BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Which is why I consider it the Shit Option. But overarching action concerns and resources said to me we had to take it over the others.
Thus.
Bleh.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
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- Original
Thus.
Bleh.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
- Location
- United States
[X] [Loc] Redshore
[X] Great Hall Expansion
[X] Shrine
[X] Library
[X] Library x2
[X] Storehouse
So, my reasoning for the annexes are as follows:
Edit: I should mention that we should look to build a garden soonish after the crisis is over, as having our healers have access to a personal garden holding medicinal plants would be very useful.
[X] Great Hall Expansion
[X] Shrine
[X] Library
[X] Library x2
[X] Storehouse
So, my reasoning for the annexes are as follows:
- The Great Hall will go a long way to accommodating the delegates that will flood in from other provinces trying to curry favor.
- The library/shrine are obvious.
- The store house is essential for any palace, though a double store house isn't necessary as the palace is already close to public storehouses.
Edit: I should mention that we should look to build a garden soonish after the crisis is over, as having our healers have access to a personal garden holding medicinal plants would be very useful.
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
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- ꙮ
it has road connections to the north and south, the only thing it's bad for are sea connections
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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Interesting thing to note is that this equates to about 100ish updates and since the last tax crisis was about 47 updates ago we should have two more to go through after this one before we get there.
The joys of being nigh Immortal.
Um. Even if we accept that for the long term Valleyhome is poorly placed (which I do not), a millenia is a LONG FREAKING TIME. We haven't even been playing for two millenia so far, and turns get shorter as we go, so this is looking forward the entire duration of this quest.
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It also adds another 2 [Main] actions and 8 econ because we really will need Redshore to become a True City. This will also lower our Centralization cap unless we want Valleyhome to become a Free City, possibly immediately putting us into the red.
Basically: Make do with a minimal Valleyhome Palace, then plan on taking over the Trelli and making a really awesome Palace a couple hundred years later.
Don't forget, we can get additional Annexes later at an extra cost of 1 Econ and 1 Art. It costs no extra actions. We're currently losing 1-3 Wealth/turn from the tax crisis, so it doesn't actually save us much at all to build them now.
The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
First, extra annexes later will cost 2 Econ and 2 Art. Second, they'd require people to vote to construct them, which they never will, because judging by Extended Projects they will in fact cost actions.
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- Staring into the void
If we're looking at time lengths that long, AN has already said we need to conquer the Trelli, and make that the capital.
1 Econ and 1 Art extra. 2 then - 1 now = 1 extra cost.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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There is a very good point that Redshore is going to be the beating heart of our logistics for the foreseeable future due to the sea. That is incredibly important and there is a valid criticism to be leveled at Valleyhome because it's land logistics network will not improve without massive effort, see the canal extension being thrown around, which is what I was talking about when I said it was the shit option.
However I am voting for it for the sake of expedience and crisis management. If I didn't think Redshore would blow up in our face before we could fix it then I'd go for that.
Outside of that logistics matter though, I do not consider it poorly placed, as I noted in my big ~effort~ post a few pages back. It's in broad strokes connected and reachable by everywhere, with a bias to the south and lowlands.
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- Staring into the void
@Academia Nut If our turns are slowly getting shorter due to our advances; would it be possible to have 1.5 turns to our neighbors 1?
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- United States of America, Michigan
Man I leave the thread alone because I didn't want to deal with the religion and vassal issues and when I try and catch up I find out you guys have literally made 100 new pages from where I left off. Sigh I guess at least there will be a lot to read and now back to page 2787.
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I looked through AN's comments and couldn't find anywhere stating that we could build more annexes later for 1 econ and 1 art? Unless I missed it in the update itself...
Taking over the Trelli's territory is going to take a very long time, especially considering we've almost completely ignored the Hathatyn area for a long time. You're also assuming in a few hundred years we won't be bogged down by other issues...that, somehow, we'll be free of any kind of crisis for a period of 10+ turns. Please remember that this is a thread by AN and that he thrives on chaos.
I'm also aware of the short-term issues building in Redshore would dig up, but I don't feel that an aqueduct can't wait 2-3 turns after the palace's completion.
On the subject of centralization, the palace would massively decrease admin strain on top of a probable admin tech upgrade. AN has said in a post that he's put in place two yellow warnings for the centralization stat, so our actual limit is still 5 (while redlining at 6).
Edit: just read you clarification that you mean't 1 econ and art extra. In that case, i'd argue that everyone would have to vote on those projects...which they will do....very slowly. Everyone has a certain direction they want us to head towards, so they probably won't agree on a lot of stuff.
