Just look at our per turn Econ income and expenses. A single Expand Economy consumes 4 slots. We can spend 8 Econ in a single turn when you include the mid turn reaction.

LTE of 12 basically means swinging between "shit out of econ, generate some" and "shit, out of slots, generate some". We cannot hit the Econ cap. It's higher than our LTE. Pay close attention to this when your argument for Free City is that it helps us generate Wealth, because it actually bars us from Econ overflow until we spend about 6 wealth fixing it.

LTE of 16 has enough leeway that we manage to organically cycle them, but we cannot actually hit the Econ cap, because that will leave us with 0 slots and overcrowding.

LTE of 20 lets us actually spend for two turns in a row without stopping to generate if we take in significant econ(e.g. eating the Stallions). It also lets us hit the Econ cap without running out of slots.

If you're voting for Free City for the Centralization, this does not affect you.
If you're voting for it under the belief that it'd help with our economy...you need to actually look at the math. The tax is easier to cope with than the loss of Long Term Econ, because we don't have the Wealth or Actions to regenerate it AND do three megaprojects in a row.
 
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Perhaps two people should roll dice, one for city Yes and one for No, and everyone who cares more about tie breaking than the exact outcome can go with the higher one?
 
Which is actually very bad. Good LTE is about 20(10 Econ 10 Slots, allowing us to eat refugee influxes or maintain the kind of Econ we need to spend on I dunno, megaprojects?). Okay LTE is about 16, where we have some leeway, but it can get tight at extremes.

We'd be entering a boom-bust cycle if we drop to 12 LTE. A turn of spending, then the mid turn recovering or vice versa.
I didn't realize you meant the upfront cost.


Anyways, aren't you planning to integrate the stallion tribes? Because that is going to give us a ton of LTE; the last province was +8LTE and I think the stallions are larger than an average province.
 
Perhaps two people should roll dice, one for city Yes and one for No, and everyone who cares more about tie breaking than the exact outcome can go with the higher one?
Sorry, veekie's making me care now. He's right. We don't have actions to increase LTE, and 12 LTE is too low to deal with without micromanagement. Micromanagement we can't afford with 3 megaprojects we need done ASAP.

Yes is actually going to cause serious problems.
 
I didn't realize you meant the upfront cost.


Anyways, aren't you planning to integrate the stallion tribes? Because that is going to give us a ton of LTE; the last province was +8LTE and I think the stallions are larger than an average province.
Way larger.

They have something like 7 or 8 Settlements, so two or three provinces.
 
Stallions – [Main] Expand Econ, [Sec] Art Patronage, [Sec] Study Stars
We need to integrate the Stallion Tribes next turn. They're building up - possibly have already built up - the required stats necessary to make their temple.

Next turn, I think we should do this:
[Main] Integrate Stallion Tribes
[Main] Grand Palace

We need to get started on the Grand Palace and starting next turn will allow us to switch to Megaproject Support the turn after without also having to do a Grand Palace action ourselves, giving us extra flexibility. This will leave policy on Offence, but that's acceptable since our vassal will still be fighting and staying on Offence will result in us automatically helping them. If the nomads up north turn hostile, War Missions will go their way as well.

Integrating the Stallion Tribes, besides letting us build the dragon bone temple, will give us a windfall of Economy. That Economy will be used to pay for the megaproject, pay for our True Cities, and possibly allow us to send more people over to the lowlands in the midturn. Their Martial will also improve the War Missions we send to help the lowlands and our Offence policy will ensure that even if the Stallion Tribes are attacked, they'll have at least one Main War Mission dedicated to their defence, even if they can't provide it themselves anymore.
 
I didn't realize you meant the upfront cost.


Anyways, aren't you planning to integrate the stallion tribes? Because that is going to give us a ton of LTE; the last province was +8LTE and I think the stallions are larger than an average province.
Good point...

UGh, why can't this be easy. ;)

Still, the stallions should be easily a minimum of 4 LTE.

OK, I'm game for dice roll. @ThrawnCA, would you roll a 1d2? If 2, Yes. If 1, No. For all tie breakers.
 
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Do we know if were getting an update tonight? Just curious to how long I should stay awa- well, i'll probably stay awake no matter what...
:p
 
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)

[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
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Well, let us all appreciate this moment of peaceful vote discussion; accepting and prepare for our eventual demise.

Ahem!
 
You don't think people will feel cheated from their vote losing due to a dice roll rather than through debate?

I would at any rate.
No... not really? But that's largely because debate has died out. All the points have been made, and there's really not a huge amount more to be said.
 
I didn't realize you meant the upfront cost.


Anyways, aren't you planning to integrate the stallion tribes? Because that is going to give us a ton of LTE; the last province was +8LTE and I think the stallions are larger than an average province.
I am, but the Stallions are actually not that much larger, you can count their total number of settlements to be quite low(I need to go out soon, so no full check, but they're around 4-5 settlements and hadn't built any for 10+ main turns), but they practice semi-nomadic lifestyle so they cover a lot of geography
Way larger.

They have something like 7 or 8 Settlements, so two or three provinces.
Nope. That's the Western Wall.
The Stallions only have the one province. They do not have the legal authority to establish or administrate more settlements than that.

Furthermore, until recently they have insufficient economy slots, you can see how they kept building Main Forests instead of other Econ consumers. I think they might not be getting the True City refund on Econ?
That puts their LTE at an absolute maximum of about 12, with the reality being lower because building chariots was LTE negative for most of our history.
 
Good point...

UGh, why can't this be easy. ;)

Still, the stallions should be easily a minimum of 4 LTE.

OK, I'm game for dice roll. @ThrawnCA, would you roll a 1d2? If 2, Yes. If 1, No. For all tie breakers.
Another reason for supporting the city. I think that we will get ~8 LTE from the stallions, if not more - and that puts us at 24 or 25 LTE if we don't get the city. That means we can't go BELOW 10 econ without popping a true city. :(
 
Do you think either choice will have severe consequences?
I can make a stab at that.

Yes -> Future Tax issues as we have to figure out how to tax a Free City, which I would think is more complex than a True City. Free Cities hate taxes as far as I know, but kings want to tax them for revenue. Offloads some Authority and work though.

No -> Does not offload work or authority. No Tax issues beyond a standard True City.


No... not really? But that's largely because debate has died out. All the points have been made, and there's really not a huge amount more to be said.
You'd be surprised.
 
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