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Paths of Civilization

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ThrawnCA said:
I am in favor of the trails action, but which Expansion actions will drop Centralization?

Note that my overarching goal was and is to get more actions per turn, because with enough actions, you can have all the things. And the best path to that is subordinate states and provinces. And at the moment, most of our subordinate states are hurting for lack of trails, and it's risky to put down more provinces without expanding admin capabilities. We have WoAN that trails will help with both problems, and that they will soon evolve (hopefully in a way that stops boosting Cent). So let's do trails.

If necessary, I'm willing to delay the palace in order to do trails, because they address the same issue.
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Expansion in general is the increase of our economy and provinces, with our provinces likely to favor new provinces. That drops Centralization. We also know that our provinces will not destroy a true city so it's likely they will through in some econ expansion with it. We also hope that they will get new forests, because holy shit is that needed.

And we really need to jump on the lowland province asap. That is absolutely a closing door that is painful enough to not take while working the megaproject.
BungieONI said:
Only issue I have with this is I don't think our Cent is going to drop much in the near future so I propose:

Turn before:

[Main] Megaproject
[Secondary] Survey
[Secondary] Change Policy-Expansion

Then the turn after we do:
[Main] New Trails- North
[Secondary] ???
[Secondary] ???

I don't want to play funnies with 5 Cent, unless you are confident the Cent drop from our Provinces making a New Province will occur before we make the trails.
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I am absolutely confident our provinces will drop cent by at least one under expansion policy.
That said, if we end up needing just one more turn for the megaproject, I support this. It's rather a question of how much I expect it to actually happen.
 
I still think that we should simply build trails. Trying to choose the area where to build them relies on voter assumptions and incomplete information rather than the expertise of our people. Our government knows where to build them for the best long term benefit of the people.
 
ETA50M said:
Doing expansion to lower our centralization to make space for new trails could gain some traction since some people want more forests and charcoal as well. It's about having people with different goals aligning on the same actions.

First off I edited out that first sentence it wasn't being helpful or conductive to the discussion at all. The frustration with voter discipline is what caused me to be so condescending earlier. However that doesn't mean we still can't try or discuss long term plans. This thread is qutie active but instead of glorifying ourselves in relation to our neighbours we should be constantly looking to the future and what needs to be done to make us more robust to a crisis. The posts above are already attempting to try this so let's continue it. Let's act more like a government then factions of voters. So let's get everyone to state thier long term plans then hash out compromises. So in this new vein of discussion.

What are some long term plans you want to see and what actions do you believe will help us get there?
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What I call long term plans are basically to get 2 turns in a row towards a certain thing since anything more is almost literally impossible, since 3 turns = 60 years
I just don't think Long terms are possible in the way you think until we get A. More actions and/or B. Turns slow down from 20 years to 15 or 10 or 1 year
 
Therealtahu said:
We might want some forests before we waste a Wildcat Prospecting activation.
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I'm still pretty sure the forests should be at something other than 5/5; thats what it was last time we had an action list, which was before a secondary forest expansion, propagating Hatriver (which we had WoG included at least one mine's worth of forest), and 2 mines, one of which definitely took a slot, and one of which may or may not, depending on how much fuel it takes to process cinnebar. Not sure whether we'd actually have extra slots free, or if we'd just have, say, "7/7" instead of 5/5, but... @Academia Nut ?
 
bluefur87 said:
Expansion in general is the increase of our economy and provinces, with our provinces likely to favor new provinces. That drops Centralization. We also know that our provinces will not destroy a true city so it's likely they will through in some econ expansion with it. We also hope that they will get new forests, because holy shit is that needed.

And we really need to jump on the lowland province asap. That is absolutely a closing door that is painful enough to not take while working the megaproject.

I am absolutely confident our provinces will drop cent by at least one under expansion policy.
That said, if we end up needing just one more turn for the megaproject, I support this. It's rather a question of how much I expect it to actually happen.
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We are going to be at 7/8-12? in our mega one the mid turn so we have this mid turn, then the main turn after. If we are lucky that is the last turn we need and we can get it done with 8 or 9/8-12?

