It doesn't matter if Trelli is more valuable than the Thunder Twin, we still get dinged with Lord Loyalty if we have to keep up the balancing act.

Which is why I propose integrating Gullvalley to get rid of another subordinate we have to care about.
Integrating Gullvalley yeah sure. Once we shut down Second Sons we could digest their stat points.
Question, putting aside the moral arguments and ethnic cleansing, do you think Freehills can hold Trelli?

And if they can't why do you think we can? (Honest curiosity I want to know your reasons)
Freehills:
-Smaller, weaker actions compared to ours. Consider the scale, they should be at 1 Old Main, 2 Old Secondaries. Which is to say they have only 1 Main by our standards. Our Mercenary Company has more Martial than they do.
-No Navy. They don't even have grand docks to build warships with. They'd be reliant upon integrating Trell rapidly to use Trell
-Historical feud. Freehills was founded by the people in the world who hate the Trelli the most. Our warriors spent nearly as much time stopping them from lynching the Trelli civilians during the past war as actually fighting the Trelli.
-Geographically nearer, so its easier to get people in place.
-Government model uses direct democracy, which is a model of government that scales up poorly at Iron Age tech level.

Ymaryn:
-Stronger actions. Reminder that we didn't even put much effort into smooshing pirates. We sent a secondary war mission and forced the Pirate Hero to retreat.
-Has a Navy at all. This being an advanced stat, it's quite significant.
-Historical knowledge and options for dealing with vassals. We have the options to Support and Influence subordinates directly, of which the latter was obtained through a decision chain to give our subordinates lots of shit to flip them.
-Geographically further away, though administratively not that far away by Catamaran.

I believe that Freehills can hold Trell, but would be forced to do it the brutal way if they wanted to keep it.
Pirates were previously looting from both Trelli and the People and doing fine there; not sure what would change if both sides were controlled by the same gov't.

A common pirate operating method is to raid and loot from one party, then turn around and trade with the other. When they raid Trelli shipping they sell to Ymaryn traders, and when they raid Ymaryn traders they sell to the Trelli. Selling Trelli loot to the Trelli or Ymaryn loot to the Ymaryn is not sustainable before someone catches on.
This is needed because pirates need docks to repair their ships as well. Ships are maintenance drama queens, and relying on boarding operations to capture enough ships to keep your fleet going is difficult.

This is why large pirate groups usually wind up founding their own ports...which isn't an option if the Ymaryn hold the entire Black Sea, because it becomes very simple to hunt down such a group. They'd be forced to operate past the straits in that case.

+3 Wealth per turn is something we could get with 6 salterns, which means 3 Mains and 30 stats in total. Two influence mains and one war main cost 3 Mains and 36 stats in total. If we are thinking about taking the straits and then using two influence mains, we could and should just stay home and build salterns instead.

(Note: It is true that we can't currently build 6 salterns; only 2 are available. However, the fact of the matter is that there are a number of actions we have indicated are more valuable than salterns to us, so by transitivity grabbing those instead of income would in fact be strictly better anyways.)
Yes, Salterns are very nice.

The raw wealth income however is secondary to Mediterranean access. For as long as we don't hold Trell our traders will persist in making us get access, which is pressure for war, or hideous fees or canal megaprojects etc to bypass, most of which you already oppose.

It also means Tinriver can launch Sailing and Trade missions again, since they can now reach Khemetri.
As for the Disrupted Trade status, that ends if the Freehills control Trell just as well. Sure, it turns on again if Trell has problems, but I don't see why that wouldn't happen under us too.
And disrupting slavery? I think Freehills also has anti-slavery values or the like, which means them controlling Trell is again no worse than us controlling Trell.


So all in all it sounds like letting the Freehills take Trell and then using the resources freed up by not having to worry about it is more profitable than trying to control Trell ourselves. Unless you have other points to make on top of this?
If Freehills control Trell, we wind up paying them for the privilege of using the straits, we don't get the income boost and this will last for all of 3-5 turns historically before the deal breaks down.
Functionally, we don't gain 3 Wealth of income(which offsets all current costs), we take 1 Wealth of further losses, and the whole arrangement is inherently transient.

Meanwhile, Freehills doesn't like Slavery, that is true, but they don't have organized religion to transfer the values.
We don't have legal and social responsibility. The UN doesn't exist. All it means that we are morally culpable for helping the Freehill to get their revenge.

But it is a good question if our Companies are willing to disobey Freehill's order to massacre the population in Trelli.
It's a nice Catch-22. It'd be Right to do their contracted duty, but said duty is Wrong.

But what happens is they'd just do the massacre. Remember what happened after we rented the Red Banner to the HK and TS? They came back thinking it's not so bad after all.
For all the people who are talking about how taking the straits is going to make us immeasurably rich and give us at least one free megaproject - WE AREN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO KEEP IT. Our subordinates with high loyalty and with very similar culture are disobedient and outright treasonous - why you think getting another vassal who'll rebel within a few turns when our current ones are already threatening civil war is a good idea is beyond me, but if you're just focused on how great Trelli would be to own, STOP CHASING THE DAMN SHINIES! No matter how great it'd be in the long term, it won't matter if we collapse because we're dealing with rebellions and the stability drops from that instead of fixing our massive list of problems and bringing the troublesome vassals we already have to heel.
Unfounded argument. Our subordinates are not breaking away, even the two subordinates stated to be at the highest risk for breaking away.
Hey guys, remember how great listening to veekie advocate for the risky shiny option went last time?

