So the Ymaryn have been developing medical knowledge for thousands of years. We have significant experience dealing with the effects of diseases on large populations. We even have a government funded dedicated public health sector. So what if we applied that knowledge offensively against the Trelli?

One of the most powerful weapons anyone could bring to bear against the great middle age cites was Biowarfare.

There is precedent for such action.

Antiquity[edit]

The earliest documented incident of the intention to use biological weapons is recorded in Hittite texts of 1500–1200 BC, in which victims of tularemia were driven into enemy lands, causing an epidemic.[1] Although the Assyrians knew of ergot, a parasitic fungus of rye which produces ergotism when ingested, there is no evidence that they poisoned enemy wells with the fungus, as has been claimed.
According to Homer's epic poems about the legendary Trojan War, the Iliad and the Odyssey, spears and arrows were tipped with poison. During the First Sacred War in Greece, in about 590 BC, Athens and the Amphictionic League poisoned the water supply of the besieged town of Kirrha (near Delphi) with the toxic plant hellebore.[2] During the 4th century BC Scythian archers tipped their arrow tips with snake venom, human blood, and animal feces to cause wounds to become infected.
In a naval battle against King Eumenes of Pergamon in 184 BC, Hannibal of Carthage had clay pots filled with venomous snakes and instructed his sailors to throw them onto the decks of enemy ships.[3] The Roman commander Manius Aquillius poisoned the wells of besieged enemy cities in about 130 BC. In about AD 198, the Parthian city of Hatra (near Mosul, Iraq) repulsed the Roman army led by Septimius Severus by hurling clay pots filled with live scorpions at them.[4]
There are numerous other instances of the use of plant toxins, venoms, and other poisonous substances to create biological weapons in antiquity.[5]

 
I apologise I forgot, so your other points first will the trelli attack us to avoid losing access to our stuff I believe yes keep in mind bronze is the metal for this age and we are going to be blocking their access to the rarest component of that metal we do not know the difference between strategic and luxury resources except strategic resources are better so
Much like with the Trelli it's not that simple, it's a 'is it worth the risk' deal here.

If the Trelli go to war they are economically crippled as they lose a 5 Dominant Trade partner and now have to try and afford all their Mercs without that, not even mentioning their disruption in trade from us will hurt their southern trade capabilities as well. Then there's the fact we aren't outright blocking them from something they need, just becoming the middle man all of a sudden. So they have a choice, go to war over us becoming the middle man, go to war against a large powerful empire they rely on for much of their wealth (note their military runs off their wealth) or Nut up and take it and face no detriments unless they fuck with us.
And you still think the trelli will not go to war for that?
Not if it's too risky for their survival, which it is. If they lose they die outright, if they win their economy is crippled anyway. It's a lose lose.
The mercenaries they have are divided into those that take slaves and those that are off earning wealth they can quite easily field the former against us plusthey have said mercenares familes' hostage. Also you over estimate the red banners they are good yes but they cannot fight without support.
All mercenaries cost wealth to maintain, even the super loyal Red Banner, a homegrown culturally similar group affected by Vassal Lords and Lords Loyalty.
Their mercs are mainly foreigners and local tribes.
And yes, I'd pit the Red Banners superior tactics, armements and discipline against the might of Trelli, note that if it was just Trelli and its armies and not the hired tribes AN said they alone could probably take them!
 
So the Ymaryn have been developing medical knowledge for thousands of years. We have significant experience dealing with the effects of diseases on large populations. We even have a government funded dedicated public health sector. So what if we applied that knowledge offensively against the Trelli?

One of the most powerful weapons anyone could bring to bear against the great middle age cites was Biowarfare.

There is precedent for such action.

[/sup]

The Ymaryn would not condone use of biowarfare. If anybody is stupid enough to do it, the entire Ymaryn society will burn that civilization down to the ground.
 
So the Ymaryn have been developing medical knowledge for thousands of years. We have significant experience dealing with the effects of diseases on large populations. We even have a government funded dedicated public health sector. So what if we applied that knowledge offensively against the Trelli?
One of the most powerful weapons anyone could bring to bear against the great middle age cites was Biowarfare.
There is precedent for such action.
[/sup]

Our traits sadly will go berserk and - stability.

