I don't know if this has been pointed out in the 15 pages that are still ahead of me.

But....like.

We Aren't Guild Merchantile anymore?

We haven't been for like...200 years, I think?

I don't know if it matters, but folks made that mistake a while back.
 
This is true. On the other hand we have zero idea where the Cent cap is, and I in particular don't want to cross it so the value I hold EJ in is rapidly dropping as we raise Cent. There is also the fact that this takes more time to actually achieve, as I can't recall the last time we were able to do an Enforce, Expand Econ, and PSN all in the same update so it'd have to be one or the other of the EJ or Expand and then the other on the next turn which changes how things get figured out.

Now the last of the three is pretty nice and I'd go with that, but that's mid turn stuff and Shard and I are discussing main turn stuff when we can't have PSN.
First of all, we desperately need more Stability. I don't want to risk breaking.

Secondly, we've had to repeatedly skip PSN and Wildcat Prospecting opportunities due to lack of Centralization. That's just wasteful.

Sec EJ is actually +2 Cent and Main EJ is +2.5 Cent, on average; The difference is +.5 Stab/Cent.
Erm, that'd be true if it were an unbiased random number, but literally every single time we've done an EJ (which is a good number now) we've gotten the minimum Cnetralization number.

So the options are.. equal, provided 1 Stab = 2 Econ?
I'm... sorry, what? I don't understand this at all. Are you thinking that if we don't gain Stability we won't lose it? I think we'll lose the Stability either way, we'll just break if we don't have enough.

We Aren't Guild Merchantile anymore?
Umm... check the first page. We're clearly Guild Mercantile.
 
I don't know if this has been pointed out in the 15 pages that are still ahead of me.

But....like.

We Aren't Guild Merchantile anymore?

We haven't been for like...200 years, I think?

I don't know if it matters, but folks made that mistake a while back.
This is where people get that.


Guild Mercantile
The artisans supply the warriors and nobility with all the things they need to do their jobs, so the rest of the economy should be geared to supply them with what they need to produce those goods.
Extra Actions: +1 Secondary/3 provinces for manufacturing (must take min. number of actions)
Temp Econ Damage: Event + 1 - Centralization/3
Wealth Generation: Leading/2
Passive Policies: 1 + True Cities (includes Free Cities)
Special: Penalties for over-centralization doubled
Special: Low Wealth can generate Stability loss

They are speaking of how our economy runs, not our government(if that is what you are talking about. Otherwise I have no idea.)
 
E: Of course Sivantic raises a good point that we will have event chain stuff we need to do, which is going to be expensive and under cut doing the above stuff. I personally think we are going to have to finish the Urban poor quest to nail the plague to the wall so we have enough peeps, build another gym for more training grounds and raise army, or maybe double main raise army to finish it off.
That is not what I mean.

I mean the costs that are usually covered by the Yeomen buying and improving their own equipment, we are going to cover now. I mean that Myranyn Reforms will drop a huge wealth cost comparable to the Panem cost that we have to pay every turn.
 
But then again, as I've said earlier, I am waiting for AN's answer before settling on one opinion or another. If AN says that all power over new troops belongs to the state - sure, why not? But the way I see it now, it gives any sufficiently rich patrician a road to having a personal levee.

This is... tricky. Practically speaking it's mostly under the control of the state, but the patricians are the ones who run it all, so there is a bit of "It's not their stuff supporting the armies, but if they used the armies to declare it their stuff it wouldn't necessarily all fall apart." Of course, its already like that, so none of the options presented would change the situation that much in either direction.
 
What we need to be able to do is to turn off the dole policy, but I have a feeling that is going to cost us at least a stability point just to be able to do it.
It becomes considerably harder with the Myranyn reforms, too. :(


That is not what I mean.

I mean the costs that are usually covered by the Yeomen buying and improving their own equipment, we are going to cover now. I mean that Myranyn Reforms will drop a huge wealth cost comparable to the Panem cost that we have to pay every turn.
Yeah, no.

