:V
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They are Indentured Servant or Foreign worker that is completely ok. :V They are only paying for their lodging, food, and medicine like every other person. Not slavery in any way at all i'm sure.

BungieONI said:
Ah, so in what context was this being discussed?


[][Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
Or.
[][Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)
Or both?
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Both, mostly on the benefit of the latter.
 
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 4727 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 118179-118418]
##### NetTally 1.9.9
Task: Art
[23][Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[15][Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)
[1][Art] Do charcoalers and the like really need to be experts? (Efficient Charcoal Kilns become cheaper, no longer considered Guild actions, ???)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Policy
[26][Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[26][Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[24][Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[23][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[16][Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[7][Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[6][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x1
[6][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x2
[4][Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[4][Policy] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
[3][Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x2
[3][Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x1
[3][Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn) x2
[2][Policy] Armament (+1 Martial/turn)
[2][Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn)
[2][Policy] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn) x2
[2][Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn) x1
[2][Policy] Expansion (So long as there is land to expand into, +1 Econ Expansion/turn, reduces threshold to produce new provinces the longer active)
[2][Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn) x2
[2][Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo) x2
[1][Policy] Armament (+1 Martial/turn) x2
[1][Policy] Armament (+1 Martial/turn) x3
[1][Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
[1][Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x3
[1][Policy] Industry (+1 Tech/turn)
[1][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x3
[1][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x4
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: HK
[29][HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[26][HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
[5][HK] Offer to send military aid
-[4][HK] Gold only
-[3][HK] Offensive Policy
-[2][HK] Mass Levy
Total No. of Voters: 42

Okay we are slowly working our way back to just skulllduggery.
 
[X] [Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)

I think this is the first time we have had the option to tackle this issue since the beginning of it. If we ignore it now who knows when we will get another chance.
We have the stability to tackle it, and with mass levy we have a huge military to call on in emergencies. If we end this we will probably be able to tackle the sanitation issues within a reasonable timeframe, if we ignore this chance to take up the half-exile issue it might be five hundred years until we get the chance again.
 
As I read the update I kept on thinking 'Oh, my.' in George Takei's voice at various points. Mass Levy is insane if we have high wealth and econ. Tthe Highlander's of all people contacting us is rarer than the Doom Comet, shame it was to bitch to us about their own people coming up with militant monotheism. Interesting that they appear to have Crow as their premier God, perhaps they really are a more rigid version of what we used to be. We also have the choice of addressing the Half-Exile problem in some way, which would be great if we weren't on the verge of so many potential crises. So tempted anyway...

I think the update was also trying to tell us we need to get our martial and navy score back up. Since we're a bit low. No idea how we'll find the wealth for that since we need more Spiritbonded. I get the feeling we might be pressing the Mass Levy button sooner than we'll like.

[X] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[X] [Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[X] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
 
HeWhoAdds said:
3. Can we still spend stability to kick war missions?
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He hasn't said other wise and PSN hasn't changed and that's the source of it so I say yes.

Which means we can in theory punch someone with like 10 {31} Martial on Horde Mode(Mass Levy) twice in quick succession.

DO YOU LIKE DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG!?
 
Academia Nut said:
Not good enough in Administration, unfortunately.

I forgot the effect all the new cities would have on your admin :confused:
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Hey now, we should still be at yellow cent. You had us exactly at our red/overcentralized limit when you thought we had 2 more cities than we started the turn with. We now have that many cities, but we also have 2 less centralization, so we should be in yellow cent still.
 
[X][Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[X][Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X][Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X][Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)

Sad, for lack of Diplomacy but Intrigue is still pretty nice. Switching it out so Forestry passes.
 
Abby Normal said:
Hey now, we should still be at yellow cent. You had us exactly at our red/overcentralized limit when you thought we had 2 more cities than we started the turn with. We now have that many cities, but we also have 2 less centralization, so we should be in yellow cent still.
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Refugees supplied 1 more city. It wasn't as bad as I initially thought, but you are now at Red Cent.
 
veekie said:
the losses incurred for fully dropping the practice
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Hold the fuckin phone mate, who's saying anything about fully dropping the practice?

veekie said:
You go try responding to every post on mobile.
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I do

SpeckofStardust said:
In addition to that, what will we do to criminals now that we cant use them for production?
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...nobody is saying we can't use them for production? Like, we'd keep making the criminals do the really unpleasant jobs, we'd just take extra care to ensure they really were criminals and not just political rivals or social outcasts.

Janadus said:
But why? We have plenty of Diplo.
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Because we've had the HK as enemies/uneasy truce for hella long and really that's just silly. We finally have a chance to get our relationship with them back on good footing, meaning more trade opportunities and another Games participant.

VoidZero said:
Horoscope and astro predictions. No i'm not kidding.
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Why would you be kidding? You seem to be implying those are bad reasons to do things, when in fact they've historically been very good guides to what we should do. Like it or not, astrology seems to actually work in this setting. Also, see above - there are totally solid secular reasons to reach out to a longtime neighbor and try to improve relations.
 
Something that I've noticed as a super good combo is that once we get the level 2 ironworks, our Econ passive gives 3 Econ a turn.

Econ overflows into wealth.

Mass levy is based on our Econ and wealth stats, and we can't expand Econ while under mass levy.

If we put 2 or 3 actions on agriculture and go on mass levy we can basically spam war missions while not having to worry about taking martial raising actions, since we would basically have a constant 21 martial to beat people up with.

Even better, we don't have to worry about going over martial through veterancy once the war is over, since the martial is only there so long as the policy is active.

This combo is actually pretty insane.
 
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