Paths of Civilization

[veekie]

Every damn time. Main actions represent a larger commitment, not a better commitment. In the case where more is better, then yes, a main action is 'better,' but I would say that a larger effort put into building a village doesn't necessarily mean we'll build a smaller village quicker, it has just as much possibility (if not more) to be a larger village at the same pace.

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This is outright word of AN from before. I'll source it if required, but again, quoting on mobile.

Settlement MAXIMUM success primarily depends on the location, and investing more effort means it reaches maturity faster, which in turn means that it starts producing returns from it's surrounding lands sooner.

Which is to say there's usually not much reason to Main a settlement unless speed of construction is vital.

@veekie The first part yes, even if the order still needs to wait until the update. But the second part I can't agree with. We need to see if the settlement we build next is sufficient before we make plans to make a second one.

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In this case our population density is already very high, before we absorbed the migrants remember? We definitely have the manpower to operate two new settlements in rapid succession.

The Walls in the main village I see no reason for. To get to it, they have to somehow pass both our northern and southern borders that have walled villages and mountains to contend with as well with no route directly to our east. Stability is nice, but with the Economy as we have it and better awareness of what might be needed, I don't think the buffer is necessary. Better to just start up the Canal second turn as we only have so much grace period from the Nomads.

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The walls are threefold:
-The main village is theoretically vulnerable. Remember there are no hard borders, and raiders can simply bypass a village that's defended to hit another. Also there's an eastern access to the main village through the badlands without passing through the lower valley village. Would prefer to have walls up and not need it than to need it and not have it. Especially when we just brought all the nomads past it, so they know where to find it and they know how rich it is. Paranoia yes, but in this case the cost is minor.
-Boosting institutional stoneworking knowledge helps the Canal. A crew of masons from a wall project on the turn previous should still be available when the Canal starts.
-Attempting to make Walls automatic with each settlement. Build them often enough and we should be able to automate basic city walls for all major settlements

Stability:
-Remember we're intentionally starting a clusterfuck in the south. Being prepared to tank at least one Stability hit is essential because I anticipate at least one of the lowland factions to suffer stability loss in the next three or four turns. Hitting negative stability during the megaproject is a major bad thing.

I would rather avoid building a settlement on the coast until we can push fishing, but it's the only other viable location.

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It's explicit that pushing fishing will have low returns without a second coastal village(and that a second coastal village next turn will be able to take advantage of this turn's fishing expansion).

We can build a village without Fishing, but not the other way round.

The only real issue I have with this setup is that instead of study forest, I would rather expand it for a first action. We have the people to care for and defend it, and if I recall, our northern village needs some trees. Essentially a border expansion.

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Uh...not getting the logic of this. Sorry.

I like it. If it was me though, I would probably switch the two settlement actions around on the off chance that not having an extra coastal settlement for a little while longer might prompt someone to invent better boats. It's rather unlikely, but what would we lose?

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Mostly, less chance of improving boats. The simplest way to trigger a boat improvement is to have more people on boats. We've already reached the limits of putting more people on boats with Fishing alone, so a new village would double the number of boats and thus boost the chances of coming up with a new one.

Also I might leave the walls in the valley slot open to be filled in with something to deal with the inevitable crisis or opportunity that is bound to appear.

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Certainly. It's good to have, but it's not locked into the slot.

Heck, depending on how the nomads do and what else is going wrong, I might push for getting the canal immediately- completing a mega project provides stability along with its other benefits thanks to our trait, and we want to get it done before the DPs come to attack us. Getting the canal done before the Nomads get more than a few generations down (thus weakening the promise) would be very useful.

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Megaproject takes 3-4 turns to do, so that would be highly optimistic and leaves us highly vulnerable through the construction process.

Restore Harmony should only be use when corruption is in play. Using it when instability comes from refugees leads to xenophobia or internal persecution. Using it when it's at 0 or 1 leads to Autocracy, as Restore Harmony is an action that uses the military and the Blackbirds to enforce the High Chief's will.