It takes us TWO wealth to maintain two Mercenary companies. It is not going to be three times more expensive than that to maintain the Urban Poor equipment.
 
That is not what I mean.

I mean the costs that are usually covered by the Yeomen buying and improving their own equipment, we are going to cover now. I mean that Myranyn Reforms will drop a huge wealth cost comparable to the Panem cost that we have to pay every turn.
Oh, after the event chain is done? Do you expect that cost to be scaling like Panem? Or do you think it is just going to be a big -6 Wealth? The first I agree with since it just makes sense, the second though just looks ridiculous, as that is basically 2/3's the wealth cap of a small country.

I'd expect something like -2 Wealth for every Urban Army, and we can raise several for less intial costs than Mercs(possibly by them not taking sub slots).
 
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I think that we are going to need to convert most of our cities to free cities if we want to be able to deal with their upkeep cost.

Each free city provides (over a city)-
+1 econ/turn
+1 centralization max
+1 culture/turn
+1 passive policy
-1 subordinate slot

The subordinate slot is the problem. We currently have 15 possible slots (down to 14 after the Subordinate Reform) and we currently have 11 subordinates. We need to be careful with the slots with have left.

[][Main] Enforce Justice
[][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[][Secondary] Enforce Justice x2
[][Secondary] Suppress Faction (Traders)
[][Secondary] Expand Economy
[][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns x2

We starve.

This plan will destroy Ymarn. We currently have Econ 5 [-6]; we basically cannot spend any Econ next turn. We have to have at least 10 before we should feel comfortable spending any. We're going to lose Stability to the Second Sons and that means Western Yamryn will vamp us for up to 4 Econ; combined with our -6 'income' we have to have at least 10 or we're going to starve.

During the mid-turn (we're not actually in it yet, apparently) we'll have to take some type of Expand Economy and Enforce Justice or {S} Proclaim Glory + {S} Restoration of Order. We may be forced to use PSN to get a [Main] Expand Econ or else we starve next turn.
 
The subordinate slot is the problem. We currently have 15 possible slots (down to 14 after the Subordinate Reform) and we currently have 11 subordinates. We need to be careful with the slots with have left.

It's highly likely, however, that establishing a third Free City will get us a legacy because there is nobody as urbanized as us, except maybe the Khemetri, so the first hit is free (ish).
 
Question for those of you that actually understand the mechanics to see if my train of thought is correct.

Stability hits from PiA don't trigger the econ soak from the western Ymaryn. The max refugee option costs -2 Stability, -8 EE, 8 Temporary Econ damage, +9-11 Econ next turn.

With the Charity, Centralization and Storehouse, I think the Temp Econ damage is reduced to -2.

Given past events, the max refugee soak has the possibility of causing territories to defect.

Could we grab Trell like that without resorting to war?
 
Question for those of you that actually understand the mechanics to see if my train of thought is correct.

Stability hits from PiA don't trigger the econ soak from the western Ymaryn. The max refugee option costs -2 Stability, -8 EE, 8 Temporary Econ damage, +9-11 Econ next turn.

With the Charity, Centralization and Storehouse, I think the Temp Econ damage is reduced to -2.

Given past events, the max refugee soak has the possibility of causing territories to defect.

Could we grab Trell like that without resorting to war?

The answer to that is a resounding "wait and see." It's possible we could, it's also possible they're shortly being conquered by pirates and we don't get that option, or they're just too far away.
 
It becomes considerably harder with the Myranyn reforms, too. :(



Yeah, no.

It takes us TWO wealth to maintain two Mercenary companies. It is not going to be three times more expensive than that to maintain the Urban Poor equipment.
That is because two mercenary companies are only 200 people. We are talking about arming several thousands.
 
Question for those of you that actually understand the mechanics to see if my train of thought is correct.

