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Paths of Civilization

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maximillian said:
3: if a hypothetical crime syndicate ends up taking over redshore somehow, then problem solved. The criminal enterprise is now legal and taxable, furthermore the city has all the knowhow and resources to exterminate all crime and shady businesses, legal mafia is brutally efficient at eliminating crime no matter how well hidden
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Ah, the Havelock Vetinari approach
 
DocMatoi said:
Cosmopolitan acceptance says they'd be happy to see people from other lands come to ours.
We as a society don't have this weird cultural arrogance that you seem to prize
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We don't know how our best warriors feel about other warriors. And the khemtri definitely see themselves as God's gift to me earth. Never mind the other civ.
 
maximillian said:
Thats modern logic, to the bronze Age just being in the same of compitition as your inferiors is insulting to the extreme.
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Max, I cannot think of one time when a prediction you've made about in quest people has been true. Cite some kind of source or admit that you're just pulling things out of your ass
 
I ben think, if Path of Wanderers in the start we could probably have had the option tomigrated west to the balkan or the german forests
 
Alright, history sheet is updated (see my sig for the link). We are up to 994 old-secondary actions to date. Guild Mercantile has fully compensated for losing the Stallions, so we're still running 54-56 old-secondaries per turn. The format of the sheet is drastically improved; much easier to use now.

On that note... we need to start getting more subordinates. From what I can tell, trading posts are the least controversial action-granting subordinate, so it's about time for a northern and khemetri (if we can) TP.

Colonies also seem to be pretty chill, so if we had anywhere to colonize... but we already control pretty much all of the Black sea aside from what Trelli controls.

We need one slot for an HK vassal. Frankly, they're too small to be relevant any more, and we're too early for them to start acting like a small neighbor. They're still trying to be big-man-on-the-block, and that's really problematic given their position.

On the plus side, we know the land they took from Hathatyn back in the day was rich in tin. Maybe we'll get Leading in Tin?

I want another march to the north, but I don't expect enough support for that... I see the Stallions as a great success, and well worth the handful of issues they caused. (Many of those issues, IMO, were simply because they were our first subordinate state and we didn't know how to handle them.) On top of that, nomads are about to hit hard mode, and the QUEST just switched to hard mode. More non-king actions devoted to defense could be very handy.
 
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maximillian said:
1: we don't even know if it's a criminal enterprise or a serious of unfortunate events coupled with administrative problems.

2: the city can handle its own crime problem if given the authority to do so.

2.5 as a free city it will be more likely to innovate which is useful on its own, but will depend on local circumstances, so we may see the development of more advanced crime countering apparatus.

3: if a hypothetical crime syndicate ends up taking over redshore somehow, then problem solved. The criminal enterprise is now legal and taxable, furthermore the city has all the knowhow and resources to exterminate all crime and shady businesses, legal mafia is brutally efficient at eliminating crime no matter how well hidden.
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1. Even our Heroic Admins investigation is starting to think it's true and we've had repeated hints that there is a Shadow King in Play.
2. The city obviously can't handle it's shit even with the crown backing it up. What makes you think removing some of it's support and outside resources will make them more able to stop the corruption in their city, their city being a basis for said corruption more so than most.
2.5 We 'may see'. You're willing to bet that the city, with reduced Crown support might rise to the occasion when there is a noticeable chance it may just be taken over by crime. Yeah no, I'm not potentially sacrificing a city for a maybe
3. And that criminal enterprise is now able to do whatever the fuck it wants in the open. You remember the last time we let the system be abused and corrupted? Imagine that for a whole city, our main harbour and trade hub. I'm not letting that happen. I'm not letting criminals win as you are advocating because that just leads to the laws being flaunted and people being abused.
pblur said:
I still think the 'Shadow King' is mostly a matter of unreliable narrator speculation. I'm confident we do have multiple criminal organizations at this point, along with foreign intrigue and sabotage. The notion of a single Shadow King running everything is quite unlikely, IMO.

Again, everything we've heard about a shadow king since Rulwyna II has been from unreliable narrators.
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It still might be there. And our king did receive the information about the Highlands from some unknown agent, who didn't reveal themselves. The fact that there is just as much a chance that there is a Shadow King as there is a chance he's fake makes me wary of risking it personally.
 
[X] [Inv] Trelli
[X] [Inv] Thunder Horse
[X] [Inv] Swamp Folk
[X] [Inv] Metal Workers
[X] [Inv] Storm Wolves

[X] [WB] Upgrade Cosmopolitan Acceptance

[X] No

[X] [King] Hertythn (Heroic Admin, Average Diplo, Poor Martial; takes control while alive (1, possibly 2 turns))
 
pblur said:
Alright, history sheet is updated (see my sig for the link). We are up to 994 old-secondary actions to date. Guild Mercantile has fully compensated for losing the Stallions, so we're still running 54-56 old-secondaries per turn. The format of the sheet is drastically improved; much easier to use now.

On that note... we need to start getting more subordinates. From what I can tell, trading posts are the least controversial action-granting subordinate, so it's about time for a northern and khemetri (if we can) TP.

Colonies also seem to be pretty chill, so if we had anywhere to colonize... but we already control pretty much all of the Black sea aside from what Trelli controls.

We need one slot for an HK vassal. Frankly, they're too small to be relevant any more, and we're too early for them to start acting like a small neighbor. They're still trying to be big-man-on-the-block, and that's really problematic given their position.

On the plus side, we know the land they took from Hathatyn back in the day was rich in tin. Maybe we'll get Leading in Tin?

