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Paths of Civilization

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Academia Nut said:
Ehhh... well, the big issue is that Valleyhome will no longer be the defacto capital and thus you will have two non-capital True Cities. You will probably also have to get working on an aqueduct for Redshore fairly quickly as the presence of the palace will start moving the city towards being a True City via sheer overcrowding. However, it probably is a better location for the extreme long term.
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thought that might be the case... will we get another vote to make either sacred forest or valleyhome into a free city either in the same vote we can choose that, or in the next vote? Because i think if we did select redshore, we'd want to Free City valleyhome, especially since then we'd kind of have our three biggest cities (in the long term) be counterbalances--the King and Clerks in Redshore, the Priesthood in Sacred Forest, and the Guilds in Valleyhome. ...Then again, thats definitely something we'd want to ask many pointed questions of our advisors to gauge how safe it would be :p
To start...how dangerous does our admin advisor think making Redshore the capital, and Valleyhome a free city, would be?
Da Boyz said:
Valleyhome or Sacred Forest, wherever we put the palace is probably bound to become a True City sooner or later and for the time being two is all we can feasibly manage.
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We can always make one of them a free city... if we dont make redshore into the capital (which i'm still torn as to whether it'd be a good thing), i'd want us to make Redshore a Free City, both for power counterbalances, and for the fact that eventually a Free City on the coast would probably lead to a lot of boat innovation, especially since Free Cities are supposed to eventually get actions of their own after enough technological and societal development, iirc.
Academia Nut said:
Two 1s on two different rolls. That would activate either a significant bollide impact or a major volcanic event, enough either way to cause a serious climate disruption. There would then be a roll for overall severity and another for location. Four 1s there would result in a direct hit on your core, at which point the game would turn into a post apocalyptic struggle by survivors on the periphery.

Also, there is a distinct possibility under this system of a major bollide event striking a major geological system like a supervolcano or major faultline and setting it off.
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Ahh, interesting. So if i'm doing the probabilities right, thats... 297/10,000, or 2.97% chance of such an event (the general bollide or volcano event, not the quadruple 4 "fuck your capital" event) every turn (assuming those 3 "challenge" rolls are rolled once every main turn), not including the 0.01% chance of all three rolls. Considering there are likely way more things that can cause lesser but still major climate change, i think we'll end up quite glad to have the Sacred Forest Renewal project done, if we can thread our way through the current issues (though it seems like we've done a pretty good job of threading the needle in the time since you predicted a major upheaval if we weren't both smart and lucky?)
 
Ok, seriously guys, not putting the palace in valleyhome is absolutely ridiculous. There is absolutely no reason for that mechanically, as we've seen, as it would just make our centralization problem even worse, and no reason narratively. Who builds a palace for an elected king anywhere but the capital? It just doesn't make sense, especially when we have been preparing valleyhome for the role of an administrative center for years.

I get that people are worried about valleyhome prestige, but if that was the case then we shouldn't have.

Edit: Yes, ok @Academia Nut did say it would likely be beneficial in the extreme long term. The whole point of my post above was to hammer into your skulls that the absolute shitstorm we would place ourselves in in the meantime wouldn't be worth that benefit.

We would have an extra non capital city. That means -1 cent tolerance, something we can hardly afford from Sacred Forest as is.
We would have to spend time and actions prepping Redshore for the ability to function as a capital, which means Aqueduct, Library, Temples.
We would have to deal with the consequences of uprooting the traditional hub of our administration. Our people have looked to Valleyhome for millennia. There would absolutely be consequences for this.

Edit 2:
Building the palace in the south is going to upset northern tensions as is. If we compound that by building a whole shitload of infrastructure in another southern city, I think that might just ruffle some feathers.
 
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Susano said:
Which is exactly why we need to have the palace there. Keep in mind how centralized our system is. We need to have the king where there are the most concerns. Otherwise, that snake pit will develop a life on its own.

Valleyhome is our cultural and economical centre, full of issues that will need the king's and the central administration's attention. So putting the palace in Redshore will only create unnecessary communication lags.

Besides, snake pits are good. We want a balance of power between several factions at court, don't we? We don't want the king to be able to rule all by him/herself.
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Ya, Redshore is a better pick in the Very Long Term, but we currently have no way of sustaining 3 True Cities, and we would have to focus entirely on building up Redshore while building the Palace if we want it to be anywhere near as effective as it would have been in Valleyhome.

