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Paths of Civilization

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bluefur87 said:
Saltern needs to be added to trade. It's actually a bit cheaper than a trade post since econ is easier to generate and we'll have to spend time defending a trade post.

I'm sorry, but while trails is a relatively high priority, we have both better ways of helping the north (expand vineyard, aqueducts, temple), but we also have a smaller window in the lowlands for getting something set up.

I'd totally be down with a colony in the lowlands if that's an option. I don't think it is or will be though.
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Don't worry the (high priority) stuff is person and name specific. I'll remove them if they get too annoying.

And thanks for your opinion!

Are you okay with me adding you into the Colony and Saltern and support the North Goals?
 
Gonna be honest @BungieONI but saying you support everything is about as useful as supporting nothing. I appreciate the effort, though, to get some of this sorted out. All of those are credible goals. Personally, I'm behind palace and administrative goals first, before anything else.
 
pbluekan said:
Gonna be honest @BungieONI but saying you support everything is about as useful as supporting nothing. I appreciate the effort, though, to get some of this sorted out. All of those are credible goals. Personally, I'm behind palace and administrative goals first, before anything else.
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That's because I am building this off of what my Goals are that I can remember(and I sadly have a tendency to remember the ones I agree with first), so of course I am gonna be on all of them. :p
I happen to have a few. :V

I'll put you in. Thanks for your input!
 
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bluefur87 said:
we also have a smaller window in the lowlands for getting something set up.
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Aren't trails what we need in order to keep a handle on extra settlements in the lowlands, though?

I favor doing both at once if we can. If it's feasible to build both provinces and trails, then I'd rate that higher than Palace (because the point of the Palace is to enable expansion, which we would already be doing), and the Dam (because expansion will help us claim the best sites for it before the HK take them back), and a golden age (because it will be much easier to achieve that if we have more actions to work with).
 
ThrawnCA said:
Aren't trails what we need in order to keep a handle on extra settlements in the lowlands, though?

I favor doing both at once if we can. If it's feasible to build both provinces and trails, then I'd rate that higher than Palace (because the point of the Palace is to enable expansion, which we would already be doing), and the Dam (because expansion will help us claim the best sites for it before the HK take them back), and a golden age (because it will be much easier to achieve that if we have more actions to work with).
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Do you mind if I add a Goal with your name attached saying "Want to build Dam in south Cataracts/Badlands" under Expansion?
 
@BungieONI

For Expansion Goals: The available sites we currently can make into a province with a single Main(high). Also add me to the lowlands expansion (very high) and Greenshore transformation (only when the WW is close to the MW, so quite low).

For Admin Goals: A few double main trails, the Palace and Census. (All high)

For the North: A Saltern expansion, aqueducts, more temples and libraries(Very high). Plus more trails(high priority) . The canal if integrate the Stallions (high).

For Diplomancy: Raise it high enough to integrate the Stallions(Critical) and parts of the WW(medium to low).
 
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pbluekan said:
Personally, I'm behind palace and administrative goals first, before anything else.
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Bear in mind that the palace should not be a goal but a plan. The palace is only useful as a means to an end. What's the end?

Since you're targeting admin advances, I'm guessing that your actual goal here is to be able to maintain as many subordinates and provinces as possible without breaking up. Is that a fair assessment?

Sounds quite compatible with my goals. Specifically, do you want to expand for the sake of more actions, or more political/military influence (eg denying the lowlands to others)? I mean, they're both valuable of course, but it's helpful to know which matters more to you. For example, I want more actions, so I'd be willing to swap a new province for something else that gave actions, like when we created the mercenary company, and I'd rather build a Colony than a March, because they tend to expand to more sites.
 
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ETA50M said:
@BungieONI

For Expansion Goals: The available sites we currently can make into a province with a single Main. Also add me to the lowlands expansion and Greenshore transformation (only when the WW is close to the MW).

For Admin Goals: A few double main trails, the Palace and Census.

For the North: A Saltern expansion, aqueducts, more temples and libraries. Plus more trails. The canal when if integrate the Stallions.

For Diplomancy: Raise it high enough to integrate the Stallions and parts of the WW. A Trelli trading post with another mercenary company (if we integrate the Stallions first) or the Red Banner.
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K.

Working on it.


fictionfan said:
I am up for the Palace and building roads every time our centralization goes down.
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Okay!



Thanks for the input folks!
 
BungieONI said:
Do you mind if I add a Goal with your name attached saying "Want to build Dam in south Cataracts/Badlands" under Expansion?
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Hmm...that's not really my goal. My goal is more actions. Does the Dam help us get those?

