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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [Reform] Ignore Both
We are not reforming when were in a fucking resource spiral of death.
[X] [PiA] Harmurri (Something trade related maybe [Not Center of Trade related])
We need income, I don't care if the thread hates what gives us income, I wish to avoid a fucking collapse.

[] [GA] Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth)
[] [GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)
Either one of these would work, but
[x] [GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)
We need money.
[X] [Iron] Gain an additional Social Value slot
We built our culture too tall and we need to widen the base of it now.

Also, I don't care if we lose blackbirds.
I don't care if we don't free slaves.
I don't care if were morally bankrupted or not.
What I care about is getting this situation under control. If we lose something, I rather it be military then say anything else we have.
 
The romans got away with it because their entire culture was military focused. We're not, our urban poor are not the cream of the crop. As I understand it, Macedon got its armies from the countryside, and basically rolled over everything. Macedonian officers were famous, that's what I want to emulate.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
Also, I don't care if we lose blackbirds.
I don't care if we don't free slaves.
I don't care if were morally bankrupted or not.
What I care about is getting this situation under control. If we lose something, I rather it be military then say anything else we have.
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Sincere question: if you don't care about any of those things, why do you care if we crash and burn? What's the purpose of maintaining a morally bankrupt civilization with none of its defining characteristics, instead of just picking up with a successor state and trying to do better?
 
ExNihilo said:
The romans got away with it because their entire culture was military focused. We're not, our urban poor are not the cream of the crop. As I understand it, Macedon got its armies from the countryside, and basically rolled over everything. Macedonian officers were famous, that's what I want to emulate.
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Were in the middle of a collapse, what part of,
Academia Nut said:
AN: Yes, the Western Ymaryn have PiA, and yes, they drained Econ from you (after you had already recovered due to timing, or you would have imploded).
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this do people not understand?
We and standing on the edge of death, and aiming for SHINY will collapse everything you fools care about.
Also our second sons Crises?
Will likely let them drain eco every turn from us anyway.
 
If we don't reform, stuff just gets worse. I'd prefer m-whatever reform to none, but we don't have the military tradition to make a full urban poor army.
 
VoidZero said:
With Yeoman completely removed from the military, the faction balance will be irreversibly tilled towards Partisans and Priests; due to them holding all the sharp objects.
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Even if I felt this was as potentially dangerous as you say, this does not change the fact that the current situation is not working. Arming the Yeomanry is completely destabilizing society and nearly killed us.

The state (and thus Patricians) may hold the crossbows, but they cannot use them without the urban poor. Who are the urban poor? Refugees, unskilled labour and Yeoman Second Sons. Myranyn still provides a path for military advancement for the Yeoman without ceding the state's ability to control its people.
 
Wiadi said:
Sincere question: if you don't care about any of those things, why do you care if we crash and burn? What's the purpose of maintaining a morally bankrupt civilization with none of its defining characteristics, instead of just picking up with a successor state and trying to do better?
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:V
While our nation may change the player base doesn't. I rather think the fact that you think any successful state isn't morally bankrupt is sad.
 
Wiadi said:
Sincere question: if you don't care about any of those things, why do you care if we crash and burn? What's the purpose of maintaining a morally bankrupt civilization with none of its defining characteristics, instead of just picking up with a successor state and trying to do better?
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That wasn't the choice we are looking at so i'm leaning towards trying everything to keep the government alive.

This means:
  • Admin tech
  • Steel tools (Steel blood)
  • Not arming the poor and let Patricians/Priests be paymaster/leader
Edit:
8bitBob said:
Even if I felt this was as potentially dangerous as you say, this does not change the fact that the current situation is not working. Arming the Yeomanry is completely destabilizing society and nearly killed us.

The state (and thus Patricians) may hold the crossbows, but they cannot use them without the urban poor. Who are the urban poor? Refugees, unskilled labour and Yeoman Second Sons. Myranyn still provides a path for military advancement for the Yeoman without ceding the state's ability to control its people.
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What happens when the various paymasters and leaders within Patricians disagree with one another? They start rallying the Urban Poor to their individual sides and we have a running start civil war.
 
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VoidZero said:
That wasn't the choice we are looking at so i'm leaning towards trying everything to keep the government alive.
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This survival.
Wiadi said:
Sincere question: if you don't care about any of those things, why do you care if we crash and burn? What's the purpose of maintaining a morally bankrupt civilization with none of its defining characteristics, instead of just picking up with a successor state and trying to do better?
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I don't care if we end up as white knighting superheros, I rather not commit national suicide to do so.
I will aim for survival until I don't have to aim for it.
 
VoidZero said:
What happens when the various paymasters and leaders within Patricians disagree with one another? They start rallying the Urban Poor to their individual sides and we have a running start civil war.
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While our government is largely run by Patricians, they are not interchangeable when discussing it. The Patricians are a faction for a reason. I see no reason why we cannot take steps to mitigate this by keeping the power in the hands of the state, and thus the players.

But, again, potential problems with the change do not change the fact that the current system does not work. There's no speculation here. We are in a crisis for a reason and we need to address it.
 
VoidZero said:
What happens when the various paymasters and leaders within Patricians disagree with one another? They start rallying the Urban Poor to their individual sides and we have a running start civil war.
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If the ruling class of a nation has a go at one another, you have a civil war. The structure of the military doesn't really matter for that. The Urban poor, the Yeomanry or the Ruling elites themselves would all just be as divided.
 
