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Paths of Civilization

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I'd really like to do Study Forests next turn. Our forests are important as a way of terraforming, and as a source of lumber. But if we're successful with studying them, we may get a lot of other stuff out of them. We could get fruit and nut trees and bushes to domesticate, get a hold of a honey industry (which also means more bees, and bees are awesome in an ecological sense as well), find useful herbs and mushrooms to use and cultivate, and maybe figure out more about the kinds of trees we should cultivate. All of these things are good for our economy, and possibly for other stats.
 
Andres110 said:
Our traders aren't the ones mostly taking care of our cattle. Most of our cattle is on pastures, which means the farmers have them. Also, the traders are balanced in power.
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Still, more protein would be good, this isn't modern times, where we can just go "full vegetables route", and our People have been noted as being smaller than our neighbors despite the fact that we probably make more food.
 
Why do people want to get involved in the war? Frankly, I want to do two economic actions and a War Carts/Warrior action next turn. If the WC and the ST break themselves on the DP and then each other as they squabble over the territory, we can then sweep in and deal with both of them for the inevitable crimes they commit during the war. And take the land at the same time.
 
zamin said:
I'll go through both of the posts here, but bear in mind I don't have the stats for "War Against the Storm 2", so I might have missed a few things.
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I had it open in a tab if you want it.
It's an unformatted mess though. Can't quote it anymore
Civilization Stats

General
Diplomacy 6
Economy 1
Martial 4

Stability 0 (neutral)

Organizational
Centralization 5
Hierarchy 4

Cultural
Art 5
Mysticism 5

Social Values (3/3)
Shapers of the Land
This world is good, but through tremendous effort and skill, it can be made better, an act which your people take immense joy and pride in. Tread not lightly upon land defended by its sculptors.
Pros: Bonuses to all actions relating to land management, bonuses when fighting on own terrain, additional Econ and Stability whenever completing a land management type Megaproject
Cons: Additional strife caused by deliberate environmental disruption unless it is for the long term betterment of the land, or loss of territory to others

Eye for an Eye
Justice is to be served, but it must be discriminating and proportional. Retribution must follow, but it must also end once served.
Pros: Greater assurances of fair behaviour, regardless of position within the tribe
Cons: Justice must be served

Love Thy Neighbour
You care deeply about all people, no matter who they are or where they come from. This comes with hardships, but it also allows the best of others to be easily taken up.
Pros: Deep ties of reciprocity, ideas shared more easily, +1 social value taken from a current or historical neighbour
Cons: Strife generated from turning people away, paints a target

Pioneering Spirit (LTN linked)
In times of strife, it is best to set out into new territory rather than draw a line in the sand, which also benefits setting out into new territory when there isn't strife.
Pros: Whenever stability drops, Econ increases as the political losers find something else to do with their time. New ideas introduced by foreigners are also more quickly adopted, and new settlements are established more quickly.
Cons: Whenever stability drops, also lose Centralization as pioneers break away from central authority figures

Spiritual Values
Harmony
To live in harmony with oneself, ones neighbours, and ones environment is to live in harmony with the spirits. To live in disharmony is to invite disaster.
Pros: Bonus to collective action
Cons: Disharmony is to be corrected

Legacies
+1 Centralization Tolerance

Government Type
Early Ancient Kingdom (Elective)
Central power is held by one man who delegates outwards, but there is still only so much authority that can be wielded. This sub-type currently has the position be non-hereditary and selected by other members of the administrative group
Pros: Access to additional infrastructure projects, bonus to collective action
Cons: Certain actions like new settlement development do not happen organically, but require direct intervention

Administration
Memory
Early Writing (Logographic)

Construction
Wood
Masonry
Early City Walls

Energy Production
Muscle Power
Animal Power

Food Production
Fishing
Horse Milling
Mollusc Cultivation
Orchards
Step Farming
Terra Preta