Stability hits from PiA don't trigger the econ soak from the western Ymaryn. The max refugee option costs -2 Stability, -8 EE, 8 Temporary Econ damage, +9-11 Econ next turn.

With the Charity, Centralization and Storehouse, I think the Temp Econ damage is reduced to -2.

Given past events, the max refugee soak has the possibility of causing territories to defect.

Could we grab Trell like that without resorting to war?
Some Trelli territory? Maybe. The city itself? Probably not, it's a pretty big city.
 
It's highly likely, however, that establishing a third Free City will get us a legacy because there is nobody as urbanized as us, except maybe the Khemetri, so the first hit is free (ish).

I know, I'm just concerned. I have a feeling we'll somehow end up with Trell as a subordinate and the Western Yarmyn will have to be brought to heel eventually. If we surround Free Hill, they might eventually be absorbed into us. The H and M event chains will likely require a double Main Raise Army in order to finish off their event chain...

We may very soon have a lot less flexibility in subordinate slots than you might expect.

Question for those of you that actually understand the mechanics to see if my train of thought is correct.

Stability hits from PiA don't trigger the econ soak from the western Ymaryn. The max refugee option costs -2 Stability, -8 EE, 8 Temporary Econ damage, +9-11 Econ next turn.

With the Charity, Centralization and Storehouse, I think the Temp Econ damage is reduced to -2.

Given past events, the max refugee soak has the possibility of causing territories to defect.

Could we grab Trell like that without resorting to war?

Potentially, but it would be risky.

Thinking about it... it's not a terrible idea, however. We're looking at -6 Econ from income and getting +9-11 from refugees would cancel that out. We won't have the Western Ymaryn vamp us for this so it actually ends up giving us more of a buffer against our Econ starvation problems than if we didn't do it.

We will need to take something stability raising at mid-turn if we do this, though.

That is because two mercenary companies are only 200 people. We are talking about arming several thousands.

Where does it say that? Were the size of the Banner Companies ever specified?
 
Oh, after the event chain is done? Do you expect that cost to be scaling like Panem? Or do you think it is just going to be a big -6 Wealth? The first I agree with since it just makes sense, the second though just looks ridiculous, as that is basically 2/3's the wealth cap of a small country.
A military complex is super expensive I do not understand why you would think otherwise.
 
The subordinate slot is the problem. We currently have 15 possible slots (down to 14 after the Subordinate Reform) and we currently have 11 subordinates. We need to be careful with the slots with have left.
13 Subordinates, the 11 number doesn't include our two Merc companies. We're at 13/15, going to 13/14. A third city would almost certainly boost that to 14/15 though since that legacy is almost certainly still available.

On a side note the Merc legacy is likely open again now that the Trelli have lost it. Might be useful at some point.

Could we grab Trell like that without resorting to war?
We'll have to see. It seems plausible, but putting ourselves down to -3 Stability is just asking to die to any number of random possible problems.
 
I know, I'm just concerned. I have a feeling we'll somehow end up with Trell as a subordinate and the Western Yarmyn will have to be brought to heel eventually. If we surround Free Hill, they might eventually be absorbed into us. The H and M event chains will likely require a double Main Raise Army in order to finish off their event chain...

We may very soon have a lot less flexibility in subordinate slots than you might expect.



Potentially, but it would be risky.

Thinking about it... it's not a terrible idea, however. We're looking at -6 Econ from income and getting +9-11 from refugees would cancel that out. We won't have the Western Ymaryn vamp us for this so it actually ends up giving us more of a buffer against our Econ starvation problems than if we didn't do it.

We will need to take something stability raising at mid-turn if we do this, though.



Where does it say that? Were the size of the Banner Companies ever specified?
Yep give me a sec.
 
That is because two mercenary companies are only 200 people. We are talking about arming several thousands.
There is no way that our mercenaries are only 200 men. 200 men wouldn't even be noticeable on a tactical scale in our larger battles, much less the strategic scale we operate on.