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Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
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If i remember right, that post was "maybe X, maybe Y, or maybe even Z?", where "two yellow warnings" was Z. He also, if i remember correctly, said that even asingle extra trails (and thus centralization) would be very dangerous, and said that literally all of our centralization scores are yellow or red now. So while i think we've got 2 warnings now, i also think right now we're at the last yellow before red... So i think we shouldn't touch it until we finish the palace, unless we finally make sacred forest a free city and free up a tolerance.
I'll grab the quote in a second, but he's said we can build them for 2 econ and 2 art (and 1 main action), which is 1 econ/1 art "extra", compared to doing them now, when it costs 1 of each, and a main action.
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AN said that explosives were only one way to do it. The other way is to have tens of thousands of workers working at it. We have enough spare population that this is something we can actually do.
The word 'extra' is an important one there.
Our current cost is 1 Econ and 1 Art.
What are you talking about? We're actively and fairly rapidly expanding into that area via Hatvalley, and Greenshore is about to become a major True City. It's still a long ways off, but it's still useful and we should do it since otherwise we'll be basically landlocked.
Sure, if you don't mind people starting to die in the streets due to overcrowding and a lack of running water. That's the Xoh way after all.
Sure, probably, once it's done. And that's projected to take 3-4 turns to complete anyway (5-7 more main actions for the 3 annex palace, 7-9 for your version)
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- United States
Yeah, just dug up the quote.
While the cap has changed many times in the past, he doesn't say it changed recently. The 2 yellow warning system would be a bit redundant if we were at the last yellow anyways, so I think it's safe to assume we're at the first yellow warning,
@Academia Nut t Can you confirm that we're on the 1st yellow warning for centralization?
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
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- He/Him
I think the only extended project we're getting out of this is the palace annexes; we might eventually get a "move/replace palace" or "make seasonal palace" option, but not right away i think...the whole point conceptually for the Grand Palace is to concentrate administrative work, not to spread it out after all.
Here are the quotes:
Of note, that first quote can be read either as "it's possible that [the cap has changed..., and you have a two yellow warning this time]", or as "it's possible that [the cap has changed...], and also (as a separate thought from "possible" you have a two yellow warning this time"
Fake Edit: just remembered the "one more centralization bad" bit:
So whether the next number is yellow or red, we don't want to see it
I read that as "throw tens of thousands of people in terms of casualties in a major engineering project", especially since from what i recall even up through the 20th century major engineering projects had hundreds or thousands of dead as a consequence of making them. Also, while we have a lot of population, we still have in excess of 90% of them busy with primary food production, and another 5%+ tied up in being warriors, clerks, or priests, so even if we have between 500,000 and 1,000,000 People, we don't have that much spare population, i don't think...
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
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- ꙮ
make a minimal valleyhome palace, start expanding in the lowlands and vassalize + incorporate the HK, then expand along hat-land until we hit the trell and then make a new palace there.
I.e., make our base safe by conquering the lowlands then turn the land otw to the sea safe.
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Would you mind expanding on this point? It's my understanding that internal stores are included and these stores are about supply distribution to those who don't work in the Palace, or for weathering a siege - I don't view these latter purposes, which the annex goes to, as essential, so I'm curious why you do or if you disagree as to the annex's purpose.
Here is a thought. We've been talking about the time-cost in the abstract, but why don't we take a moment to concretize it?
Right now, two additional annexes would cost 2 mains and 4 resources. Maining Proclaim Glory + Restoration of Order would also take 2 mains and 4 resources, and it is enough to get us an average of +2.5 stability. If we do it right after integrating the stallions, we should have at least two stats maxed, which may very well mean that we'd be going into a golden age, at least if our stability was non-negative before we used the PG+RO.
So, think of it this way. Are two extra annexes valuable enough to give up a golden age and 2+ stability?
Right now, two additional annexes would cost 2 mains and 4 resources. Maining Proclaim Glory + Restoration of Order would also take 2 mains and 4 resources, and it is enough to get us an average of +2.5 stability. If we do it right after integrating the stallions, we should have at least two stats maxed, which may very well mean that we'd be going into a golden age, at least if our stability was non-negative before we used the PG+RO.
So, think of it this way. Are two extra annexes valuable enough to give up a golden age and 2+ stability?
- Location
- United States
Looking at our recently updated map, our colony isn't grabbing that much land...so while it might have the appearance of it just from looking at their actions, our civ is quite dense and doesn't really sprawl like other civs do. So yeah, it's gonna take awhile to grab the rest of it (or just the majority.
What does Greenshore becoming a true city have to do with that anyways? It is nowhere near the Hathatyn region.
So you're stating that our people are going to die from overcrowding and lack of running water...and comparing it to how the Xoh operate (and implying that i'm like them, which is very rude). RedShore isn't nearly as heavily populated as a true city, so your statement is explicitly false.
It just seems like you're downplaying my reasons and inflating the negatives here. I'm not sure why you got this sudden shift in tone, but i'm not interested in discussing this further if you're going to act like this.