@BungieONI @pblur

I'm noting on the record, on this day of 14 July 2017; that I VoidZero is now not the only one who is insane.

@Concho117

For your reference. :p
Topic of cow
Topic of Peat
 
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So the Ymaryn have been developing medical knowledge for thousands of years. We have significant experience dealing with the effects of diseases on large populations. We even have a government funded dedicated public health sector. So what if we applied that knowledge offensively against the Trelli?

One of the most powerful weapons anyone could bring to bear against the great middle age cites was Biowarfare.

There is precedent for such action.

[/sup]
Just no. Not just because it's evil. And not just because it's significantly against our traits.

Epidemics are not tame demons we can order about as we will. They nearly always bite the hand that wields them.
 
Thing is we have no undefended settlement our people are our reserve force so while they may not be able to beat pirates they can stall them for long enough that our army can attack
We have plenty of un-walled, un- watchtowered settlements.

Don't think of this as the Norse attacking London, or Berber Corsairs attackibg Lisboa. Think of this as them attacking farming communities and fishing villages. We don't have the infrastucture to hold them off, nor inform our local armies that the attack has ocurred until long after the pirates have taken everything they want and left.

There is a reason why Spain, one of the most powerful nations in the world at the time, paid the Berbers tribute.
 
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So the Ymaryn have been developing medical knowledge for thousands of years. We have significant experience dealing with the effects of diseases on large populations. We even have a government funded dedicated public health sector. So what if we applied that knowledge offensively against the Trelli?

One of the most powerful weapons anyone could bring to bear against the great middle age cites was Biowarfare.

There is precedent for such action.

[/sup]
Oohhhhh boy.

Hahahahaha, yeah, that's phyisically immpossible for the Ymaryn to contemplate doing outside of the very worst Exterminatus scenarios.


To put it into perspective, AN said shortly after we gave the cholera cure(and thus the means through which it spread) out, that if anyone did that and we heard about it the Ymaryn would annihilate them. Like literally the next vote would be [] Push the button or [] Let's hold up for a second. It spits on basically all of their values.


Just no. Not just because it's evil. And not just because it's significantly against our traits.

Epidemics are not tame demons we can order about as we will. They nearly always bite the hand that wields them.
This too.


I'm noting on the record, on this day of 14 July 2017; that I VoidZero is now not the only one who is insane.
Aww thank you. Not quite sure what you mean in reference too, but okay! :D
 
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Number one- if we actually DO cut out the supply of tin entirely don't expect the Not!Egyptians to stand idly and wait seventy five years for it to resume. Excellent chance they'd loan the Trelli a bunch of armies to get that supply going again. We could try an end-run around the Trelli in some way, maybe try to get through and gift the Not!Egyptians a bunch of tin to prevent that happening, but it's a serious problem.
Or they could bitch slap the Trelli for getting in the way with their petty wars, after all they are a closer target, that is if they even have the logistics to get there in the first place, which is unlikely.
I'm thinking the chances that any Ymaryn war prisoner can be tortured into giving some hints is uncomfortably high
They'd have to take the Trade Post completely to gain access to it, we keep our smiths hidden behind walls, it's why The Highlanders had to try and overrun us quickly when they attacked Redhills, and why they didn't gain Iron despite stalemating, furthermore they can learn how to mould iron from our iron smiths, but not how to locate it or how to properly mine it. Leaving them needing more time then they have to get a working Iron mine replacement up, it took us a good 50 years with all our knowledge and research to get it all set up, that with our whole kingdom to search and work with, they have one city surrounded by slave raiding tribes only loyal because of the pay. Their economy would start to collapse before they fully die, they'd need to get everything with Iron sorted out in 50 years or so otherwise they suddenly have a lot of pissed of Tribes at their front door, and that's not including the sudden hit losing our trade would cause
 
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Number two- what DOES happen to Bronze Age civs who run out of Bronze? They learn to use iron. Normally that would be a really, really, really difficult proposal, but when we've been using it for the last couple centuries I'm thinking the chances that any Ymaryn war prisoner can be tortured into giving some hints is uncomfortably high. And the hardest part of doing anything is knowing it can be done- seriously, in this case, all it takes is kidnapping one of thousands of people from a huge-ass stretch of possible targets. Snatching a smith from the Western Wall or Hathatyn province would be far from impossible.

