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Paths of Civilization

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Susano said:
Look, I like baroque architecture, but that time especially was all about the stark contrast between the self-aggrandizing nobles and the starving or freezing (Little Ice Age) peasants. Resources are finite, and people are desperate, some in the cities now even starving. We can do this transcendence of man whatever after we've properly fed and sheltered everyone. And if this takes up all resources? Well that just goes to show that those resources were more needed on that task.
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That's revolutionary propaganda, the conditions of the peasantry in the Baroque was quite well for the era, food variety improved as did thier conditions, the only starving freezing lot where the German peasantry, and that's because of the 30 years war and the other wars that occurred in it leaving it a bandit ridden, ravaged War torn wasteland.


As for the Ymaryn, no one is starving, and no one is freezing, not in sicilian weather anyway. And culture isn't some ancillary thing of secondary value, quite the reverse, it is a prime purpose of civilisation and humanity. Humans are humans because we are social creatures, that trait was central to our evolution, and culture is the manifestation of that trait. Yes Grand monuments, high art, and bueaty are ruinously expensive, but we are expending that money and effort to fan the spark of humanity into a roaring blaze. A thing need not hold material worth for it to be of intrinsic value, for what is the worth of man? Of life? Of morals? Culture is as vital, nay more so, than concerns of poverty and technology.
 
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To borrow terms from Civilization, the more Culture we generate, the more of a pressure we will put out both externally and internally. If we want people to act like the Ymaryn of their own accord, Culture is what we need.

Hence why I want a Genius with that job description.
 
maximillian said:
I would support theatres for thier own sake, and the sake of empire. But an educational tool it is definitely not, it can be deeply philosophical and intellectual, it can create cultural intermingling and common points but it aient gonna teach people how to read and write.
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I consider philosophical and intellectual things part of what I mean when I say education. I also agree that literacy will probably not come from theatres. To be specific literacy is merely one piece of what I want more of.

*shrug*

More theatres are just going to be a nice thing for a multitude of reasons.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
I'm not sure if it's ever been mentioned what exact rights are delegated to them but the fact they occupy a subordinate slot imply it's more extensive than just a province would have.
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I'd missed the subordinate slot bit, that helps clarify it.

One thing I wonder is if its people can still appeal legal cases to some authority outside the city or if the city chief would have final say.
 
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Okay I'm baffled... why the hell are people arguing that everything is worthless as in a few thousand years it will be no but dust in the wind... and the trying to convince people those people to spend the resources on something as short term as children and the poor?

Either short term is the only worthwhile investment scale or your nihilists that somehow think that copy paste grey corridors are the height of art. You can't pick such blatantly opposite opinions and be coherent.
 
Concho117 said:
I'm surprised Academia Nut hasn't locked the vote...

@BungieONI can we get a NetTally inserted?
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Here.

Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 3934 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.9.1
Task: GA
[74][GA] Gain random genius (-15 Culture)
-[35][GA] Specify: Admin genius (Additional -3 Culture)
-[24][GA] Specify: Diplo genius (Additional -3 Culture)
-[15][GA] Specify: Culture genius (Additional -3 Culture)
[14][GA] Gain random hero (-10 Culture)
[12][GA] Erase Nemesis Fashion (-10 Culture)
[12][GA] Random materials tech upgrade (-8 Tech)
[6][GA] Random culture tech upgrade (-8 Culture)
-[5][GA] Specify: Diplo hero (Additional -2 Culture)
[4][GA] Mitigate Nemesis Fashion (-5 Culture)
-[3][GA] Specify: Admin hero (Additional -2 Culture)
-[3][GA] Specify: Culture hero (Additional -2 Culture)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: FC
[57][FC] Redhills
[34][FC] Redshore
[32][FC] Just one FC
[22][FC] None
[13][FC] Stallionpen
[9][FC] Sacred Forest
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Diplo
[65][Diplo] Tie everything together internally (Main Build Roads)
[21][Diplo] Talk with southern neighbours (Sec Trade Mission - Highlanders + Lowland Minors (South-West))
[18][Diplo] Talk with the Trelli (Main Trade Mission - Trelli)
[6][Diplo] Stay home, plant trees (Main Expand Forest)
[1][Diplo] Victory lap (Main Salt Gift)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: React
[45][React] Continue work on the Place to the Stars (5/7-8 actions completed)
-[28][React] Kick project (ISoO already triggered this turn)
[27][React] Main Build Glassworks
[12][React] 2xSec Blackmouth Governor's Palace
[12][React] Main Build Theatre
[7][React] Main Expand Forests
[3][React] Main Build Watchtowers
[1][React] 2xSec Dragon Graveyard Temple
Total No. of Voters: 104
 
maximillian said:
That's revolutionary propaganda, the conditions of the peasantry in the Baroque was quite well for the era, food variety improved as did thier conditions, the only starving freezing lot where the German peasantry, and that's because of the 30 years war and the other wars that occurred in it leaving it a bandit ridden, ravaged War torn wasteland.
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And the Polish peasants. And the Nordic peasants. And the Hungarian pasants. And...

And that's just what I meant. The nobles were at their magnificent courts, playing war games and trying to outdo each other with art, while all around them the people died from cold, starvation, plague and said war. And it wasn't just the 30 Years War. The Deluge killed a third of the Polish population, the French aggressions in the Palatinate a quarter of the population and so on and so forth. That was the normalcy of the time of Versailles.

for what I the worth of man? Of life?
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That is exactly what I'm talking about.
 
