Paths of Civilization

[Hyacinthium]

All we have to do is marry our womenfolk to our new citizens after we show them how to farm correctly. Works every time!

What do you mean it might not work?

 

[Sivantic]

Settlement Main just means faster returns. I think given the overpopulation, Secondary works fine.
Still need Festival and Walls though. Hopefully a Main Walls might make them standard for all settlements in future.

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Right, not arguing against that, just saying we should be able to do Survey Land at the same time as Canal Project since they probably synergize

I can still see the need for Wall, but I'm going to wait until the update before I set my backing completely for it.

We came from the lowlands IIRC. We left because our neighbors(aka the common ancestors of the WC and DPs) took up farming so we couldn't hunt. So we walked off to the hills where the land was crappier but nobody made a fuss over it. And then developed a culture of SEVERE land development because the soil was crap.

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And now, we have the best land, and they are suffering desertification. Oh the irony

All we have to do is marry our womenfolk to our new citizens after we show them how to farm correctly. Works every time!

What do you mean it might not work?

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That's why we offer our men as well


At this point we need to wait for the update, it all depends on that info.

 

[Eri]

@Academia Nut
Are we still really short compared to the nomads?

 

[Hyacinthium]

Right, not arguing against that, just saying we should be able to do Survey Land at the same time as Canal Project since they probably synergize

I can still see the need for Wall, but I'm going to wait until the update before I set my backing completely for it.

And now, we have the best land, and they are suffering desertification. Oh the irony

That's why we offer our men as well


At this point we need to wait for the update, it all depends on that info.

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I'm real tempted to do Survey Land and Study Forest together as soon as possible. Otherwise I fear they may never get done, much like the River settlement. And it wouldn't hurt to do them at the same time either.

 

[veekie]

Make their current economic-cultural systems look less appealing than yours. It's not that easy, all things considered.

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Lets see, the strategies here:
-Spirit Talkers - Mysticism and Trade. They inflate the percieved value of their system through adding intangible immeasurable value from the spirits. Quite successful, but their base system has very low value from lack of good agriculture, which leaves them trailing.

-Dead Priests - "Your cultural values will leave you added to a throne of skulls, Ours leave you sitting on smaller thrones of skulls, your choice". Intimidation, plus buy-in grants both personal safety and ensures that the physical labor is done by a subcaste of people instead of yourself. The slaves don't like it but they don't get a say.

-Western Confederacy - Freedom. Freedom to expand, to farm, to trade, to do as you like, and if you don't like what the guy is talking about you get your friends and start your OWN place, with blackjack and hookers!

-Hill People - If you join us and work hard all your life you and your children will never go hungry or face dangers alone. But you must conform to our culture and give freely to those in need.

-Nomads - Join us for glory, we ride and grow rich and strong where others dig the earth and grow weak!

You can see why we aren't as appealing. Nobody likes to work hard, nobody likes to give their shit away..

 

[pbluekan]

I'm pretty sure the answer to that is "More villages". The more place people have to bunk, the faster we can get them working and under the same umbrella

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You guys do realize that at a certain point we are going to risk the malus from Sacred Forest by building too much. You can't just "build more villages" we need to balance it with expand / study forest. @Academia Nut has stated multiple times that just mashing buttons is what gets the other cultures into trouble. Remember when the spirit talkers collapsed? Button mashing,

 

[Sivantic]

I'm real tempted to do Survey Land and Study Forest together as soon as possible. Otherwise I fear they may never get done, much like the River settlement. And it wouldn't hurt to do them at the same time either.

Click to shrink...

Survey Land would help in Canal Building, and I can help push Study Forest. We have Econ 8, short of doing nothing synergistic(and maybe even then) we don't have a lot to worry about on that front. We will be doing synergistic projects, but there should be space to do some science as well.

 

[Sivantic]

You guys do realize that at a certain point we are going to risk the malus from Sacred Forest by building too much. You can't just "build more villages" we need to balance it with expand / study forest. @Academia Nut has stated multiple times that just mashing buttons is what gets the other cultures into trouble. Remember when the spirit talkers collapsed? Button mashing,

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So what, take Expand Forest and...?