QUOTE="pblur, post: 8867238, member: 17733"]


AN just said it was better for long term administration...[/QUOTE]

AN said it would be better in the Extreme Long Term, likely because Redshore has better resources and geographic positioning for an Empire than Valleyhome does, but in the Short to Long Term, Valleyhome is better by far.

Please do not forget that we are still in a Crisis and can break if we do the wrong thing.
 
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pbluekan said:
Ok, seriously guys, not putting the palace in valleyhome is absolutely ridiculous. There is absolutely no reason for that mechanically, as we've seen, as it would just make our centralization problem even worse, and no reason narratively. Who builds a palace for an elected king anywhere but the capital? It just doesn't make sense, especially when we have been preparing valleyhome for the role of an administrative center for years.
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AN just said it was better for long term administration...
 
pbluekan said:
Ok, seriously guys, not putting the palace in valleyhome is absolutely ridiculous. There is absolutely no reason for that mechanically, as we've seen, as it would just make our centralization problem even worse, and no reason narratively. Who builds a palace for an elected king anywhere but the capital? It just doesn't make sense, especially when we have been preparing valleyhome for the role of an administrative center for years.

I get that people are worried about valleyhome prestige, but if that was the case then we shouldn't have.
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Well....
Academia Nut said:
Ehhh... well, the big issue is that Valleyhome will no longer be the defacto capital and thus you will have two non-capital True Cities. You will probably also have to get working on an aqueduct for Redshore fairly quickly as the presence of the palace will start moving the city towards being a True City via sheer overcrowding. However, it probably is a better location for the extreme long term.
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Academia Nut said:
Sea and river access is pretty big for administrative purposes.
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Academia Nut said:
Each additional annex adds an extra megaproject action to the total. They can be done later as an extended project at twice the cost.
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Twice the cost just in resources (So 2 econ, 2 art, 4 progress/1 main action), or in time as well? (2 econ, 2 art, 8 progress/2 main actions)

Raichu1972 said:
Ya, Redshore is a better pick in the Very Long Term, but we currently have no way of sustaining 3 True Cities, and we would have to focus entirely on building up Redshore while building the Palace if we want it to be anywhere near as effective as it would have been in Valleyhome.
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I mean, yeah, if we did Redshore, we'd definitely need to make Valleyhome a Free City. Though on that note... @Academia Nut does having a free city also remove the econ slot requirement, or does it just remove the per-turn econ drain/expansion gain?
 
pblur said:
AN just said it was better for long term administration...
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In the extreme long term.

Personally, I started off being interested in Redshore, but I think I'm back to backing valleyhome. I don't want to have to deal with True City woes, and in the long term a Redshore Palace might be exposed to naval warfare, which I'd rather not worry about. Better just put the thing smack-dab in the middle of our territories and work from there.
 
Raichu1972 said:
Ya, Redshore is a better pick in the Very Long Term, but we currently have no way of sustaining 3 True Cities, and we would have to focus entirely on building up Redshore while building the Palace if we want it to be anywhere near as effective as it would have been in Valleyhome.
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Why is redshore a better pick? Valleyhome has river access, developed infrastructure, developed administrative facilities, and hell, it is actually in the center of the kingdom. By this point land/river travel to/from valleyhome to the nearby territories is extremely well developed. Getting off a boat and taking a horse or even just walking from redshore to valleyhome shouldn't be terribly hard.

I get that redshore is on the sea, but thats about the only thing that makes it a better choice. Moving the capital there would cause so many issues and require so much secondary buildup that it just isn't even worth what little we would gain.
 
Ok, so if the number of annexes is roughly 1:1 with number of provinces+subordinates, then we have 17 slots for the palace. Now, we definitely don't want to be spending 17 turns building the darn thing, as that really risks something going fubar in the meantime, but we do want to have it in a nice shape before we close it out, especially given we can add to it with extended projects if we need to.

