The stonehenge style thing is exactly what was described. You deliberately have to cut off sections of the sky to provide suitable frames of reference, but determining WHICH parts of the sky to cut off is non-trivial, leading to focusing on the same tracks as everyone else, following the paths of the sun and moon.

The Star Mirror gives us a different frame.
The stonehenge style was what we would build without the knowledge the Khemetri gave us, I'm pretty sure we will build something different now.

@Academia Nut does the knowledge the Khemetri gave us change how we will build PttS from it's initial design?
Edit: Also what does our Spiritual Advisor think about how the two sites compare?
 
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The stonehenge style thing is exactly what was described. You deliberately have to cut off sections of the sky to provide suitable frames of reference, but determining WHICH parts of the sky to cut off is non-trivial, leading to focusing on the same tracks as everyone else, following the paths of the sun and moon.

The Star Mirror gives us a different frame.
Different =/= better.

It might very well cut off major constellations, because it's a small pool of water in the middle of a forest, as opposed by a extraordinarily starlit valley
 
The stonehenge style thing is exactly what was described. You deliberately have to cut off sections of the sky to provide suitable frames of reference, but determining WHICH parts of the sky to cut off is non-trivial, leading to focusing on the same tracks as everyone else, following the paths of the sun and moon.

The Star Mirror gives us a different frame.
Why would it do that? Because the Mayans did it to show off?

The star mirror gives us the same frame, sunk into the ground.
 
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[X] [Conq] Take the northern lowlands (Thunder Speakers become vassal, Txolla annex additional territory, gain Ruined Thunder Horse as vassal, remainder fragment, -4 Econ and 4 temporary Econ damage from supporting wrecked vassal)
[X] [Refugee] Send out runners that you have food and intact farmland (6 temporary Econ damage, -6-8 Econ Expansion, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ next turn)
[X] [PttS] Black Mirror
[X] [PttS] 0 Stability
[X] [Diplo] Let's maybe spread out in case the gods throw another bolt (Found Far Northern Trade Post)
[X] [PSN] Bit more black soil (Sec Black Soil, -1 Centralization)
 
I think so, I don't really keep up with all of the calculations, but I'm sure people have been factoring it in.
Well, maybe it's the lack of sleep, but here's what I am getting:
11 EE, -14 from grow, +4 from help, +3 from TC, +8 from colonies, -8 from refuges, +2 from sec BS = 5 EE, so we even have place for the largest batch.
11 EE, -14 from grow, +4 from help. +3 from TC, +8 from colonies, -11 from refuges, +9 from main BS = 10 EE, which means that we won't even use colonies.
I am not sure how temp econ damage works with EE, really.
 
We are losing 14 econ expansion per turn due to BB + PE, and we are getting 3 back from True Cities.
Not quite. We are gaining 14 econ from BB+PE, and losing 3 from city upkeep, so therefore we only net 11. Of those 11, assuming we overflow, 3 are refunded by the True City effect, which means we only lose 8 in total. Note that we do have 2 provinces, so these numbers will probably be up to 16, 13, and 10 once our income is updated on the front page.
 
[X] [Conq] Take the northern lowlands (Thunder Speakers become vassal, Txolla annex additional territory, gain Ruined Thunder Horse as vassal, remainder fragment, -4 Econ and 4 temporary Econ damage from supporting wrecked vassal)
[X] [Refugee] Send out runners that you have food and intact farmland (6 temporary Econ damage, -6-8 Econ Expansion, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ next turn)
[X] [PttS] Black Mirror
[X] [PttS] 0 Stability
[X] [Diplo] Let's maybe spread out in case the gods throw another bolt (Found Far Northern Trade Post)
[X] [PSN] Bit more black soil (Sec Black Soil, -1 Centralization)
 
@Andres110, look I'm not trying to denigrate the mac intake of portray it as inherently bad, I just feel like a militarily controlled evacuation, on a foreign people speaking a different language no less, has far more room to turn into a clusterfuck than sending out runners to send word that there's a safe place for them in the heartlands.
 
Not quite. We are gaining 14 econ from BB+PE, and losing 3 from city upkeep, so therefore we only net 11. Of those 11, assuming we overflow, 3 are refunded by the True City effect, which means we only lose 8 in total. Note that we do have 2 provinces, so these numbers will probably be up to 16, 13, and 10 once our income is updated on the front page.
I didn't say econ though. I said econ expansion which is essentially a representation of the room for our newly born productive labor force to move into - aka econ.
 
I have to wonder why people are voting Black Mirror if it's in Horse Valley's description that it is the best place for stargazing that we have access to.
 
Western Wall needs eating i agree, but subordinate and Integrate our lowland vassal into a proper colony is more pressing. Txolla's size and potential power is becoming concerning. So vassal then Western Wall i say.
I don't mind biting off a chunk of Txolla instead; it does do a main and a secondary at this point, which means it has a biteable province. I would prefer to influence them first, though - and we don't exactly have the actions for that and everything else we want to do.
 
But a Golden Age immediately in the wake of this calamity would do far more to promote this in the Ymaryn group conscious, even from a perspective of helping others, than simply tanking our pop book and preventing an immediate GA would even if it's more refugees. To say nothing of the fact that the fewer refugees we take in, the less fall through the cracks and wind up just as abused and taken advantage of as before.

It sounds all well and good to pat ourselves on the back for going maximum refugee but like anything in life, it's nowhere near as clear cut as you suggest, even from a strict moral interpretation.

I'm fucking baffled after some of the screw ups we've had handling refugees before that absolutely no one has considered the potential issues of using a levied military to enact mass evacuation procedures in the fucking Iron Age, on a foreign people no less.