Honest question, what do you think would help remedy that? We still need to build Settlements and our People understand the value of our Forests and what they provide.

 

[veekie]

Survey Land would help in Canal Building, and I can help push Study Forest. We have Econ 8, short of doing nothing synergistic(and maybe even then) we don't have a lot to worry about on that front. We will be doing synergistic projects, but there should be space to do some science as well.

Click to shrink...

Current, very vague plan:
Next Turn:
[Main] Build Walls - Lower Valley
[Secondary] New Settlement - Coastal
[Secondary] Festival

Deal with the immediate crisis first, and relieve population pressure.

Turn after
[Main] Restore Harmony
[Secondary] New Settlement - River Fork
[Secondary] Build Walls - Valley

This is to buy up the Stability buffer for the megaproject, as if we wind up absorbing migrants again during the project, we won't be able to Restore Harmony safely without a main slot. It finishes walling the villages that might be at risk from Nomads/DPs.
The new settlement here is the project work site for the Canal. Makes it easier.

Turn after
[Main] Canal
[Secondary] Survey Land
[Secondary] Study Forest

With the income from the two settlements kicking in and the Stability issues bought off, we can synergize the Study Land and Forest options with the Canal construction, so that our people pay CLOSE attention to the consequences of digging such a large earthwork, figure out how to use living plants to stabilize and bridge water bodies, and pay attention to anything shiny they find along the way there(boost to metal discovery due to canal exposing a lot of hidden ground, current survey is unlikely to find metal as everything has forest on it).

Expand Forest isn't an issue yet. All new settlements are in areas with extant forests

 

[tenchifew]

So what, take Expand Forest and...?

Honest question, what do you think would help remedy that? We still need to build Settlements and our People understand the value of our Forests and what they provide.

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Probably expanding forests, study forests, possibly expand sacred places, and not taking too many new settlements actions one after the other.

More black soil actions should help as well.

 

[VoidZero]

I'm going for mega project. The low stability is from sudden influx of people. So if we make everyone dead tired no one with have time for distractions.

Canal
Survey land
Study forest

 

[tenchifew]

Current, very vague plan:
Next Turn:
[Main] Build Walls - Lower Valley
[Secondary] New Settlement - Coastal
[Secondary] Festival

Deal with the immediate crisis first, and relieve population pressure.

Turn after
[Main] Restore Harmony
[Secondary] New Settlement - River Fork
[Secondary] Build Walls - Valley

This is to buy up the Stability buffer for the megaproject, as if we wind up absorbing migrants again during the project, we won't be able to Restore Harmony safely without a main slot. It finishes walling the villages that might be at risk from Nomads/DPs.
The new settlement here is the project work site for the Canal. Makes it easier.

Turn after
[Main] Canal
[Secondary] Survey Land
[Secondary] Study Forest

With the income from the two settlements kicking in and the Stability issues bought off, we can synergize the Study Land and Forest options with the Canal construction, so that our people pay CLOSE attention to the consequences of digging such a large earthwork, figure out how to use living plants to stabilize and bridge water bodies, and pay attention to anything shiny they find along the way there(boost to metal discovery due to canal exposing a lot of hidden ground, current survey is unlikely to find metal as everything has forest on it).

Expand Forest isn't an issue yet. All new settlements are in areas with extant forests

Click to shrink...

Like this plan.

 

[Powerofmind]

Settlement Main just means faster returns.

Click to shrink...

Every damn time. Main actions represent a larger commitment, not a better commitment. In the case where more is better, then yes, a main action is 'better,' but I would say that a larger effort put into building a village doesn't necessarily mean we'll build a smaller village quicker, it has just as much possibility (if not more) to be a larger village at the same pace.

 

[Sivantic]

@veekie The first part yes, even if the order still needs to wait until the update. But the second part I can't agree with. We need to see if the settlement we build next is sufficient before we make plans to make a second one. The Walls in the main village I see no reason for. To get to it, they have to somehow pass both our northern and southern borders that have walled villages and mountains to contend with as well with no route directly to our east. Stability is nice, but with the Economy as we have it and better awareness of what might be needed, I don't think the buffer is necessary. Better to just start up the Canal second turn as we only have so much grace period from the Nomads.