ExNihilo said:
city-dwellers tend to make worse soldiers than yeomen due to types of activities.
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Not exactly true, from what I understand.

Yeoman are a great force because they are a source of readily recruitable somewhat skilled fighters. They especially prove their worth when you have tech that requires significant training, like, say, the english longbow. You can't just give a guy a longbow, train him for a few months, and have a good archer. I believe the famous phrase was 'To train a longbowman, start with the grandfather'. And when most weapons need quite a bit of skill to use well, and having said skill makes you able to fight multiple unskilled foes quite easily, then Yeomen are quite an excellent resource.

However, what the reform with the urban poor is suggesting is that we use weapons that have a low bar in terms of needed skill and train our guys in it. Most nations would never be able to afford this idea, as the cost would be ruinous for almost anyone else, but with our metalworks, we can actually afford to give pretty complex weapons away to our lowest soldiers.

Not to mention that city born soldiers have a massive advantage over rural ones.

They don't get sick in large groups as much.

Like, that's huge for an army at this time period, when most of an army's casualties usually come from disease rather than fighting. City born soldiers grew up in an environment rich in disease, and if they manage to survive, they tend to have immunities to a lot of the more common illnesses that rural recruits wouldn't.
 
[X] [GA] Begin Great Dam megaproject in independent action track (-10 Wealth)
 
SpeckofStardust said:
While our nation may change the player base doesn't. I rather think the fact that you think any successful state isn't morally bankrupt is sad.
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What I think is sad is your lack of ambition. We have a benefit that no nation in the history of the world has had - a continuous guiding hand with the capability, if not the inclination, to make plans spanning millennia. A guiding hand with, in theory, no selfish motivations to prevent it from crafting the most ideal society it can. Is it woefully optimistic to think that the playerbase will use this power wisely, given the conflicting agendas at play and general imperfections of a direct democracy? Yes, but that doesn't make it wrong to advocate for such a use, in hopes of working what positive change may be worked.

Now, if you just don't want to try and craft an ideal society, that's another issue altogether and gets back at my original question (i.e. "what do you want instead") - but thinking that we just can't and therefore shouldn't even try seems like an awfully pessimistic approach to a game that's supposed to be fun.

VoidZero said:
That wasn't the choice we are looking at so i'm leaning towards trying everything to keep the government alive.

This means:
  • Admin tech
  • Steel tools (Steel blood)
  • Not arming the poor and let Patricians/Priests be paymaster/leader
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Which is a reasonable and understandable approach. My response wasn't to everyone advocating against the reforms, just to the specific sentiments Speck was expressing in the post I quoted.
 
LuciDreamer said:
...Goddammit, now I have an image if this head of Ymaryn-chan and Western Ymaryn-chan being part of some poor hapless sod's harem anime as vampire twins or something.

"Khem-kuuuuun, you love ME more, right?"

"No no no, he loves ME more! Right, Khem-kun?"

"Ha....help... dying..."

"Stop struggling Khem~"

"...please..."

I'm horrible.
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Noooooooooooow you're getting into it!

Muda muda muda Muda muda muda Muda muda muda!

Kek.

ctulhuslp said:
Also, wrt Western Ymaryn. If we are a bit unsure about them, imagine what other polities think about two polities with PiA. :V poor poor sods in the region, now there are two of us.
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HK: "Sharpen the stakes! Get the torches!"
Everyone else: "Wha...?" *Ymaryn-chans start sucking* "HUGAFILLLBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHHHHH IT BURNS!"

Malevolo said:
He's realizing the dream of going out with the Aneki and the Imouto.... :lol:rofl::lol:rofl::lol:rofl::lol
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"Khem-kun who's bigger!?"
 
[X] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [PiA] Khemetri (Probably a Spiritual Value, hard to tell compatibility with new religion)​
 
Wiadi said:
Which is a reasonable and understandable approach. My response wasn't to everyone advocating against the reforms, just to the specific sentiments Speck was expressing in the post I quoted.
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The first thing a government should aim for is the continued survival of it's citizens.
One cannot build towering heights, without having a solid foundation.
 
OliWhail said:
...is this actually likely to be true here, mechanically? That would be extremely interesting.
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Not sure, but it should be. Cities have a ton of disease due to cramming in so many people in such a small space, but that also means that the baseline citizen of a city is going to be more resistant to disease due to having encountered so many different kinds.

During the american civil war, the northern armies had entire regiments of mostly city born soldiers, and those regiments were noticeably more quickly trained and less likely to die to disease than their rural counterparts.
 
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10ebbor10 said:
If the ruling class of a nation has a go at one another, you have a civil war. The structure of the military doesn't really matter for that. The Urban poor, the Yeomanry or the Ruling elites themselves would all just be as divided.
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Current military structure have Yeomans act as holding pin preventing Partisans throwing warriors at one another because Yeomans have better things to do than be someone else's beat stick. But when the Urban Poor became the main stream warriors? They will be the beat stick unless they feel starvation is a acceptable price for their principal. Not to mention the priests getting their own support base setup with direct access to urban poor and sharp objects to arm them with.
 
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