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This is not true though?
Restore Harmony involves police action, but this mainly involves the Blackbirds watching people and catching criminals. In times of high stability, it helps reinforce social stability by removing sources of trouble before they brew.

You only get Autocracy when Restore Harmony replaces the normal power structure, which only happens when the power structure is more corrupt than the society.
See the Blackbirds update and the one after that for the effect of Restore Harmony. They mainly watch for problems and report in.

If people are unhappy in a small way, they enable the chiefs to react to the unhappiness before it becomes civil disobedience. If people are causing trouble, the Blackbirds gather evidence, and then the chiefs enforce punishments to bring them back in line

Considering Restore Harmony is specifically enabled by the traits that reduce xenophobia, internal strife and autocracy, the claim doesn't hold up.
Remember Protective Justice. Justice is served by minimizing harm.

Thats why the chiefs were on the takedown list. Bastards were causing more harm than good

 

[Sivantic]

Wtf... I'm talking about the DP - who might be unfamiliar with forests but fight on foot.

It's canon 10 days round trip travel - prior to the establishment of trails - from the lower valley village to the valley city proper, with a multi-day tour in the middle included.

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Herpaderp, some people had been talking about the Nomads backstabbing us, that is why my mind went to them first. They would still have to find us first and spend months getting the lip of our territory as well. The first settlers who turned into our Southern Valley Village had absolutely no idea about us, and group fights like the Death Priests are used are not for fighting in hills or woods, let alone both.

In this case our population density is already very high, before we absorbed the migrants remember? We definitely have the manpower to operate two new settlements in rapid succession.

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False that was after we absorbed the immigrants. Wait until after the update to decide whether we need more or not.

The walls are threefold:
-The main village is theoretically vulnerable. Remember there are no hard borders, and raiders can simply bypass a village that's defended to hit another. Also there's an eastern access to the main village through the badlands without passing through the lower valley village. Would prefer to have walls up and not need it than to need it and not have it. Especially when we just brought all the nomads past it, so they know where to find it and they know how rich it is. Paranoia yes, but in this case the cost is minor.
-Boosting institutional stoneworking knowledge helps the Canal. A crew of masons from a wall project on the turn previous should still be available when the Canal starts.
-Attempting to make Walls automatic with each settlement. Build them often enough and we should be able to automate basic city walls for all major settlements

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Going line by line,
Yes, it's paranoia. We are sending one group of Nomads under the rule of their hero and bot his sons and their sons will honor the bargain. They take their word very seriously, and right now they are centralized.
Minor. I see Survey Land more important at this stage than masonry. And our past work with Main Walls and Step-farms have already gotten us there, I don't see another one as necessary for this project.
Building Walls is still a big project in this era, I don't see this becoming automatic.

 

[Umi-san]

Herpaderp, some people had been talking about the Nomads backstabbing us, that is why my mind went to them first. They would still have to find us first and spend months getting the lip of our territory as well. The first settlers who turned into our Southern Valley Village had absolutely no idea about us, and group fights like the Death Priests are used are not for fighting in hills or woods, let alone both.

False that was after we absorbed the immigrants. Wait until after the update to decide whether we need more or not.

Going line by line,
Yes, it's paranoia. We are sending one group of Nomads under the rule of their hero and bot his sons and their sons will honor the bargain. They take their word very seriously, and right now they are centralized.
Minor. I see Survey Land more important at this stage than masonry. And our past work with Main Walls and Step-farms have already gotten us there, I don't see another one as necessary for this project.
Building Walls is still a big project in this era, I don't see this becoming automatic.

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They knew we were up this valley and past the seemingly shitty badlands. And since by now we've been raiding the DP for a large number of years they're hardly unaware of us, and could torture info out of slaves if they desire it.
They won't need to blindly go through the forest, they can follow the trails. Which will probably lead to an ambush but whatevs. & if they catch us by the populated zone, forests aren't present.

DENSITY was high both before and after we took in immigrants, though we appear to consistently be behind the nomads and WC in total population.
We're sending all the nomads, acc to WoG.
I agree that walling the valley immediately isn't necessary, but it needs to be done at some point.
Step farms are big projects in this era but they've become automatic. Not that I support autowalling every settlement, though, as it decreases the city's growth rate and risks disease if ppl all live in the walled area rather than retreating to it when necessary.