 

[pbluekan]

Current, very vague plan:
Next Turn:
[Main] Build Walls - Lower Valley
[Secondary] New Settlement - Coastal
[Secondary] Festival

Deal with the immediate crisis first, and relieve population pressure.

Turn after
[Main] Restore Harmony
[Secondary] New Settlement - River Fork
[Secondary] Build Walls - Valley

This is to buy up the Stability buffer for the megaproject, as if we wind up absorbing migrants again during the project, we won't be able to Restore Harmony safely without a main slot. It finishes walling the villages that might be at risk from Nomads/DPs.
The new settlement here is the project work site for the Canal. Makes it easier.

Turn after
[Main] Canal
[Secondary] Survey Land
[Secondary] Study Forest

With the income from the two settlements kicking in and the Stability issues bought off, we can synergize the Study Land and Forest options with the Canal construction, so that our people pay CLOSE attention to the consequences of digging such a large earthwork, figure out how to use living plants to stabilize and bridge water bodies, and pay attention to anything shiny they find along the way there(boost to metal discovery due to canal exposing a lot of hidden ground, current survey is unlikely to find metal as everything has forest on it).

Expand Forest isn't an issue yet. All new settlements are in areas with extant forests

Click to shrink...

I would rather avoid building a settlement on the coast until we can push fishing, but it's the only other viable location.

The only real issue I have with this setup is that instead of study forest, I would rather expand it for a first action. We have the people to care for and defend it, and if I recall, our northern village needs some trees. Essentially a border expansion.

 

[Eri]

Current, very vague plan:
Next Turn:
[Main] Build Walls - Lower Valley
[Secondary] New Settlement - Coastal
[Secondary] Festival

Deal with the immediate crisis first, and relieve population pressure.

Turn after
[Main] Restore Harmony
[Secondary] New Settlement - River Fork
[Secondary] Build Walls - Valley

This is to buy up the Stability buffer for the megaproject, as if we wind up absorbing migrants again during the project, we won't be able to Restore Harmony safely without a main slot. It finishes walling the villages that might be at risk from Nomads/DPs.
The new settlement here is the project work site for the Canal. Makes it easier.

Turn after
[Main] Canal
[Secondary] Survey Land
[Secondary] Study Forest

With the income from the two settlements kicking in and the Stability issues bought off, we can synergize the Study Land and Forest options with the Canal construction, so that our people pay CLOSE attention to the consequences of digging such a large earthwork, figure out how to use living plants to stabilize and bridge water bodies, and pay attention to anything shiny they find along the way there(boost to metal discovery due to canal exposing a lot of hidden ground, current survey is unlikely to find metal as everything has forest on it).

Expand Forest isn't an issue yet. All new settlements are in areas with extant forests

Click to shrink...

I like it. If it was me though, I would probably switch the two settlement actions around on the off chance that not having an extra coastal settlement for a little while longer might prompt someone to invent better boats. It's rather unlikely, but what would we lose?

Also I might leave the walls in the valley slot open to be filled in with something to deal with the inevitable crisis or opportunity that is bound to appear.

 

[notgreat]

Heck, depending on how the nomads do and what else is going wrong, I might push for getting the canal immediately- completing a mega project provides stability along with its other benefits thanks to our trait, and we want to get it done before the DPs come to attack us. Getting the canal done before the Nomads get more than a few generations down (thus weakening the promise) would be very useful.

 

[Umi-san]

@veekie The first part yes, even if the order still needs to wait until the update. But the second part I can't agree with. We need to see if the settlement we build next is sufficient before we make plans to make a second one. The Walls in the main village I see no reason for. To get to it, they have to somehow pass both our northern and southern borders that have walled villages and mountains to contend with as well with no route directly to our east. Stability is nice, but with the Economy as we have it and better awareness of what might be needed, I don't think the buffer is necessary. Better to just start up the Canal second turn as we only have so much grace period from the Nomads.

Click to shrink...