When we ended up starving for no reason?

Any bets how it'll go this time?
Lovely ad hominen argument there.
 
We could import it from them though?
*shrug* yeah we would, it'd go mostly to us. We'd probably get income from it because Not!Bosporus, but here's another thing. When the Trelli were connecting the Not!Med to the Not!Black Sea there was a Liquidity Crisis and when they imploded and the connection cut off it went away.

What happens when the connection is fixed? I would assume the Liquidity Crisis comes back. Which means we then have another set of problems to deal with and I'd much rather not have to deal with Trelli as a Vassal Problemstm​ while dealing with that.
 
I mean if the main point of taking the Trelli to obtain a large Wealth drip, it's a non-point, given that our Guild Mercantile and various abilities generate Wealth at a pretty obscene rate already.
How exactly? Just stab hits from a Trelli vassal + Second Sons?
We'd have 3 Martial and 3 Merc Companies, most of which will be keeping the Trelli down. At this point if someone or someones invaded us, we'd be totally fucked before having the ability to respond properly.

And we lose stability if we lose land.
 
I can't speak for everyone, but after dealing with the SSC, Dam + Canal are among my top priorities, and I see a lot of sentiment in that among the other voters. After AN's latest "hint" I have high faith in our ability to get them built. So no, I don't agree with this, unless progress freezes entirely.

OK. lay out an action plan that will have us deal with the Trelli and simultaneously build our Dam+canal, and SSC.

This is of course, assuming that NOTHING happen in the next turn that will mean changing our plan altogether, like an extended war to take the Trelli.
 
Oh. That sounds like a less good idea. Infrastructure Actions often burn Econ, and we are losing econ each turn, so it would kinda force us to spend much of our actions generating Econ to pay for all that. And if we are doing that, why not stay on balanced instead and use king actions to build infrastructure?

I'm not attached to that idea too much. I think that we're soon going to be flooded in options for Infrastructure that we have never gotten around to.


I was being sarcastic.

Assuming each turn is about 15-20 years, that puts 3 turn in range of 45-60 years. The average life span of bronze-iron era is about 20-30 years. Thanks Wiki for this uncomfortable information.

I'm always amused every time that this comes up. This does not mean what you think it means.

Average life expectancy has almost no relationship with how long people generally lived. The reason that average life expectancy was so low was because half of people died by age 3 and another third died by age 15. If you made it to 15 years old, however, you were likely to make it into your sixties or seventies. Stone age hunter-gatherers often lived to be into their sixties if they made it to at least 15. The 'average' was dragged down by all of the people who died as children to disease, starvation, or violently.

People didn't actually die after 30 years, that's crazy. It would mean that the average person died while their oldest child could only be 12-15 years old.

I'm guessing the Gilded Age, actually; in which case we were previously doing worse than we thought since the Gilded Age hit had not yet been applied.

Nope.

You paid for it at the start of the turn, and unless you take some major Wealth boosting actions at the mid-turn you are likely going to drop out of your Gilded Age.

Already paid.

Forest policy is terribly inefficient. If you are considering dedicating actions to infrastructure, take an extra infrastructure policy instead and use the action you had thought to use on infrastructure to plan forests. You save a lot that way.

I don't think I'll be able to convince the thread to actually take those actions. The thread has never expressed a desire to do that in the past and I don't think they will in the future. With Charcoal Kilns, I think it's extremely unlikely people will want to Plant Forests.

Khemteri Invasion (Because we have done zilch about Khem since we screwed up relations)

Too far away. We learned after the Battle of Bloody Vale that the heartland of both of our civs was simply too far apart to make striking at each other a possibly. AN's even stated that the Khemetri are too far away to take Trelli.

Highland Kingdom invasion (Because we know like zilch about HK)

They've been degrading into a minor power for a while. They likely are not to be a military threat. They might be able to do something else undesirable, but not be a threat through force of arms.

3 Mercs is a huge concerntration of Martial. It's literally equivalent to the max Martial of our entire core and we are a huge empire. Unless we're hit by the Khemetri, no one is likely to top that.

If we're attacked by multiple people then it doesn't matter if we took Trelli; we'd be fucked anyway.

And another thing I am worried about actually is accidentally ending up in a Gilded Age. We aren't quite sure as to the trigger for a Gilded Age, I think its just maxed wealth, but if Trelli gives enough Wealth income then we may hit max wealth and a Gilded Age in three to four updates. We'll probably be out of Second Son by then but it would be a rather annoying thing to deal with while messing about with whatever we are dealing with in three updates.

Spending Wealth is easy. Warships and Spiritbonded both take 5 Wealth per [M] action. Salt Gift spends 8. As long as we pay attention, we'll know ahead of time if overflow is an issue.