So given that, I'd rather like:

2x Shrine
2x Library
1x Storeroom
1x Armory
1x Garden
Default Living Quarters
Default Great Hall

This means it's 7 turns of actions for a decent initial palace, pretty doable in 2-3 turns on Megaproject Support, or 4 turns if we're forced to do it manually(I assume the 2x we did this turn builds the living quarters and great hall)

Any suggestions on what to add, or what we can live without?
 
Academia Nut said:
No. Actually, to whet your appetites and get productive discussion going, here are the possible expansions

Library
Shrine
Great Hall
Armory
Storerooms
Garden
Fortifications

The palace starts with living quarters and a Great Hall annex natively, and is assumed to start with a shrine expansion. You have the choice to add on additional expansions up to a limit based on the number of provinces and subordinates you have, but it also increases the time and resource commitment to the palace. You can build new annexes later, but it is more expensive in terms of time and resources. However, you can get significant effects for having more than the bare minimum, and annexes can have interactions with each other. Having multiple of the same type of annex can also have other effects, including but not limited to things like having an extra library or temple produced.

The possible locations to build in are Valleyhome, Sacred Forest, and Redshore.
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[X]Valleyhome

lower Valleyhome if possible / next to the river



We start with ; Living Quarters, Great Hall, Shrine (3 annexes)
We have 10 provinces and 6 subordinates (plus a mercenary company) so the palace can have 16 annexes


I vote for :
-Library (4 annexes)
-Library (5 annexes)
-Library (6 annexes)
-Shrine (7 annexes)
-Shrine (8 annexes)
-Great Hall (9 annexes)
-Storerooms (10 annexes)
-Garden (11 annexes)

A Palace with a triple sized Library should hopefully increase our Centralisation limit and count as a library (+1 Mysticism)
The double shrine should compensate for the fact many Kings do not have a Mysticism stat
The increased Great Hall will increase Prestige allowing us more subordinates
A Garden and a Storerooms is probably necessary, but I do not want our Kings to have a military focus so I am omiting both arsenal and fortifications.
 
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Susano said:
He said very long term.

But for now, the palace is an emergency project which we direly need to overcome our administration crisis. Putting the palace anywhere else than the centre of our culture will simply create even more strains for now.

/E: Cursed Blackbirds. Crow playing tricks on me...
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That's entirely fair point, but it is not the same as "there is no reason at all to place it in the Redshore" I was replying to.

pbluekan said:
Why is redshore a better pick? Valleyhome has river access, developed infrastructure, developed administrative facilities, and hell, it is actually in the center of the kingdom. By this point land/river travel to/from valleyhome to the nearby territories is extremely well developed. Getting off a boat and taking a horse or even just walking from redshore to valleyhome shouldn't be terribly hard.

I get that redshore is on the sea, but thats about the only thing that makes it a better choice. Moving the capital there would cause so many issues and require so much secondary buildup that it just isn't even worth what little we would gain.
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*shrug* Take it to AN. I assume that he meant that since as time goes on trade, especially seafaring and bulk, is going to become more and more important, coastal capital is going to be more and more beneficial. Think Rome with food from all over the empire being able to reach it due to Tiber and being only 16 km from the shore.
Or London.
Is it correct explanation, @Academia Nut ?
 
pblur said:
AN just said it was better for long term administration...
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pbluekan said:
Why is redshore a better pick? Valleyhome has river access, developed infrastructure, developed administrative facilities, and hell, it is actually in the center of the kingdom. By this point land/river travel to/from valleyhome to the nearby territories is extremely well developed. Getting off a boat and taking a horse or even just walking from redshore to valleyhome shouldn't be terribly hard.

I get that redshore is on the sea, but thats about the only thing that makes it a better choice. Moving the capital there would cause so many issues and require so much secondary buildup that it just isn't even worth what little we would gain.
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I said that Redshore is the better pick in the Extreme Long Term, likely because it has the ability to be a port and can more easily access wealth in the future due to bulk trade by sea routes, making it likely to be a very wealthy City in the far off future.

I also said that it's a terrible idea right now to make it our capital, because we are currently in a crisis and need to build the Palace in a place that is already well developed and easily accessible to a majority of our population, which would be in Valleyhome.

So, to make a long story short, I agree with you.
 
pbluekan said:
And yet you ignored everything else he said. Sure, better in the extreme long term. However, at a certain point, that 'better' becomes pretty minor in the face of the shitstorm we would face in the intervening time.

