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Paths of Civilization

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Candesce said:
As to the shrine vote - we didn't give them their own city, so the priests get a shrine in the Palace. Not negotiating on this. Doesn't need to be a large one, though.
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Well, it's not like they're entitled to their own city! So that reasoning is strange.


pblur said:
Might I persuade you to include a store house? It explicitly will help with our admin problems...
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Hmm...

This, combined with:

ctulhuslp said:
GUUUUYS

Why do you vote for odd numbers of annexes? We have double Mains at use, using even steps - 2,4,6 - is logical.
Like, due to double Mains there is literally no difference in time spent on building 1 and 2 annexes, or 3 and 4. None.
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and this:

Academia Nut said:
Also, important clarification: the 5-7 actions required for the palace includes the first annex, so you're not adding quite as many actions as I may have initially implied.
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AN's note means we SHOULD do UNEVEN numbers of annexes, actually (starting annex in the 5-7 actions, then double annexes). If I see that right. So one more annex to the two libraries would work.

[X] [Loc] Valleyhome
[X][Annex]Library
[X][Annex]Library x2
[x][Annex]Storehouse
 
Academia Nut said:
Also, important clarification: the 5-7 actions required for the palace includes the first annex, so you're not adding quite as many actions as I may have initially implied.
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Oh, sweet, that makes it slightly easier...
Forgothrax said:
[X] [Loc] Valleyhome
[X][Annex]Library
[X][Annex]Library x2

Again, people, THINK. We have multiple crises. We just learned that the Thunder Horse are pissed off at us so we've got another war on our hands that won't go away for at least a turn or two, so we won't be going onto megaproject support anytime soon. That means it's going to take a long-ass time to build the palace as it is. Build what's useful for administration (pair of libraries will do) and move on. There are lots of nice shinies here. None of them are useful for the purpose of keeping our civilization together except a few libraries.

Prioritize survival. Not shinies.
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You probably want the shrine, either way, since that explicitly is a major thing that causes political and religious stress if we don't build it
 
pblur said:
No, I really don't like the idea of putting it somewhere that requires land transport to the sea. I think that's really going to screw us later. ;)
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And I really think that spending the actions to build out Redshore is going to absolutely fuck us with what we have on our plate.

I also think you're completely disregarding the consequences of shifting the perceptions of the center of a society from a millennia old capital. People associate the king and the center of the people themselves with Valleyhome. That isn't an easy thing to change.

Getting the delegates to Redshore might be easier, but I doubt there is much more than a few weeks of transport time between Redshore and Valleyhome.

As for the Annex setup, I liked the idea of mingling the gardens with the great hall for an impressive setup. It is very Ymaryn, and would do a lot to display the image we want to project. The first five are the items I feel(or are mandated as) are necessary. Doubling up on shrine and library is a pretty reasonable set, I think, without going too overboard.

[X][Loc] Valleyhome
[X][Annex] Shrine
[X][Annex] Library
[X][Annex] Shrine x2
[X][Annex] Library x2
 
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Academia Nut said:
Also, important clarification: the 5-7 actions required for the palace includes the first annex, so you're not adding quite as many actions as I may have initially implied.
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Does that mean building 1 of everything puts action commitment at 9-12 range?


ETA50M said:
Guys it was stated plain as day that Redshore makes it easier for all our provices to send their delegates! We should also expand our Great Hall so each delegate will be able to sit in on the King's general proceedings. We can kickstart early democracy like this.
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General idea is good but hell no to early democracy, that would slow decision making process to a crawl. Or give us even more incompetent candidates.
 
pbluekan said:
And I really think that spending the actions to build out Redshore is going to absolutely fuck us with what we have on our plate.

I also think you're completely disregarding the consequences of shifting the perceptions of the center of a society from a millennia old capital. People associate the king and the center of the people themselves with Valleyhome. That isn't an easy thing to change.

Getting the delegates to Redshore might be easier, but I doubt there is much more than a few weeks of transport time between Redshore and Valleyhome.