It also means Tinriver can launch Sailing and Trade missions again, since they can now reach Khemetri.

I'm tempted to convert them to a colony and set up a trade post on the other side of Trelli. Tin River the colony can start linking up with Greenshore and Trelli if we take it. Turning the south-southwest of the Black Sea into a cohesive Ymaryn blob is likely better for stability and administration.
 
We'd have 3 Martial and 3 Merc Companies, most of which will be keeping the Trelli down. At this point if someone or someones invaded us, we'd be totally fucked before having the ability to respond properly.

And we lose stability if we lose land.

Will they have the chance to respond to our invasion of Trelli before next turn? If the past is any indication, our provinces should boost our martial up enough that we'd be ok if someone took a swing at us.
 
Maybe one day when we build the Dam and integrate the Lowlands?
I'm pretty sure the only chance Dam-kun has to get built is to either be randomly selected by the Free Random Megaproject from Guilds, or we get into a Golden Age and set him up on a separate track.

This is post Second Son though.
 
Have to wonder if the shady dealing between the western colonies and Western Ymaryn were made more detrimental due to our swinging stability and centralization points. It was a legacy problem where corruption bud and grow when both those points are lowered and not removed with relevant actions afterward. "Hunt trouble maker" action might be important after all.
 
I'm pretty sure the only chance Dam-kun has to get built is to either be randomly selected by the Free Random Megaproject from Guilds, or we get into a Golden Age and set him up on a separate track.

This is post Second Son though.

I like to imagine that there's one Patrician family that's been advocating for the Dam for, like, 1000 years, and they all end their speeches to whatever the council is on with stuff like "And, furthermore, we should build a giant dam!", Cato the Elder style.
 
Have to wonder if the shady dealing between the western colonies and Western Ymaryn were made more detrimental due to our swinging stability and centralization points. It was a legacy problem where corruption bud and grow when both those points are lowered and not removed with relevant actions afterward. "Hunt trouble maker" action might be important after all.

It's a useful action for uncovering problems and solutions within our empire and outside our border, the problem is that we're focused on infrastructure and refuse to dedicate a policy to our intrigue score.
 
OK. lay out an action plan that will have us deal with the Trelli and simultaneously build our Dam+canal, and SSC.

This is of course, assuming that NOTHING happen in the next turn that will mean changing our plan altogether, like an extended war to take the Trelli.
No, because I was talking about the benefit of having an extra Docks, not the difficulties in holding the Straits. I am not interested in the circular discussion of whether or not taking the Straits is going to shut down all progress or not. Please attempt to rope someone else into having that argument. I'm not interested.
 
I like to imagine that there's one Patrician family that's been advocating for the Dam for, like, 1000 years, and they all end their speeches to whatever the council is on with stuff like "And, furthermore, we should build a giant dam!", Cato the Elder style.
When we finally finally build that thing I cannot wait to see what little quips AN does or doesn't slip in.

Like:

"Oh hey the king was suddenly notified that the People discovered that they had a Dam way out in the boonies. No one knows who built it, but who cares! It works!"

Lel. Kek.
 
Unfounded argument. Our subordinates are not breaking away, even the two subordinates stated to be at the highest risk for breaking away.

The Thunder Twins aren't breaking away, but we do know that the western provinces are facilitating transfer of warriors to the Western Ymaryn, as well as generally engaging in deeply dubious practices - see the most recent update. We also know that this has been going on for some time but we're only just now properly learning the details of it, which is...concerning.
 
No, because I was talking about the benefit of having an extra Docks, not the difficulties in holding the Straits. I am not interested in the circular discussion of whether or not taking the Straits is going to shut down all progress or not. Please attempt to rope someone else into having that argument. I'm not interested.
Out of curiosity, what are you interested in talking about?

The whole reason that people don't want to take Trelli is because they (rightfully so) think we won't be able to hold it for long.
Do you wish to debate the benefits of long term vs short term planning?

Do you wish to debate the actions we will give up on in order to take the straits, and the opportunities we will miss?

It seems rather pointless to debate at all if you don't want to debate the key reasons as to why we should take the straits or not.
 
No, because I was talking about the benefit of having an extra Docks, not the difficulties in holding the Straits. I am not interested in the circular discussion of whether or not taking the Straits is going to shut down all progress or not. Please attempt to rope someone else into having that argument. I'm not interested.
That latter discussion is the entire core of our decision as to whether to conquer the Trelli or not.

It seems to me that the main argument is:

Wealth from Straits vs Admin Strain from Holding Straits
@Academia Nut what would happen if we maxed out every stat?
Golden Age.
 
@Academia Nut what would happen if we maxed out every stat?
We've done that before, it gave us Golden Age Lightning round. But that is a good question, since that was during a golden age.

Wealth from Straits vs Admin Strain from Holding Straits
Speaking of Admin Strain, we are over our province limit by 2 which means our government is being strained by our core lands. And then you can add on the subordinates.

INB4 we get it from the Guild reward and the Dam ends up getting built accidentally when some miners dump too much rock debris into a river.
And then the miners look at the mess and go "That looks like ass, lets make it pretty!".

Boom, Mega-Dam.
 
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