 

[pbluekan]

It's explicit that pushing fishing will have low returns without a second coastal village(and that a second coastal village next turn will be able to take advantage of this turn's fishing expansion

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That our fishers will be more motivated to build a better boat should we not make it easy and build a new settlement is implictly stated. I've said this before, but I would rather sacrifice another turn or two of null fishing results if it nets us improved naval tech. Then after we have that tech, a village can be placed. The long term benefits of the tech, and the opportunities it opens up outweigh the immediacy of an Econ prop.

Nevertheless, I agree we need the new settlements, so I suppose my point is moot.

 

[Andres]

Restore Harmony involves police action, but this mainly involves the Blackbirds watching people and catching criminals. In times of high stability, it helps reinforce social stability by removing sources of trouble before they brew.

You only get Autocracy when Restore Harmony replaces the normal power structure, which only happens when the power structure is more corrupt than the society.
See the Blackbirds update and the one after that for the effect of Restore Harmony. They mainly watch for problems and report in.

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Restore Harmony is, to quote, "Send in the warriors to reassure people and root out corruption and dissent". The Blackbirds were part of it, but not all of it. The "heavy-handed actions" mentioned in those updates where the High Chief using the warriors to enforce his will. Sending in the warriors is disproportionate retribution when the internal problems they're meant to solve are ultimately minor things. When such minor things results in such drastic action as the mobilisation of war assets and ninja spies, that's a problem.

Considering Restore Harmony is specifically enabled by the traits that reduce xenophobia, internal strife and autocracy, the claim doesn't hold up.

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Restore Harmony is enabled by Sacred War, which is about killing heretics, and Harmony, which is about making sure everything's nice and orderly. Land of Opportunity is the anti-xenophobia trait and it has nothing to do with Restore Harmony.

 

[Lailoken]

Moving the nomads in is likely to provoke another wave of refugees even if the Dead Priests don't press their war to make up for the lost subjects. We need to be ready to tank the stability hit again next turn, not the turn after.

 

[Sivantic]

They knew we were up this valley and past the seemingly shitty badlands. And since by now we've been raiding the DP for a large number of years they're hardly unaware of us, and could torture info out of slaves if they desire it.
They won't need to blindly go through the forest, they can follow the trails. Which will probably lead to an ambush but whatevs. & if they catch us by the populated zone, forests aren't present.

DENSITY was high both before and after we took in immigrants, though we appear to consistently be behind the nomads and WC in total population.
We're sending all the nomads, acc to WoG.
I agree that walling the valley immediately isn't necessary, but it needs to be done at some point.
Step farms are big projects in this era but they've become automatic. Not that I support autowalling every settlement, though, as it decreases the city's growth rate and risks disease if ppl all live in the walled area rather than retreating to it when necessary.

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We've still been playing our cards pretty close to our chest and sending minor War Missions down south, this also isn't the era where they can find exact information.

They also have to somehow get past the Western Confederacy, the Nomads, and the Spirit Talkers before they even get to our own land first. We won't be their first targets.

Step-Farms became automatic for the same reason War Carts became automatic. They were an upgrade to existing tech. Walls I still think require a dedicated turn.

More than anything I want the Canal Project started ASAP and don't want to wait more for it than we have to.
For me next turn is Festival, Settlement and Wall to help neutralize current problems.
Next turn after is Canal, Survey Land with the third project for whatever pops up. So maybe another settlement, maybe study forest, as long as we start the Canal.

@veekie @Andres110 If you really are that worried about it, why don't we just Main Festival this next turn so we don't have to argue about Restore Harmony for next turn? That way we have a chance of getting +2 Stability out of it instead of the +1 from secondary Festival.

 

[Andres]

@veekie @Andres110 If you really are that worried about it, why don't we just Main Festival this next turn so we don't have to argue about Restore Harmony for next turn? That way we have a chance of getting +2 Stability out of it instead of the +1 from secondary Festival.