Why would you oppose the second settlement? It works to make the canal be built more efficiently. You should instead argue that the first settlement should be there rather than the coast, as the WC immigrants won't be familiar with fishing at all.
To get to the valley place all they have to do is go around the walled lower valley and discover that there's a vast unprotected city a couple days travel away. Assuming that they send scouts beforehand or with their army, this is going to occur. But *shrug* it is a secondary action that we can do while the canal is being built when we're waiting for more news.

 

[bluefur87]

Well, I have a certain desire for how to solve the settlement issue. It depends greatly on things going in a positive direction, though, and even then is a bit maverick, so I'm sitting on it for now.

We really need to see how the update will go before we make serious plans, honestly.

 

[Sivantic]

Why would you oppose the second settlement? It works to make the canal be built more efficiently. You should instead argue that the first settlement should be there rather than the coast, as the WC immigrants won't be familiar with fishing at all.
To get to the valley place all they have to do is go around the walled lower valley and discover that there's a vast unprotected city a couple days travel away. Assuming that they send scouts beforehand or with their army, this is going to occur. But *shrug* it is a secondary action that we can do while the canal is being built when we're waiting for more news.

Click to shrink...

Oh it's the second settlement that I'm against rather than the location

As to them going around?

We're almost completely surrounded by hills and the entry points are through the mountains. Add to the fact that the terrain is unfamiliar to them and the distance, we don't make good raiding territory.

 

[Andres]

[Main] Restore Harmony
[Secondary] New Settlement - River Fork
[Secondary] Build Walls - Valley

This is to buy up the Stability buffer for the megaproject, as if we wind up absorbing migrants again during the project, we won't be able to Restore Harmony safely without a main slot.

Click to shrink...

Restore Harmony should only be use when corruption is in play. Using it when instability comes from refugees leads to xenophobia or internal persecution. Using it when it's at 0 or 1 leads to Autocracy, as Restore Harmony is an action that uses the military and the Blackbirds to enforce the High Chief's will.

 

[Umi-san]

Oh it's the second settlement that I'm against rather than the location

As to them going around?

We're almost completely surrounded by hills and the entry points are through the mountains. Add to the fact that the terrain is unfamiliar to them and the distance, we don't make good raiding territory.

Click to shrink...

*rolls eyes* around the walled Lower Valley Settlement, NOT through a pass in the mountains to the side (which probably exists). If you have an army of people they don't have to attack a walled city they can just go past it. If there's enough of them you're not going to stop them. Sure, it will leave their back exposed but if the target is sweet enough...

Who says it's a raid? They stopped raiding the WC and switched to army-on-army combat. Invade the city, burn the houses, leave and take prisoners with them. Send them back and say you'll do it again. Or just camp out, I guess.

 

[BlueFlamingWings]

@Academia Nut

How is the trade of knowledge going with the Spirit Talkers?

 

[Sivantic]

*rolls eyes* around the walled Lower Valley Settlement, NOT through a pass in the mountains to the side (which probably exists). If you have an army of people they don't have to attack a walled city they can just go past it. If there's enough of them you're not going to stop them. Sure, it will leave their back exposed but if the target is sweet enough...

Who says it's a raid? They stopped raiding the WC and switched to army-on-army combat. Invade the city, burn the houses, leave and take prisoners with them. Send them back and say you'll do it again. Or just camp out, I guess.

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They're nomads, they do raids, not salt the earth. Go back to the point of view from their last hero. They do not want to fight in these hills, their best advantage, their carts, are useless in hills, let alone the forested hills uneven terrain we have.

And it isn't a few days travel, it's months travel.

 

[Umi-san]

They're nomads, they do raids, not salt the earth. Go back to the point of view from their last hero. They do not want to fight in these hills, their best advantage, their carts, are useless in hills, let alone the forested hills uneven terrain we have.

And it isn't a few days travel, it's months travel.

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Wtf... I'm talking about the DP - who might be unfamiliar with forests but fight on foot.

It's canon 10 days round trip travel - prior to the establishment of trails - from the lower valley village to the valley city proper, with a multi-day tour in the middle included.