Like, when there's a battle of 150,000 plus men, even if those 100 men are all utter badasses, at best they can probably kill 2000 men. And that would mean they are killing 20 per warrior, which is utterly bonkers.

The companies have to number in the thousands for them to have been as effective as they are.
 
We starve.

This plan will destroy Ymarn. We currently have Econ 5 [-6]; we basically cannot spend any Econ next turn. We have to have at least 10 before we should feel comfortable spending any. We're going to lose Stability to the Second Sons and that means Western Yamryn will vamp us for up to 4 Econ; combined with our -6 'income' we have to have at least 10 or we're going to starve.

During the mid-turn (we're not actually in it yet, apparently) we'll have to take some type of Expand Economy and Enforce Justice or {S} Proclaim Glory + {S} Restoration of Order. We may be forced to use PSN to get a [Main] Expand Econ or else we starve next turn.
I was operating under the assumptions that we would be doing Main Expand Econ PSN next update and have 13 [-6] in the main turn and that we will be doing Main Econ PSN for most of the foreseeable future till we get out of Second Son. Best I double check what you are talking about.

Now with the assumption that we have 13 [-6] Econ in the next main turn before "income" which hits in the start of the mid turn we spend:

+4 Econ Expand, -4 Econ Kilns, -5 Culture -1 Stability -2 Econ, -3 Martial -1 Stability -2 Econ, -6 Panem and city = -14 Econ.

Huh. Interesting. Swap one of the Kilns for a Support Artisans Or Art Patronage then and we will be at 0 Econ instead. Thanks for making me check that. The bigger problem is that I see a wealth shortage incoming very very quickly, which causes its own stability hit if we go lower than 5 or so and that's another 2 Econ down the drain.

*sits here thinking about it for a while*

Wealth will be 16 [+3] in the next mid turn assuming we don't spend any of it next update, so that leads to 11 [+3] in the main turn afterwards. Pretty much a turn of buffer. Now how do we get more wealth... Hmmm...
Passive Trade Policy is +1 so two of our passives for +2, we'll be getting more soon, will handle that expenditure so that we can keep doing Art Patronages and Support Artisans till we start to overflow Tech or Culture.
Porcelain works might be worth it, have to think about that one.

So Porcelain is pretty much it for things which in combination with Support Artisan or Art Patronage don't cost more than -4 Econ which is the cap I set while looking around for guild actions. And Porcelain actually offsets 2 of the Wealth cost meaning we could in theory handle the -5 Wealth expenditure from Support or Patronage for much much longer.


Well that was enlightening. Thanks Redium that was actually really helpful.
 
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That is because two mercenary companies are only 200 people. We are talking about arming several thousands.
Remember that the Red Banner single-handedly beat the Thunder Horse and got the Thunder Speakers their freedom.
Remember that the Red Banner, with Phygriff, cut a swathe through the Lowlands and Sacked Xohyr with only a little backup from lowlands minors.
Remember that the Red Banner held the line in Gulvalley against the Khemetri while Yeyena was cleaning house against our neighbors.

200 men, no matter how badass or well armed, could not pull of any of those feats by themselves.
 
Remember that the Red Banner single-handedly beat the Thunder Horse and got the Thunder Speakers their freedom.
Remember that the Red Banner, with Phygriff, cut a swathe through the Lowlands and Sacked Xohyr with only a little backup from lowlands minors.
Remember that the Red Banner held the line in Gulvalley against the Khemetri while Yeyena was cleaning house against our neighbors.

200 men, no matter how badass or well armed, could not pull of any of those feats by themselves.

You forgot Make the Punching Stop, where the Red banner took the Swamp Folk, Thunder Horse, and I think Highlanders at the same time and beat them silly.
 
so what's up
who voted for what

Current winning vote:

[] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[] [PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
Adhoc vote count started by Stealthy on Oct 7, 2017 at 1:24 PM, finished with 112759 posts and 92 votes.
 
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