Materials
Stone
Pottery

Science
Ancestral Heroes
Animism

Transportation
Animal Husbandry
Groomed Trails
Solid Wheel Carts

Watercraft
Great Canoes
Early Sailboats
Artistry
Personalized Projects
Specialists

Administrators
Specialist advisors

Entertainers
Amateur group activity
Non-caste semi-specialists

Intellectuals
Elders
Shamans

Leadership
Semi-hereditary specialist

Merchants
Hereditary family

Property
Communal

Warriors
Semi-hereditary specialist
Cavalry
War Wagons

Melee
Ceramic Maces
Spears
Two-Handed Clubs

Ranged
Recurve Bows
Slings
Spear Throwers
Sacred Forest
While the forests stand and the people care for them, the forests shall care for them. As long as the Sacred Forest is intact, all forests under the control of the People are considered managed, and gain the new action Expand Forest.
 
Romv said:
I'd really like to do Study Forests next turn. Our forests are important as a way of terraforming, and as a source of lumber. But if we're successful with studying them, we may get a lot of other stuff out of them. We could get fruit and nut trees and bushes to domesticate, get a hold of a honey industry (which also means more bees, and bees are awesome in an ecological sense as well), find useful herbs and mushrooms to use and cultivate, and maybe figure out more about the kinds of trees we should cultivate. All of these things are good for our economy, and possibly for other stats.
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Wax is also likely to be a big deal, so I agree that you are right about that option, but would you consider just doing Pasture and Fishing this next turn, in order to increase our peoples dietary diversity and protein intake a little, it's noticeable by our peoples height we're not getting enough?
 
bluefur87 said:
Weren't we at 0 econ at the beginning of the turn?
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That moment when you realize you mixed up the two long open tabs
Civilization Stats

General
Diplomacy 5
Economy 0
Martial 4

Stability 0 (neutral)

Organizational
Centralization 5
Hierarchy 4

Cultural
Art 5
Mysticism 6

Social Values (3/3)
Shapers of the Land
This world is good, but through tremendous effort and skill, it can be made better, an act which your people take immense joy and pride in. Tread not lightly upon land defended by its sculptors.
Pros: Bonuses to all actions relating to land management, bonuses when fighting on own terrain, additional Econ and Stability whenever completing a land management type Megaproject
Cons: Additional strife caused by deliberate environmental disruption unless it is for the long term betterment of the land, or loss of territory to others

Protective Justice
Punishment and retribution are not justice, but tools of justice. Justice exists to encourage desirable behaviours, and thus can be best served by discouraging bad behaviour before it happens.
Pros: Justice is an objective, and thus can be served without retribution or retaliation
Cons: Sometimes the call for justice comes early...

Love Thy Neighbour
You care deeply about all people, no matter who they are or where they come from. This comes with hardships, but it also allows the best of others to be easily taken up.
Pros: Deep ties of reciprocity, ideas shared more easily, +1 social value taken from a current or historical neighbour
Cons: Strife generated from turning people away, paints a target

Pioneering Spirit (LTN linked)
In times of strife, it is best to set out into new territory rather than draw a line in the sand, which also benefits setting out into new territory when there isn't strife.
Pros: Whenever stability drops, Econ increases as the political losers find something else to do with their time. New ideas introduced by foreigners are also more quickly adopted, and new settlements are established more quickly.
Cons: Whenever stability drops, also lose Centralization as pioneers break away from central authority figures

Spiritual Values
Harmony
To live in harmony with oneself, ones neighbours, and ones environment is to live in harmony with the spirits. To live in disharmony is to invite disaster.
Pros: Bonus to collective action
Cons: Disharmony is to be corrected

Legacies
+2 Centralization Tolerance

Government Type
Ancient Kingdom (Elective)
Among the powerful groups, it is now common that there is a single man at the centre of all things who delegates outwards. This sub-type involves the king being selected by those in the rulership class rather than inheriting.
Pros: Access to additional infrastructure projects, bonus to collective action
Cons: Certain actions like new settlement development do not happen organically, but require direct intervention