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I have stated my intent to vote for Main Festival since before the last update. I just haven't been going on and on about it.

 

[redzonejoe]

I'm semi-permanently against maining festival ever.

 

[veekie]

False that was after we absorbed the immigrants. Wait until after the update to decide whether we need more or not.

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No, we were already encountering overpopulation for a while before that. It's never been a frontline topic, but we had the excess population to create a new settlement two generations ago, before we added the refugees. With them even two settlements might be underestimating it.

Yes, it's paranoia. We are sending one group of Nomads under the rule of their hero and bot his sons and their sons will honor the bargain. They take their word very seriously, and right now they are centralized.
Minor. I see Survey Land more important at this stage than masonry. And our past work with Main Walls and Step-farms have already gotten us there, I don't see another one as necessary for this project.
Building Walls is still a big project in this era, I don't see this becoming automatic.

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Argument accepted. Valley walls put on lower priority.
Though I believe Survey Land might be more useful when done on the same turn as the Canal instead of before(since we're more likely to find minerals during the digging that way), there are plenty of options which we might need an open slot to cover.

If nothing else Expand Fishing after the Coastal settlement might be a good trigger for getting the boats.

That our fishers will be more motivated to build a better boat should we not make it easy and build a new settlement is implictly stated. I've said this before, but I would rather sacrifice another turn or two of null fishing results if it nets us improved naval tech. Then after we have that tech, a village can be placed. The long term benefits of the tech, and the opportunities it opens up outweigh the immediacy of an Econ prop.

Nevertheless, I agree we need the new settlements, so I suppose my point is moot.

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The issue is mostly that...innovation and adaptation doesn't work like that. You're as likely to annoy people for wasting efforts and getting people killed as to make a breakthrough. Innovation comes with quantity...and currently the Fishers are only 1/5th of our people. Boosting their proportion would increase investment in fishing and more people moving in who might have fresh ideas about how to make a boat.

Restore Harmony is, to quote, "Send in the warriors to reassure people and root out corruption and dissent". The Blackbirds were part of it, but not all of it. The "heavy-handed actions" mentioned in those updates where the High Chief using the warriors to enforce his will. Sending in the warriors is disproportionate retribution when the internal problems they're meant to solve are ultimately minor things. When such minor things results in such drastic action as the mobilisation of war assets and ninja spies, that's a problem.


Restore Harmony is enabled by Sacred War, which is about killing heretics, and Harmony, which is about making sure everything's nice and orderly. Land of Opportunity is the anti-xenophobia trait and it has nothing to do with Restore Harmony.

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And what do you think the police are? You don't get to law enforcement without going through the intermediary phase.

Look at our traits, what do they say about Restore Harmony?
-Shapers of the Land - Those littering or befouling the environment will be punished.
-Protective Justice - Bad behaviour must be discouraged before it happens. Good behaviors must be rewarded.
-Land of Opportunity - Migrants strengthen the community, those who mistreat them must be discouraged
-Honorable Death - Enforcers are willing to die to get it done, but death is a weaker deterrence for those who believe they are doing the right thing.
-Harmony - Those who act selfishly must be discouraged.
-Sacred War - Those who violate our rules must be punished.

When you combine them, you get "Harsh but fair" law enforcement aimed at cutting off crimes before they happen or go too far.

Why past Restore Harmony was heavyhanded was because the chief was explicitly a high Martial, crap Diplomacy/Economy leader.

Moving the nomads in is likely to provoke another wave of refugees even if the Dead Priests don't press their war to make up for the lost subjects. We need to be ready to tank the stability hit again next turn, not the turn after.

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And yes, this. The practical reason is that we just dumped a Stability hit source into the lowlands. Whoever wins, at least one of them will suffer Stability loss and supply migrants. We need a buffer.

 

[veekie]

@veekie @Andres110 If you really are that worried about it, why don't we just Main Festival this next turn so we don't have to argue about Restore Harmony for next turn? That way we have a chance of getting +2 Stability out of it instead of the +1 from secondary Festival.