If someone can persuade me that "dam in badlands" is our most effective route to settling more places, then sure.
 
ThrawnCA said:
Hmm...that's not really my goal. My goal is more actions. Does the Dam help us get those?

If someone can persuade me that "dam in badlands" is our most effective route to settling more places, then sure.
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We are not getting more actions we are hitting human limits. Or at least we are not getting more actions under our own control. It might be possible to give more authority to the under chiefs so they can do more actions.
 
BungieONI said:
I am also wary of playing funny business with 5 Cent and a policy which may only drop us by two.
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A double main trails will only add two Cent, though, right? And we know that Expansion policy favors building new provinces, of which there are plenty available ATM, so that should drop it by 2. So, worst case, we stay at Cent 5, but have lots more trails and two new provinces, which ought to give an extra secondary action, meaning that on the following turn we can probably build 3 more provinces.

And if we do double main trails twice, that really should give us the evolution AN has promised.

fictionfan said:
We are not getting more actions we are hitting human limits. Or at least we are not getting more actions under our own control.
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Province actions are OK with me. We still control them well enough, via policies.

It might be possible to give more authority to the under chiefs so they can do more actions.
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Improving the trails will enable us to better manage that many provinces, per WoAN. So I think we can push our limits a bit further this way.
 
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ThrawnCA said:
Aren't trails what we need in order to keep a handle on extra settlements in the lowlands, though?
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The current lowlands expansion site would honestly be pretty easy to administer even without any extra trails, compared to, say stonepen, even with the trails we've got. You can take the river down at least to Lower Valleyhome, maybe even to the Badlands settlement (I think the actual name is Bonevalley, or something like it?), and while the cataracts stop you from going the entire way by river, our longboats are perfect for "take river down to before cataracts, portage it up to below cataracts, take river rest of the way"
 
ThrawnCA said:
Hmm...that's not really my goal. My goal is more actions. Does the Dam help us get those?

If someone can persuade me that "dam in badlands" is our most effective route to settling more places, then sure.
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K I'll just put you under a general "Want more actions" goal in Expansion.


ThrawnCA said:
A double main trails will only add two Cent, though, right? And we know that Expansion policy favors building new provinces, of which there are plenty available ATM, so that should drop it by 2. So, worst case, we stay at Cent 5, but have lots more trails and two new provinces, which ought to give an extra secondary action, meaning that on the following turn we can probably build 3 more provinces.

And if we do double main trails twice, that really should give us the evolution AN has promised.
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It's the timing on the admin roll that is my concern. When exactly does the drop happen and when does the trails pay out? Because we could end up in a situation of temp 6+ Cent which sounds bad even if temporary.
 
BungieONI said:
K I'll just put you under a general "Want more actions" goal in Expansion.
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Sounds good. I can hang out with @notgreat :).

It's the timing on the admin roll that is my concern. When exactly does the drop happen and when does the trails pay out? Because we could end up in a situation of temp 6+ Cent which sounds bad even if temporary.
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Ah, fair call. Barring another admin hero, we'd need to take that into consideration.

We could just adjust it a bit, though. Instead of double main trails + switch to Expansion on the first turn, double main trails + whatever on the second turn, we could do: double main something else (Northshore Saltern maybe?) + switch to Expansion on the first turn, double main trails + whatever (finish Saltern?) on the second turn, double main trails + maybe switch policy (back to balanced or megaproject?) on the third turn.
 
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ThrawnCA said:
That's a plan, but what's your overarching goal?

Knowing your goal means that you know how to adapt your plans when circumstances change - and circumstances change all the time in this quest.
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My overarching goal is to take and hold the lowlands, but we need more and better admin tech and infrastructure before we can grow much bigger. Secondary long term goals are to take the entire not!black sea, and become the trade capital of the world.
 
This is mostly an attempt to get people to consider all factors instead of just a few. These are generally not mutually exclusive. Let me know if I missed anything or if some of these sound like strawmanning. I'm trying to make sure every side gets a fair interpretation.

Action Efficiency
What it is: Choosing actions that produce more resources than consumed
Pros: Actions are efficient in terms of resource production/consumption.
Cons: Efficient actions may not have any room to improve. Less technological innovations. Overlooks actions that can improve in the long term or synergistic actions. Overlooks narrative effects.