Administration
Memory
Early Writing (Logographic)

Construction
Wood
Masonry
Early City Walls

Energy Production
Muscle Power
Animal Power

Food Production
Fishing
Horse Milling
Mollusc Cultivation
Orchards
Step Farming
Terra Preta

Materials
Stone
Pottery

Science
Ancestral Heroes
Animism

Transportation
Animal Husbandry
Groomed Trails
Solid Wheel Carts

Watercraft
Great Canoes
Early Sailboats
Artistry
Personalized Projects
Specialists

Administrators
Specialist advisors

Entertainers
Amateur group activity
Non-caste semi-specialists

Intellectuals
Elders
Shamans

Leadership
Semi-hereditary specialist

Merchants
Hereditary family

Property
Communal

Warriors
Semi-hereditary specialist
Cavalry
War Wagons

Melee
Ceramic Maces
Spears
Two-Handed Clubs

Ranged
Recurve Bows
Slings
Spear Throwers
Sacred Forest
While the forests stand and the people care for them, the forests shall care for them. As long as the Sacred Forest is intact, all forests under the control of the People are considered managed, and gain the new action Expand Forest.
 
For the update itself, I'm glad I was right that accepting the nomads would provide an addittional social value although I didn't expect a merge to happen with Pioneering Spirit. The new trait is phenomenal though, and it's particularly good if we can get a stablity enhancer/mitigater value which is what people are hoping for from the Spirit Talkers.

The trait says if our neighbors suffer a stability drop we can take one as well and get economy, technology and social advancement. I wonder though if we can actually inflict that stability hit on another polity with war for example, then once their threat to us is limited activate Land of Opportunity. We wouldn't want to do this on peaceful neighbors as it'd likely hit our harmony value, but on more warlike and aggressive nearby polities it seems like a pretty fantastic combination.

Hell, there's even better synergy as the more warlike and aggressive neighbors will see land of opportunity and activate the con of it, thinking that we are weak. They would then be more inclined to attack us, Shapers of the Land will gives us bonuses on the defense while Prospective Justice will also be activated enabling us to go after them once we've fought them off initially. We then raise an army with our sheer population and bonus to collective actions, go and inflict stability hits to them, then activate Land of Opportunity to assimilate them and expand even further while learning any good technologies they possessed and getting an economy boost.
 
[X] Bring them back in line (Increases Centralization if successful, decreases stability if not)
[X] Join the Western Confederacy
[X] Spirit Talkers (Probably spiritual based)
 
Oh, and one of the things I really want to do next turn is new trails. It will help us exert our influence on the Western Confederacy and we really need to do that so we can take that sweet sweet river land. I think we'll probably end up absorbing them piecemeal though.
 
I'm voting to stay out of it because as Gwygoytha's son said, "When eagles fight, crows feast." The big war will be a distraction where we can focus on our economy. Furthermore, the stability penalties the WC and ST might get hit by are directly beneficial to us.
 
Andres110 said:
I'm voting to stay out of it because as Gwygoytha's son said, "When eagles fight, crows feast." The big war will be a distraction where we can focus on our economy. Furthermore, the stability penalties the WC and ST might get hit by are directly beneficial to us.
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To be fair his plan didn't really work all that well.
We have enough economic actions that we can easily recover the economy and fight as part of a coalition in a war, at least that's my personal belief.

Also, have you seen what Crows can do to Buzzards and Hawks?
It's god damn brutal. They surround and pick at the Hawk till they can't take it anymore and they flee or die.
Crows feast when they want. They wait for no one.
 
[X] Bring them back in line(Increases Centralization if successful, decreases stability if not)
[X] Join the Western Confederacy
[X] Spirit Talkers (Probably spiritual based)
 
McLuvin said:
To be fair his plan didn't really work all that well.
We have enough economic actions that we can easily recover the economy and fight as part of a coalition in a war, at least that's my personal belief.