While this is true, the Trelli are also a city state. It's going to be harder for them to find a source of iron and set up infrastructure to exploit it than many other civs, due to the low land area they control.
 
You're literally just removing matters, which is what our sun is doing anyway. I never heard of it potentially causing a ka-boom.
Yeah but it makes the star less likely to go boom because it will possess less matter to contract. Or something. Idr.
We could instead go for innovation options that obsoletes slavery and move towards serf or small land owner economy. Better and easier farming tools and methods or creating demand for larger scale trade good exchange.

Slaves are not as productive as free people with wildly available tools.
Moar Mill
 
Or they could bitchslapbtge Trelli for getting in the way with heir petty wars, that is if they even have the logistics to get there in the first place, which is unlikely.

They'd have to take the Trade Post completely to gain access to it, we keep our smiths hidden behind walls, it's why The Highlanders had to try and overrun us quickly when they attacked Redhills, and why they didn't gain Idon despite stalemating, furthermore they can learn how to mound iron from our iron smiths, but not how to locate it or how to properly mine it. Leaving them needing more time then they have to get a working Iron mine replacement up, it took us a good 50 years with all our knowledge and research to get it all set up, that with our whole kingdom to search and work with, they have one city surrounded by slave raiding tribes only loyal because of the pay. Their economy starts to collapse before they fully die, they'd need to get everything with Iron sorted out in 50 years or so otherwise they suddenly have a lot of pissed of Tribes at their front door, and that's not including the sudden hit losing our trade would cause
How many iron smiths would a trading post have? I mean, you'd need a basic hammer and anvil+file to fix nicks in weapons and tools, but that's no different tech than is used to work copper.
 
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How many iron smiths would a trading post have? I mean, you'd need a basic hammer and anvil+file to fix nicks in weapons and tools, but that's no different tech than is used to work copper.
Red Banner could have an attachment of smiths following them, I think there were hints of that during the Lowlands campaigns but it wasn't outright stated
 
They'd have to take the Trade Post completely to gain access to it, we keep our smiths hidden behind walls, it's why The Highlanders had to try and overrun us quickly when they attacked Redhills, and why they didn't gain Iron despite stalemating, furthermore they can learn how to mould iron from our iron smiths, but not how to locate it or how to properly mine it.
...Yeah, they can learn from pretty much any Ymaryn captive that iron exists and it's a thing that most serious Ymaryn smiths can create. At that point, it really only takes a targeted raid on the Western Wall or Hathatyn province or any of our other lightly-defended villages that don't have a mercenary in them to snag a smith.

Given the excellent level of education and general knowledge floating about our civ due to social values, it's quite likely that any major armorer or weaponsmith will know something about locating it and mining iron as well as shaping it- and let's be serious, once you know what iron deposits look like finding them is stupidly easy. If you're willing to kill a bunch of slaves getting it out of the ground and cooking the hell out of it, it's not rocket science. The hard part is knowing it can be done.

Now, can we hurt the Trelli by cutting them off from bronze for a turn or two? Probably. But it's not like bronze rusts the way iron does and the Trelli are rich as shit. Unless we conquer them outright, dismissing a few mercenary armies and impacting their bottom line will bother them but not break them- and if they get the secret of iron, all of a sudden the world is their fucking oyster because they won't hesitate to trade the shit out of that stuff.
 
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Red Banner could have an attachment of smiths following them, I think there were hints of that during the Lowlands campaigns but it wasn't outright stated
I guess I'm asking how much capability those smiths have, and how it differs from copper smithing. I mean, the thunder horse smithed meteoric steel into the Star Axe a long time ago. Iron is even cold workable.

I'd guess the only non-copper 'tech' our field smiths use is a charcoal fire to heat the iron.
 
Basically this is drakes equation:

Chance of defeat = chance they declare war*chance they blockade*chance they devote all mercs*chance we don't have or develop blockade runners*'pretty dicey'

My estimates are:

30%*50%*90%*20%*30%=0.8% chance of failure.