Breadth and Balanced Policy
What it is: Choosing balanced policy and handling everything else with main actions
Pros: Flexible. Can easily change focus.
Cons: Jack of all Trades, Master of None. No long term focus. Technology might not be tradeable. Relies on provinces to choose wisely. Provinces don't have meta-knowledge.

Depth and Other Policies
What it is: Focusing on one aspect at a time.
Pros: Faster completion of goals. Always have the law activate on something we want. Can take advantage of free policy changes.
Cons: Sometimes takes a secondary action to change policies. Needs planning and resource hoarding to stay on one policy. Some areas may become outdated. Slow to react to unexpected changes.

Expansion
What it is: Expanding territory, planting forests and increasing resource limits
Pros: Forest slots help economy. More territory means more locations to place things. More resource limits means we can have a larger buffer for things we want to do.
Cons: Harder to administrate. More investment required for each settlement. Harder to overflow and reach golden age. More territory to defend.

Golden Age
What it is: Collects resources and stability for activating Golden Age.
Pros: Golden Age enhances research and innovation.
Cons: Resource hoarding can lead to stagnation in the short term. Requires max stability for a turn which may be impossible during times of turmoil.

Infrastructure
What it is: Improve infrastructure or things with passive effects.
Pro: Passive income. Improve other actions through refunding/synergy.
Cons: Heavy resource investment. Takes multiple turns to pay out. Sacrifices in the short term.

Megaproject
What it is: Build megaprojects and collect resources for more.
Pros: Megaprojects have passive effects. Unlocks and enhance other actions.
Cons: Locks out Main action and consumes many resources. Can be troublesome to maintain during a crisis.

Narrative
What is it: Looks at narrative and considers hidden effects.
Pros: Sees interactions other schools of thought may miss.
Cons: Can be misinterpreted. May see things where there aren't any.

Secondary Action Equivalents
What it is: Optimizing number of actions in a turn. Mains count as two secondaries. This means aiming for Double Main + Secondary and getting the Law proc on policy actions. It includes expanding so we get more automatic actions.
Pros: Actions are our main limiting factor in terms of what we can do per update.
Cons: Actions are not equivalent. Most actions do not scale linearly when going from Secondary to Main. Double Main is inflexible.

Stability
What it is: Maintain high stability in case of crisis.
Pros: Can handle crisis with minimum disruption. Available stability to spend means we can take society disrupting actions with minimal consequence.
Cons: Stability raising actions consume many resources and are mostly action-inefficient. Enforce Justice by itself is action-efficient but raises centralization which needs another action to lower. May be adverse to choices that lower stability.

Study and Innovation
What it is: Study actions, improving current ones and looking at the unknown.
Pros: Unlocks new actions. Improves current actions. Synergy with love of wisdom and Golden Age.
Cons: No guarantee of success. Unknown quality of improvements.

Trade
What it is: Getting trade dominance, trading and exploring.
Pros: Better connections with outside world. Trade Dominance gives passive income. Possibility of technology trade.
Cons: Maintaining Trade Dominance may take up actions. Other polities may take offence to trade dominance. Neglects internal affairs.
 
Killer_Whale said:
My overarching goal is to take and hold the lowlands, but we need more and better admin tech and infrastructure before we can grow much bigger. Secondary long term goals are to take the entire not!black sea, and become the trade capital of the world.
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Welcome to the lowlands coalition, comrade.

On the lowlands: I want us to grab the cataracts first so we have a foothold in the door. We also need to expand a few times into the avaible remaining empty provinces left so we can double main new trails a few times.

On the black sea: Let the WW expand close enough then alter the Greenshore into a colony. We also need to periodically integrate parts of the WW as well.
 
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Killer_Whale said:
My overarching goal is to take and hold the lowlands, but we need more and better admin tech and infrastructure before we can grow much bigger. Secondary long term goals are to take the entire not!black sea, and become the trade capital of the world.
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Okay how about I put you under this:

Into the "Want to build the Palace" and "Want to build Trails" goals and then I make other goals which are "Expand into Entire Lowlands" and "Expand around entire Not!Black Sea, become World Trade Capital" Goals?


ETA50M said:
Welcome to the lowlands coalition, comrade.
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I guess I can put you there too? :V
 
BungieONI said:
Okay how about I put you under this:

Into the "Want to build the Palace" and "Want to build Trails" goals and then I make other goals which are "Expand into Entire Lowlands" and "Expand around entire Not!Black Sea, become World Trade Capital" Goals?



I guess I can put you there too? :V
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My thousand year ambition will be fulfilled, trust me I'm getting there very slowly but surely.
 
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