Also, have you seen what Crows can do to Buzzards and Hawks?
It's god damn brutal. They surround and pick at the Hawk till they can't take it anymore and they flee or die.
Crows feast when they want. They wait for no one.
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Well, thing is, we need as much concentration on bringing corrupted chiefs to justice as possible. I think preparation for war will decrease chances of success in centralization effort.
 
Varano said:
Wax is also likely to be a big deal, so I agree that you are right about that option, but would you consider just doing Pasture and Fishing this next turn, in order to increase our peoples dietary diversity and protein intake a little, it's noticeable by our peoples height we're not getting enough?
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[Main]Expand Fishing
[Secondary]Study Forests
[Secondary]Expand Pasture
 
ctulhuslp said:
Well, thing is, we need as much concentration on bringing corrupted chiefs to justice as possible. I think preparation for war will decrease chances of success in centralization effort.
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I don't see it like that myself.

Surely if you have the army mobilised then the lesser Chiefs will be too intimidated to move against the High Chief, and once the wars started they will be seen by many of our people as opportunistic and selfish if they attempt to disrupt the kingdom whilst we are at war.
 
Romv said:
[Main]Expand Fishing
[Secondary]Study Forests
[Secondary]Expand Pasture
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I disagree. I think we need to expand shrines ASAP; we have decent enough economy, and they are described as 'places of wisdom', so they are a way to writing system.
So, I'd rather:
[Main] Expand Shrines
[2nd] Study Forests (Synergy with Shrines most likely)
[2nd] Expand Fishing
 
McLuvin said:
I don't see it like that myself.

Surely if you have the army mobilised then the lesser Chiefs will be too intimidated to move against the High Chief, and once the wars started they will be seen by many of our people as opportunistic and selfish if they attempt to disrupt the kingdom whilst we are at war.
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If it was war for our survival, you would be right. But it is war on more or less foreign soil, and it may well turn out that people despise High Chief for wasting lives on not our war while trying to 'remove states Chiefs' rights' or something similar.
Basically, go full Vietnam with side order of corruption and decentralization.
 
ctulhuslp said:
I disagree. I think we need to expand shrines ASAP; we have decent enough economy, and they are described as 'places of wisdom', so they are a way to writing system.
So, I'd rather:
[Main] Expand Shrines
[2nd] Study Forests (Synergy with Shrines most likely)
[2nd] Expand Fishing
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Hmm, I'm not that into writing, really. We already have a writing system, it's just not that widespread.
I do want better boats though. And TREES!
So:
[Main]Expand Fishing
[Secondary]Study Forests
[Secondary]Expand Forests
Hopefully this will improve our ship technology, and give us some synergy between the forest actions.
Come to think of it, maybe we could reach the gold sellers via the sea if we have better boats.
 
ctulhuslp said:
If it was war for our survival, you would be right. But it is war on more or less foreign soil, and it may well turn out that people despise High Chief for wasting lives on not our war while trying to 'remove states Chiefs' rights' or something similar.
Basically, go full Vietnam with side order of corruption and decentralization.
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Point.

Maybe I was just overestimating the people's patriotism....
 
ctulhuslp said:
It's bad and primitive. Elders need a lifetime of learning to learn all the words. We need better one.
Plus shrines will probably increase stability or centralization, both of which we lack.
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If we start trading, we might find a better and superior writing system.

Romv said:
Hmm, I'm not that into writing, really. We already have a writing system, it's just not that widespread.
I do want better boats though. And TREES!
So:
[Main]Expand Fishing
[Secondary]Study Forests
[Secondary]Expand Forests
Hopefully this will improve our ship technology, and give us some synergy between the forest actions.
Come to think of it, maybe we could reach the gold sellers via the sea if we have better boats.
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You guys do realize that next turn, we will only have two slots to choose from, right? We'll be at war.
 
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