As for the Annex setup, I liked the idea of mingling the gardens with the great hall for an impressive setup. It is very Ymaryn, and would do a lot to display the image we want to project. The first five are the items I feel(or are mandated as) are necessary. Doubling up on shrine and library is a pretty reasonable set, I think, without going too overboard.

[X][Loc] Valleyhome
[X][Annex] Shrine
[X][Annex] Great Hall Expansion
[X][Annex] Garden
[X][Annex] Library
[X][Annex] Storehouse
[X][Annex] Shrine x2
[X][Annex] Library x2
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...You know, if your main argument is that we can't spend the actions to build redshore out as a capital, then its a bit hypocritical to vote to add 6 main actions to our palace building, when we're in the middle of two wars, a tax crisis, and more, with low econ and our provinces eating at our wealth for the war...
 
Why? Just why are people voting for so much stuff?

All our centralization values are gold, the state is literally breaking apart under its own weight and we have a two front war and people want to make the palace take twice as much or more than was planed for.
 
pbluekan said:
And I really think that spending the actions to build out Redshore is going to absolutely fuck us with what we have on our plate.

I also think you're completely disregarding the consequences of shifting the perceptions of the center of a society from a millennia old capital. People associate the king and the center of the people themselves with Valleyhome. That isn't an easy thing to change.

Getting the delegates to Redshore might be easier, but I doubt there is much more than a few weeks of transport time between Redshore and Valleyhome.

As for the Annex setup, I liked the idea of mingling the gardens with the great hall for an impressive setup. It is very Ymaryn, and would do a lot to display the image we want to project. The first five are the items I feel(or are mandated as) are necessary. Doubling up on shrine and library is a pretty reasonable set, I think, without going too overboard.

[X][Loc] Valleyhome
[X][Annex] Shrine
[X][Annex] Great Hall Expansion
[X][Annex] Garden
[X][Annex] Library
[X][Annex] Storehouse
[X][Annex] Shrine x2
[X][Annex] Library x2
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dude, we can't afford to have that many actions in initial setup. That's at least 12 actions worth of stuff, with the commisurate econ and art cost. Try to pare that down to the essentials please
 
[] [Loc] Valleyhome
Switching to Valleyhome since (long term) we can dam + canal to mititgate Valleyhome's isolation.
If I can get anyone to build a dam... *sniff*

[] Shrine
[] Shrine x2
[] Library
[] Library x2
[] Storehouse

Doubling up on shrine now as well to probably get even turns, and to get a library+temple synergy.
 
The Sandman said:
I'd also want to build it at Redshore for both ease of transportation around our nation
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Keep in mind, if we absorb the lowland minors or the Highlanders, neither of those groups have easy access to Redshore. Not sure how much we care about that, though, and Redshore's certainly better if we want to seize the river systems on the far side of the Black Sea. Which we might want to do.

pblur said:
Also, interestingly, Greenshore is building an aqueduct. I didn't know it could do that...
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Yeah. Certainly something to keep an eye on - a True City means they've a lot more ability to break away.

Our ability to add annexes in the future is going to be somewhat dependent on what we've already done. Pretty sure adding gardens in will always be an option, so they don't need to be fitted into the rush-build, and fortifications are likely to have complicated relationships with expanding annexes, so the question is, what precedents need to be set from the very beginning.
 
@Academia Nut
Is 2x Library going to give us the Library refund?
Is 2x Shrine going to give us the bonuses that a normal full temple would provide?
The 5-7 actions is for the Living Areas and a single additional Annex, correct?
 
[X] [Loc] Redshore
[X] Shrine
[X] Shrine x2
[X] Library
[X] Library x2
By the old gods lets finaly go to sea and raid
 
The absolute minimum;

[ ] [Loc] Valleyhome

It is our current capital, while in the future it may be necessary to move it to our religious or trade province, it may not be. Personally I think we should keep the provincial specialisations as they are. Redshore risks increased merchant influence. Sacred Forest risks increased religious involvement in politics.