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I doubt the Festival can do that FYI, its not trait augmented, and a more 'basic' action than Restore Harmony,when the main draw of Restore Harmony is its ability to give +2 stability

Plus, social stability needs a combination of both amusements and law enforcement.

If we Restore Harmony when not in the negatives, then we'd be able to set up policing(and hopefully fuse Sacred War into Justice) rather than crackdowns.

 

[Sivantic]

I'm semi-permanently against maining festival ever.

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Why?

No, we were already encountering overpopulation for a while before that. It's never been a frontline topic, but we had the excess population to create a new settlement two generations ago, before we added the refugees. With them even two settlements might be underestimating it.

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As I said, I will wait for update before I back it. Also we never asked about how crowded we were, so I don't see where you're getting the crowded before the recent infusion from.

If nothing else Expand Fishing after the Coastal settlement might be a good trigger for getting the boats.

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Still a little confused why on the coast first rather than the river Confluence. Wouldn't it be better to build it there before the Canal Project?

I doubt the Festival can do that FYI, its not trait augmented, and a more 'basic' action than Restore Harmony,when the main draw of Restore Harmony is its ability to give +2 stability

Plus, social stability needs a combination of both amusements and law enforcement.

If we Restore Harmony when not in the negatives, then we'd be able to set up policing(and hopefully fuse Sacred War into Justice) rather than crackdowns.

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@Academia Nut What is the difference between Main and Secondary Establish Annual Festival? Can it give us +2 Stability?

 

[VoidZero]

@Academia Nut

If we start a mega project with secondary action, can we switch it to main action later?

 

[pbluekan]

The issue is mostly that...innovation and adaptation doesn't work like that. You're as likely to annoy people for wasting efforts and getting people killed as to make a breakthrough. Innovation comes with quantity...and currently the Fishers are only 1/5th of our people. Boosting their proportion would increase investment in fishing and more people moving in who might have fresh ideas about how to make a boat.

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Point. I forget how small a population the fishers are.

 

[zamin]

On a less serious note, can you imagine how bullshit Land of Opportunity must look to all our neighbors?

While you're starving because the drought wiped out your crops... the Hill People have so much food that they're thinking of throwing a Festival.

While you're stuck in a generations old war of survival against the Dead Priests... the Hill People are setting up new villages along the coast.

While your civilization is being crushed under the weight of nomad and Dead Priest raiders... the Hill People are putting the finishing touches on a Grand Canal that spans their entire civilization.

 

[Umi-san]

We've still been playing our cards pretty close to our chest and sending minor War Missions down south, this also isn't the era where they can find exact information.

They also have to somehow get past the Western Confederacy, the Nomads, and the Spirit Talkers before they even get to our own land first. We won't be their first targets.

Step-Farms became automatic for the same reason War Carts became automatic. They were an upgrade to existing tech. Walls I still think require a dedicated turn.

More than anything I want the Canal Project started ASAP and don't want to wait more for it than we have to.
For me next turn is Festival, Settlement and Wall to help neutralize current problems.
Next turn after is Canal, Survey Land with the third project for whatever pops up. So maybe another settlement, maybe study forest, as long as we start the Canal.

@veekie @Andres110 If you really are that worried about it, why don't we just Main Festival this next turn so we don't have to argue about Restore Harmony for next turn? That way we have a chance of getting +2 Stability out of it instead of the +1 from secondary Festival.

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Exact information = torture enough people to get a satisfactory image. You don't need a satellite map level of detail, you figure out where in general they are, go to that place, and follow the trails, preferably w/ pairs of scouts preceding a vanguard.

Lol what? No, they have to get past maybe a couple of WC settlements but the ST directly borders the DP off to the side. Or at least that's how I picture it, as follows: The nomad lands are a giant rectangle at the top, below that are two squares (us and ST) below us in what I imagine to be a long thin rectangle are the WC, with the DP to the side of them, touching ST and other people. The DP can directly reach us with raids and etc., it's just that the WC and unnamed auxiliaries are easier. If you have something that contradicts this portrayal, please quote the passage directly.