Let's ignore the risk of us unintentionally forcing people to come to Ymar proper, what do you think the message presented externally if right after the disaster there are massive, impoverished refugee coloumns flanked by military formations?

We can't look at things purely mechanically, nor can we look at them through a simplistic narrative lense either. We need to think about the implications behind such. I'll admit to a bit of paranoia here, and I don't think it would truly wind up going awful, but there seems a definite risk of misrepresentation, cultural clash and confusion, and simple lack of understanding of the entire issue.

State enforced evacuations are an entirely different beast then purely voluntary refugee intake, and we need to be careful when we make that step.
You make good points here and while I disagree with some of them, the others you've made have convinced me to switch my vote.

[X] [Refugee] Send out runners that you have food and intact farmland (6 temporary Econ damage, -6-8 Econ Expansion, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ next turn)
[X] [PSN] Bit more black soil (Sec Black Soil, -1 Centralization)

To say nothing of the fact that the fewer refugees we take in, the less fall through the cracks and wind up just as abused and taken advantage of as before.
This in particular is something I have to disagree with. It's factually correct, I'm not disputing that, but the spirit of it is misplaced. While refugees would indeed fall through the cracks, our cracks are - on average - a better place for them to be in than the post-apocalyptic famine-ridden hellhole their homes are soon about to become.
 
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I will also mention two very nice bonuses to Horse Valley. First, it can help link up the Thunder Speakers and parts of the east with our main provinces. Even as we integrate the Txolla people can migrate through Redhills into Stonepen, then south into Sacred Forest or North into the Stallions.

Second bonus is just the imagery. We get a big, badass temple right in the center of a great valley (cause where else would it go?). Buildings made from stone hauled from far away mines and wood chopped from far away forests. Sprawling fields where sacred herds graze upon the grass, wide trails well traveled by the pilgrims from the eastern, northern, and southern reaches of our Empire. As the sun crests over the horizon, light floods through the windows of the temple and onto the great artworks painted around the interior.
 



"Nee, Highlander-ku~n...we're still friends, right? You would never break my trust again...r̋̾ͬ͟i̷̴̶̿̈́̉̑ͮͪ̐g̷̀̄̎̂ͧ͛͌͛̂͜h̵̓̄ͣ̍̾ͩ͊͐ţ̿̌͘͠♥?"
This is... dementedly and gloriously accurate now.


[Mr. Burns voice]

Exxxxxxxxxceellllllent~

[Mr. Burns voice]

Muhahahahahahahhahahaha.
 
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 3857 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 96434-96703]
##### NetTally 1.9.9
Task: PSN
[27][PSN] Bit more black soil (Sec Black Soil, -1 Centralization)
[9][PSN] Lots more black soil (Main Black Soil, -2 Centralization)
[7][PSN] Keep it under control (Do not activate this turn)
[4][PSN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[3][PSN] Push forward forests (Sec Expand Forests, -1 Centralization)

Task: Conq
[45][Conq] Take the northern lowlands (Thunder Speakers become vassal, Txolla annex additional territory, gain Ruined Thunder Horse as vassal, remainder fragment, -4 Econ and 4 temporary Econ damage from supporting wrecked vassal)
[3][Conq] Push to the East (Gain all previously listed territories, forces actively fight with surviving Mountain Horse cities, -8 Econ and 8 temporary Econ damage from supporting wrecked vassals and distant war missions)
[3][Conq] Just the western parts (Thunder Speakers become vassal, Txolla annex additional territory, rest of the Thunder Horse fragment into desperate city states)
[3][Conq] The land is cursed, pull back (Thunder Speakers break away, rest of the Thunder Horse fragment into desperate city states)

Task: Refugee
[33][Refugee] Send out runners that you have food and intact farmland (6 temporary Econ damage, -6-8 Econ Expansion, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ next turn)
[20][Refugee] Use the military to evacutate as many as possible (8 temporary Econ damage, -9-11 Econ Expansion, -2 Stability, chance of further loss, +9-11 Econ next turn, incompatible with most ambitious conquest option)

Task: PttS
[43][PttS] 0 Stability
[28][PttS] Black Mirror
[23][PttS] Horse Valley
[1][PttS] 1 Stability

Task: Diplo
[24][Diplo] Send out reassurances (Sec Trade Mission to Khemetri, Trelli, and Harmurri)
[24][Diplo] Let's maybe spread out in case the gods throw another bolt (Found Far Northern Trade Post)
[9][Diplo] Victory lap (Main Salt Gift)
[1][Diplo] Stay home, write panic driven poetry (Main Build Theatre)
Total No. of Voters: 60

Still have 70 voters and at least another 12 hours to go...
 

Right now they are loyal, but they are a different cultural with different agenda. So them getting more power and room of growth is a very dangerous thing in the long run. Txolla can start developing their own ideas and tech once they absorbed all we are willing to share, and they can afford development thanks to the fertile lowland.
 
You make good points here and while I disagree with some of them, the others you've made have convinced me to switch my vote.

[X] [Refugee] Send out runners that you have food and intact farmland (6 temporary Econ damage, -6-8 Econ Expansion, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ next turn)
[X] [PSN] Bit more black soil (Sec Black Soil, -1 Centralization)


This in particular is something I have to disagree with. It's factually correct, I'm not disputing that, but the spirit of it is misplaced. While refugees would indeed fall through the cracks, our cracks are - on average - a better place for them to be than in the post-apocalyptic famine-ridden hellhole their homes are soon about to become.
Fair enough, although I will point out given Northern is winning, the Ymaryn will be doing a fair amount of reconstruction in formerly Thunderhorse territory, so it's not as if even those who don't evacuate are being totally abandoned either.
 
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