I want another march to the north, but I don't expect enough support for that... I see the Stallions as a great success, and well worth the handful of issues they caused. (Many of those issues, IMO, were simply because they were our first subordinate state and we didn't know how to handle them.) On top of that, nomads are about to hit hard mode, and the QUEST just switched to hard mode. More non-king actions devoted to defense could be very handy.
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I would fully support a new northern march.
 
pblur said:
I want another march to the north, but I don't expect enough support for that...
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tenchifew said:
I would fully support a new northern march.
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We need to leave it for at least another few turns to finish digesting the stallions. They were integrated at the end of last turn, and we were told to avoid founding a new march for 3 turns if we didn't want the Stallions' more extreme cultural elements showing up in the new March.
 
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DocMatoi said:
Max, I cannot think of one time when a prediction you've made about in quest people has been true. Cite some kind of source or admit that you're just pulling things out of your ass
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Eh, I had a few correct predictions, Phygrif election and the we will end with guild if we don't take geographic for example. The false predictions I admitted before such as not killing the mad man would create a disaster, and they were due to dice and the thread utter refusal to follow historical models.

As for bronze Age intricacies on social standing and worth and interaction with lessers, I don't know much Admittedly, am just basing it on what I know of the early Romans and proceeding civs.
 
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PrimalShadow said:
We need to leave it for at least another few turns to finish digesting the stallions. They were integrated at the end of last turn, and we were told to avoid founding a new march for 3 turns if we didn't want the Stallions' more extreme cultural elements showing up in the new March.
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  1. I've never really heard a good argument for why the Stallion's cultural divergence mattered (aside from people who have moral objections to their specific culture of course; those are good arguments, but I don't share those people's moral system.)
  2. AN said that the more extreme elements would just go to the hawks.
Still, getting a march up 3 turns from now is better than I expect from us. Too many people don't like the idea of subordinates at all, and especially not military ones. (aside from mercs, of course.)
 
pblur said:
  1. I've never really heard a good argument for why the Stallion's cultural divergence mattered (aside from people who have moral objections to their specific culture of course; those are good arguments, but I don't share those people's moral system.)
  2. AN said that the more extreme elements would just go to the hawks.
Still, getting a march up 3 turns from now is better than I expect from us. Too many people don't like the idea of subordinates at all, and especially not military ones. (aside from mercs, of course.)
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Cultural divergence means it's another source of tension and dissatisfaction between the core and the periphery. I happen to think we really need to start performing Influence Subordinate actions on Txolla, because otherwise it's begging for them to look to go separatist at the worst possible time.
 
McLuvin said:
1. Even our Heroic Admins investigation is starting to think it's true and we've had repeated hints that there is a Shadow King in Play.
2. The city obviously can't handle it's shit even with the crown backing it up. What makes you think removing some of it's support and outside resources will make them more able to stop the corruption in their city, their city being a basis for said corruption more so than most.
2.5 We 'may see'. You're willing to bet that the city, with reduced Crown support might rise to the occasion when there is a noticeable chance it may just be taken over by crime. Yeah no, I'm not potentially sacrificing a city for a maybe
3. And that criminal enterprise is now able to do whatever the fuck it wants in the open. You remember the last time we let the system be abused and corrupted? Imagine that for a whole city, our main harbour and trade hub. I'm not letting that happen. I'm not letting criminals win as you are advocating because that just leads to the laws being flaunted and people being abused.

It still might be there. And our king did receive the information about the Highlands from some unknown agent, who didn't reveal themselves. The fact that there is just as much a chance that there is a Shadow King as there is a chance he's fake makes me wary of risking it personally.
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Well the crown puts more restrictions than it gives support for once, and not having to go ask and wait for every decision to be made will do wonders with administrative effectiveness. And why the objection to legalising crime syndicates? The state itself is a legal criminal enterprise afterall, so why not reward competence and innovation by incorporating it into the existing enterprise; the state.
 
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PrimalShadow said:
"In use"? What does that mean?

Aqueducts give EE. This is true regardless of whether the Aqueduct is supporting infrastructure of some kind or another.
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Well, as I understand it, EE given by aqueducts represents availability of fresh water, which makes living in cities easier. But Redshore was already overcrowded, so aqueduct merely made it normal, and Redhills aqueduct was for industrial use only. If they don't give any new water, why would they give EE? Though, I may be wrong, of course.
 
Maxlevelsheep is actually a very insightful and intelligent poster. Saying he makes shit up doesn't behoove anyone.
 
maximillian said:
Well that crown puts more restrictions than it gives support for once, and not having to go ask an wait for every decision to be made will do wonders with administrative effectiveness.
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And it'll also do wonders for making corruption more efficient due to a lack of outside scrutiny and Royal watchdogs and counterbalances to the abuse of power and coin within the city
 
Godwinson said:
Cultural divergence means it's another source of tension and dissatisfaction between the core and the periphery. I happen to think we really need to start performing Influence Subordinate actions on Txolla, because otherwise it's begging for them to look to go separatist at the worst possible time.
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Oh, agreed about Txolla. Txolla started from a radically different place, and still has significantly more divergent values than the Stallions ever did. It's not a question of whether sufficient cultural divergence can be a problem. I'm just skeptical that the amount of divergence the stallions had was problematic.

For the most part, it looked to me like they had natural, healthy differences for a march. Ancestral Honor is bad in the main hierarchy of the system, because it increases a lot of the stratification of the elite (and the upside isn't huge for them.) But it's actually quite sensible in a march. You need heroic generals to hold the line against your foes, and you're sufficiently isolated from the reins of power that your stratification matters less.
 
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