BungieONI said:
Here.

Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 3934 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.9.1
Task: GA
[74][GA] Gain random genius (-15 Culture)
-[35][GA] Specify: Admin genius (Additional -3 Culture)
-[24][GA] Specify: Diplo genius (Additional -3 Culture)
-[15][GA] Specify: Culture genius (Additional -3 Culture)
[14][GA] Gain random hero (-10 Culture)
[12][GA] Erase Nemesis Fashion (-10 Culture)
[12][GA] Random materials tech upgrade (-8 Tech)
[6][GA] Random culture tech upgrade (-8 Culture)
-[5][GA] Specify: Diplo hero (Additional -2 Culture)
[4][GA] Mitigate Nemesis Fashion (-5 Culture)
-[3][GA] Specify: Admin hero (Additional -2 Culture)
-[3][GA] Specify: Culture hero (Additional -2 Culture)
Task: FC
[57][FC] Redhills
[34][FC] Redshore
[32][FC] Just one FC
[22][FC] None
[13][FC] Stallionpen
[9][FC] Sacred Forest
Task: Diplo
[65][Diplo] Tie everything together internally (Main Build Roads)
[21][Diplo] Talk with southern neighbours (Sec Trade Mission - Highlanders + Lowland Minors (South-West))
[18][Diplo] Talk with the Trelli (Main Trade Mission - Trelli)
[6][Diplo] Stay home, plant trees (Main Expand Forest)
[1][Diplo] Victory lap (Main Salt Gift)
Task: React
[45][React] Continue work on the Place to the Stars (5/7-8 actions completed)
-[28][React] Kick project (ISoO already triggered this turn)
[27][React] Main Build Glassworks
[12][React] 2xSec Blackmouth Governor's Palace
[12][React] Main Build Theatre
[7][React] Main Expand Forests
[3][React] Main Build Watchtowers
[1][React] 2xSec Dragon Graveyard Temple
Total No. of Voters: 104
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Thank you kindly!
 
Necratoid said:
Okay I'm baffled... why the hell are people arguing that everything is worthless as in a few thousand years it will be no but dust in the wind... and the trying to convince people those people to spend the resources on something as short term as children and the poor?
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There is no sense in trying to build anything "lasting" or "for the ages". It's all dust within a few centuries, a few millennia at best. So we should concentrate on the present, should concentrate on making everyone happy here. Yes, I'm a nihilist, but at least I'm not a moral nihilist.
 
Susano said:
Look, I like baroque architecture, but that time especially was all about the stark contrast between the self-aggrandizing nobles and the starving or freezing (Little Ice Age) peasants. Resources are finite, and people are desperate, some in the cities now even starving. We can do this transcendence of man whatever after we've properly fed and sheltered everyone. And if this takes up all resources? Well that just goes to show that those resources were more needed on that task.
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No, they aren't.
 
DocMatoi said:
Same. If we were playing say, the Trelli right now, I'd have quit in disgust months ago. Being a bad guy isnt fun for me.
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Yep, just voting for what I want without worrying or getting very involved in the "good guys or not" debate is much more fun.

Us being the region's Boss for the True Ending is also just hilarious by itself.
 
OliWhail said:
Much of the human soul deserves derision. The part of it that lusts after self-aggrandizement, wastefulness, and opulence relative to one's neighbors is one such part.
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Art is useful, though. Not every field of study has immediate benefits, but all are useful eventually. Some people call philosophy useless, but without it we wouldn't have modern ethical standards or even the scientific method. Art entertains people, keeps them happy, and helps them find life more meaningful, all of which are essential for the stability of a civilization. The Roman Empire was held together by bread and circuses. Art spreads ideas and promotes greater understanding between people. Look at the significant historical impact stories such as Uncle Tom's Cabin or The Jungle had. Think about how much tourism the Great Pyramids brought, enough to repay Egypt for the expense thousands of times over.
 
Susano said:
There is no sense in trying to build anything "lasting" or "for the ages". It's all dust within a few centuries, a few millennia at best. So we should concentrate on the present, should concentrate on making everyone happy here. Yes, I'm a nihilist, but at least I'm not a moral nihilist.
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Then we should have stayed Hunter gathers no? Farming is too far an investment in the future which is but dust and ash...
 
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George said:
One thing I wonder is if its people can still appeal legal cases to some authority outside the city or if the city chief would have final say.
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I think anyone from our periphery states (Beyond vassals perhaps) can appeal to the king's justice, they're still following our laws after all and that is one of them. We're big enough now it's probably hard to get a case heard though, so despite the fact our free cities will be far closer than usual for periphery states so the hardship of traveling to the capital is lessened it probably still won't happen often.
 
Susano said:
There is no sense in trying to build anything "lasting" or "for the ages". It's all dust within a few centuries, a few millennia at best. So we should concentrate on the present, should concentrate on making everyone happy here. Yes, I'm a nihilist, but at least I'm not a moral nihilist.
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We could have had pyramids, but we never took that Wonder. There's more than a couple man made objects that could last millenia, even build by bronze/Iron/Steel age civilizations.
 
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