*shrug* That kind of makes sense, but you're basically still admitting walls can be made automatic. They'll never reach that point if we don't make them.

I'm fine-ish with your plan for choices. I wouldn't truly mind waiting another turn, but I'd like to finally see the canal. I'll probably want to spend the third choice on another settlement, maybe. I just want to make all the settlements we can internally so that we can stop being all "we need to develop internally."

Can a Main Festival give a +2? I wouldn't mind maining it if it would give that much of a bonus.

 

[bluefur87]

Can a Main Festival give a +2? I wouldn't mind maining it if it would give that much of a bonus.

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We don't know, it does seem to give us art though.

I would like to specify something about festivals and what I suspect maining them does since that feeds into my plan that I don't have enough information to fully put forward yet.

Okay, so setting up a festival improves stability to some degree, the exact of which is not fully known. It is also a great number of people getting together. So, what if they start holding events? Small, friendly competitions of a sort. I would not be surprised, at all, if maining festivals led to us creating games or maybe even a sport.

 

[Umi-san]

We don't know, it does seem to give us art though.

I would like to specify something about festivals and what I suspect maining them does since that feeds into my plan that I don't have enough information to fully put forward yet.

Okay, so setting up a festival improves stability to some degree, the exact of which is not fully known. It is also a great number of people getting together. So, what if they start holding events? Small, friendly competitions of a sort. I would not be surprised, at all, if maining festivals led to us creating games or maybe even a sport.

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...?
We already have a sport: gardening. We already have games: chasing enemies in carts and counting grain. What more do you want?

 

[Lailoken]

I'm tempted to go with a main restore harmony, a secondary festival, and a secondary settlement.

There are more refugees coming down the pipe. We need to get stability solid now so we can tank them without needing to pull from the other commitments we're sinking the econ bonanza into. Harmony and festival are likely synergistic on y, and considering the source of the instability another settlement may also synergize if done with the other two.

 

[bluefur87]

...?
We already have a sport: gardening. We already have games: chasing enemies in carts and counting grain. What more do you want?

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Exactly? The sort of games that could, say, attract nomads to our settlements for the festival and bring their own food in the form of meat and milk and such for the party, thus causing some cultural assimilation.

 

[Umi-san]

Exactly? The sort of games that could, say, attract nomads to our settlements for the festival and bring their own food in the form of meat and milk and such for the party, thus causing some cultural assimilation.

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Chasing ppl in carts is a mutual pleasure. Maybe we'll end up with racing, and among ourselves archery. And then we'll mix them. But that's only rly applicable to warriors, & I don't think games our base culture would come up w/ would carry over well.

 

[bluefur87]

Chasing ppl in carts is a mutual pleasure. Maybe we'll end up with racing, and among ourselves archery. And then we'll mix them. But that's only rly applicable to warriors, & I don't think games our base culture would come up w/ would carry over well.

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I think it could work, the nomads are known to like a party, and they may take an established annual one to be the equivalent of being a beacon to come and celebrate it with us, thus kick starting all of this fun. Now, I'm going to just start waiting for someone to figure out my plan I have brewing and why I am calling it maverick, and hope they will be open minded on it.

 

[Umi-san]

I think it could work, the nomads are known to like a party, and they may take an established annual one to be the equivalent of being a beacon to come and celebrate it with us, thus kick starting all of this fun. Now, I'm going to just start waiting for someone to figure out my plan I have brewing and why I am calling it maverick, and hope they will be open minded on it.

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I hope you're not planning on throwing such a kickass bash that all the nomads we're escorting along our roads are seduced by our excess of alcoholic porridge.

 

[Hangwind]

I don't think games our base culture would come up w/ would carry over well.

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You do remember that we standardized gambling and whoring right? Made them their own professions with well trained professionals in semi-familial lines like everything else we do?

Trust me, our games translate just fine. There's a reason that even with Econ 1 or 0 we're still the land of opportunity...

 

[Hyacinthium]

If we do Canal soon then River settlement is gonna be of importance. And Survey Land. And build walls. And... I dunno.

I feel bad about neglecting our Snails.