Feel free to share your estimates for each component.
They don't need to blockade us if they bring 5 extra armies with them. And if we threaten a strategic resource, I'd rate that probability much higher than 30%.
 
it's a thing that most major Ymaryn smiths can create.
Why do you think this? It requires specialized equipment that no actual smithing does, and it's generally done before shipping away from the mine. (We just got WoG that metal is typically shipped in ingots. Which makes sense, since it's a lot more compact than ore.)

I'd guess most smiths have never seen smelting.
 
...Yeah, they can learn from pretty much any Ymaryn captive that iron exists and it's a thing that most major Ymaryn smiths can create. At that point, it really only takes a targeted raid on the Western Wall or Hathatyn province or any of our other lightly-defended villages that don't have a mercenary in them to snag a smith.

Western Wall and Hathatyn both have walls and a healthy amount of martial due to their past as Marches and history of warfare. Pretty much every time Western Wall builds settlements it also builds walls.
 
They don't need to blockade us if they bring 5 extra armies with them. And if we threaten a strategic resource, I'd rate that probability much higher than 30%.
Per WoG it only gets dicey if they blockade us. In a straight land battle our scorpions hilariously outmatch any force they could bring against us.
 
...Yeah, they can learn from pretty much any Ymaryn captive that iron exists and it's a thing that most serious Ymaryn smiths can create. At that point, it really only takes a targeted raid on the Western Wall or Hathatyn province or any of our other lightly-defended villages that don't have a mercenary in them to snag a smith.

Given the excellent level of education and general knowledge floating about our civ due to social values, it's quite likely that any major armorer or weaponsmith will know something about locating it and mining it as well- and let's be serious, once you know what iron deposits look like finding them is stupidly easy.

Now, can we hurt the Trelli by cutting them off from bronze for a turn or two? Probably. But it's not like bronze rusts the way iron does and the Trelli are rich as shit. Unless we conquer them outright, dismissing a few mercenary armies and impacting their bottom line will bother them but not break them- and if they get the secret of iron, all of a sudden the world is their fucking oyster because they won't hesitate to trade the shit out of that stuff.
So are you just ignoring the outright invasion of Redhills (our most major Iron Province) and how the Highlanders, despite initial success, failed to gain any Iron whatsoever from that?

If we are ignoring that tell me so I can debate on the same wavelength.

Also note this please.
We learned later that the smiths would not be enough to develop iron tech in the short run.

They'd also need smelters and miners.
This is you being directly proven wrong Az, so if you could stop your fear mongering please that'd be great.

Also thanks for the quote Rakuhn, it helped.
 
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What chance of losing do you give us if we fail to break the blockade?
That depends on the number of turns it takes us to break it and what we are classifying as a loss. If we fail entirely? Likely 60% chance of losing in some form. We require a lot of seaborne communication. However, they can't stop riverine trade and communication, so there's that.
Arbitrary? The drake equation is a pretty useful tool for doing estimates.

Yeah but those percentage estimates are entirely arbitrary. We have no idea of the chance on any of those at all. Just some mildly educated guesses. So, thus, arbitrary.
 
Oohhhhh boy.

Hahahahaha, yeah, that's phyisically immpossible for the Ymaryn to contemplate doing outside of the very worst Exterminatus scenarios.


To put it into perspective, AN said shortly after we gave the cholera cure(and thus the means through which it spread) out, that if anyone did that and we heard about it the Ymaryn would annihilate them. Like literally the next vote would be [] Push the button or [] Let's hold up for a second. It spits on basically all of their values.



This too.



Aww thank you. Not quite sure what you mean in reference too, but okay! :D

Which values in particular?

I see alot of values that would trigger on Environmental Damage but nothing that would trigger on Pandemics. I believe a case can be made that a smallpox outbreak would not be considered environmentally harmful as it primarily targets people. It might actually help the environment by reducing pollution and forest depletion. Then there is also the 'nuclear bomb' justification that attacking now with weapons of mass destruction will reduce casualties later on in the event of an invasion.

Also could you link to Academia Nut's post on that? I couldn't find it.

If straight Biological Warfare is out of the question, what about targeted sabotage of things like food and water, or maybe strategic resources like burning warehouses or dry docks? Anything that might soften them up before direct engagement would be beneficial.
 
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