[ ] Great Hall Expansion
-too disruptive to expand later. It's use in diplomacy means we need it.
[ ] Shrine
-we need at least a basic shrine for the King. A full temple would be much better.
[ ] Library
[ ] Library x2
- Vital to have at least a double Library to keep important records available for the King and administrators. The bigger the better, but further expansion (Library x3 & x4) can be delayed if needed
[ ] Gardens
- like the shrine, it is a important part of our culture/spirituality and is important to be included in the initial construction.
 
pblur said:
[] [Loc] Valleyhome
Switching to Valleyhome since (long term) we can dam + canal to mititgate Valleyhome's isolation.
If I can get anyone to build a dam... *sniff*

[] Shrine
[] Shrine x2
[] Library
[] Library x2
[] Storehouse

Doubling up on shrine now as well to probably get even turns, and to get a library+temple synergy.
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I'm still wary of going more than 4 annexes to set up, since we still have to pay for them. I mean, we can expand the temple later if we want you know?
 
VoidZero said:
Does that mean building 1 of everything puts action commitment at 9-12 range?




General idea is good but hell no to early democracy, that would slow decision making process to a crawl. Or give us even more incompetent candidates.
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Eh our oligrachs will still wield the power and decision making but if we give off a veneer of democracy then it scales back genuis revolutionaries since they have a path to power. We still have non-familal patronage so it should work out fine.
 
Stay in Valleyhome. It requires the least work right now, and we can much later do river work to help make access to it easier.
 
TheDanishLord said:
[X] [Loc] Redshore
[X] Shrine
[X] Shrine x2
[X] Library
[X] Library x2
By the old gods lets finaly go to sea and raid
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You really should add a storehouse. It's not fair to go out and raid without providing a target for your enemies to raid. :p

And it would help our admin...
 
pbluekan said:
And I really think that spending the actions to build out Redshore is going to absolutely fuck us with what we have on our plate.

I also think you're completely disregarding the consequences of shifting the perceptions of the center of a society from a millennia old capital. People associate the king and the center of the people themselves with Valleyhome. That isn't an easy thing to change.

Getting the delegates to Redshore might be easier, but I doubt there is much more than a few weeks of transport time between Redshore and Valleyhome.

As for the Annex setup, I liked the idea of mingling the gardens with the great hall for an impressive setup. It is very Ymaryn, and would do a lot to display the image we want to project. The first five are the items I feel(or are mandated as) are necessary. Doubling up on shrine and library is a pretty reasonable set, I think, without going too overboard.

[X][Loc] Valleyhome
[X][Annex] Shrine
[X][Annex] Great Hall Expansion
[X][Annex] Garden
[X][Annex] Library
[X][Annex] Storehouse
[X][Annex] Shrine x2
[X][Annex] Library x2
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As far as I can see, it adds 3 turns due to how Double Mains work .

With the 3 annexes, we add only 1 turn. With 5 annexes, we add only 2 turns. @Academia Nut ,is it right or is it other way around? I cannot understand what did you mean by 'free' annex, sorry.
I think adding two turns (to the total of 10-12 actions = 5-6 turns, with 1 already done => 4-5) is worthwhile trade. 3 is too greedy.
[X][Loc] Valleyhome
[X][Annex] Shrine
[X][Annex] Garden
[X][Annex] Library
[X][Annex] Storehouse
[X][Annex] Library x2

This is a balanced option with admin emphasis. To cut it down to 3 actions, you can cut out Garden and Storehouse.
 
I don't get the desire for storerooms. Maybe if we were smaller, or if we were making it a fort, but we'll have enough trouble making a good administrative building.
Though maybe if it were a vault, helping to keep control of the Kingdom's money supply ... I know nothing about economics.

We're better off adding more libraries, or even a great hall extension.
 
[X] [Loc] Redshore

[X] Great Hall Expansion
[X] Great Hall Expansion x2
[X] Shrine
[X] Shrine x2
[X] Library
[X] Library x2
[X] Gardens
[X] Arsenal
 
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