@Academia Nut

How long is the travel time between Valleyhome and Redshore?
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You do realize I said, more than once, that due to expandinng into Lowlands Valleyhome is my preferred choice due to communications, right?

Now, if we had no Lowlands, I would be very much pro-Redshore because we are very much coastal/riverside.
 
Chrestomanci said:
[X]Valleyhome

lower Valleyhome if possible / next to the river



We start with ; Living Quarters, Great Hall, Shrine (3 annexes)
We have 10 provinces and 6 subordinates (plus a mercenary company) so the palace can have 16 annexes


I vote for :
-Library (4 annexes)
-Library (5 annexes)
-Library (6 annexes)
-Shrine (7 annexes)
-Shrine (8 annexes)
-Great Hall (9 annexes)
-Storerooms (10 annexes)
-Garden (11 annexes)

A Palace with a triple sized Library should hopefully increase our Centralisation limit and count as a library (+1 Mysticism)
The double shrine should compensate for the fact many Kings do not have a Mysticism stat
The increased Great Hall will increase Prestige allowing us more subordinates
A Garden and a Storerooms is probably necessary, but I do not want our Kings to have a military focus so I am omiting both arsenal and fortifications.
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I disagree in the arsenal, because it would also be a source of weapon and armor innovations. And like it or not, our kings will need to fight once in a while, and being well equipped means he survives more often.
 
ctulhuslp said:
*shrug* Take it to AN. I assume that he meant that since as time goes on trade, especially seafaring and bulk, is going to become more and more important, coastal capital is going to be more and more beneficial. Think Rome with food from all over the empire being able to reach it due to Tiber and being only 16 km from the shore.
Or London.
Is it correct explanation, @Academia Nut ?
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Look at the map. We're slowly encroaching along the north and south coasts of the not!Black Sea. So extremely long term, the not!Black Sea will probably become our Mare Nostrum. In which case the not!Black Sea will in fact be the most efficient and important transportation medium of our culture.

...once the not!Black Sea is our Mare Nostrum. In the very, very long term.
 
tryrar said:
I disagree in the arsenal, because it would also be a source of weapon and armor innovations. And like it or not, our kings will need to fight once in a while, and being well equipped means he survives more often.
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Well no, most of our Kings have only average martial, so an Arsenal would likely be there to supply the War chief with weapons and armor and stuff, since they're more likely to actually lead on the field than an average King is.
 
I think just one shrine would be enough to allow priests to advise the King regarding spiritual matters. Two libraries sound about right, we do have to think a little long-term and have room for growth in our admin infrastructure. So my take would be to have one of each, including fortifications except for the libraries which I hope to have two of. Sound okay?
 
Can we keep the annexes to what is necessary? I want the project to be done in like 2 turns so we can turn our attention to the census and The Law megaproject.
 
@Academia Nut this might be a little redundant, but to be perfectly clear, if we later on expand a shrine/library annex enough through extended projects they will count as their respective independent building and give the proper bonus right? Just to be clear we're not pressed at this moment to build x number of library/shrine annexes right now.
 
Anyway, ignoring the where question for the moment, ALL the annexes are amazing. Here's how I'm valuing them:

  One Annex Additional Annexes
Library Great Great
Shrine Good Moderate
Great Hall Great Moderate
Armory Good Good
Storerooms Great Good
Garden Good Moderate
Fortifications Moderate Meh
I think it makes sense to break it down by 1 vs. many, since not all annexes scale equally well.

Looking at my ratings, I'd suggest thresholding on Great or Good depending on how much time we want to spend.

[] Plan Only the BEST
-[] Library x2
-[] Storerooms

OR

[] Plan Everything we really want
-[] Library x2/3
-[] Armoury x2
-[] Storerooms x2
-[] Garden

In both cases we get one shrine and a great hall to go with it, so I'm not listing them.
 
Kiba said:
Can we keep the annexes to what is necessary? I want the project to be done in like 2 turns so we can turn our attention to the census and The Law megaproject.
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We should go all in on the Palace because the more we put into it now the more dividends it will pay back later.

I want to make sure that our admin pressure is Greatly Relieved by building this, otherwise there was basically no point in doing so.
 
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