That's reasonable but it is quite possible that we need 10+ on the project which would be one more turn.

So at worst probably 4 updates. Crisis will be at 5 or 6 out of 4-12? so probably not over yet.

6 if it's the full 12.
 
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BungieONI said:
So at worst probably 4 updates. Crisis will be at 5 or 6 out of 4-12? so probably not over yet.

6 if it's the full 12.
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Again, the door will still be open, but it will be rapidly closing. This is establishing a province that is not only in fertile area, but literally next to what we consider our capital province. I'd really prefer that be under our control rather than anyone else's.
 
Ghostdevil said:
What I call long term plans are basically to get 2 turns in a row towards a certain thing since anything more is almost literally impossible, since 3 turns = 60 years
I just don't think Long terms are possible in the way you think until we get A. More actions and/or B. Turns slow down from 20 years to 15 or 10 or 1 year
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An example of what I'm trying to say is this: Voter A has aspirations of entering the lowlands. Voter B has plans to expand our forests. Voter C wants us to get more actions while Voter D wants a Palace done. Instead of each voter voting for 4 different options like new settlement, expand forests, trading posts and a megaproject. All 4 voters will be better off stating their long term goals and coming together and voting on an expansion policy to reach all their goals. We should try discussing our goals and possibly get compromises, favours and coalitions going. You don't need to convince 108 voters to your view point just a few groups to swing the vote your way so coalitions could be very effective in this regard. Political parties exists for a reason.
 
ETA50M said:
All 4 voters will be better off stating their long term goals and coming together and voting on an expansion policy to reach all their goals.
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My long-term goal: more actions per turn. That remains constant.

The best opportunity I can see for that is to take advantage of our neighbors' evacuation/collapse to settle more land.

We can chase that directly at the moment by simply grabbing provinces, or we can do more setup by first building roads/Palace and thus increasing admin capacity.

If new provinces do indeed decrease Centralization, then those two options synergize very well; double main new trails+switch to Expansion policy would be excellent. However, I can't see where that Cent drop is stated? It doesn't seem to be on the action list.
 
ETA50M said:
An example of what I'm trying to say is this: Voter A has aspirations of entering the lowlands. Voter B has plans to expand our forests. Voter C wants us to get more actions while Voter D wants a Palace done. Instead of each voter voting for 4 different options like new settlement, expand forests, trading posts and a megaproject. All 4 voters will be better off stating their long term goals and coming together and voting on an expansion policy to reach all their goals. We should try discussing our goals and possibly get compromises, favours and coalitions going. You don't need to convince 108 voters to your view point just a few groups to swing the vote your way so coalitions could be very effective in this regard. Political parties exists for a reason.
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In the interests of getting this on the roll what I want is:
I have four-ish sections:
Expansion
  • Not just a province but a Colony in the Lowlands, south and south-east of us. Taking the hills south of the cataracts and spreading east into the plains below Redhill.
  • Finishing the Sacred Forest without exploding.
Misc
  • Doing some Art Patronage to boost art. Another item I want but don't need. Though moreso than the North TP.
  • The North Trade Post. Really low priority, it's a novelty item for the moment.
The North
  • Supporting the North with some trails. Big time this is something I think needs to be done badly.
  • Getting a Trails innovation. Ties into above.
  • Supporting the North beyond Trails. Docks in Blackmouth and the like.
Admin
  • Do the Palace for more admin ability.
  • Do the Census.

Hey @Candesce and @pblur I think this is a good idea. Care to join in?

I can start collecting thread goals.
ThrawnCA said:
My long-term goal: more actions per turn. That remains constant.

The best opportunity I can see for that is to take advantage of our neighbors' evacuation/collapse to settle more land.

We can chase that directly at the moment by simply grabbing provinces, or we can do more setup by first building roads/Palace and thus increasing admin capacity.

If new provinces do indeed decrease Centralization, then those two options synergize very well; double main new trails+switch to Expansion policy would be excellent. However, I can't see where that Cent drop is stated? It doesn't seem to be on the action list.
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It's before your time but when we expand provinces we drop Cent. I am also wary of playing funny business with 5 Cent and a policy which may only drop us by two. Admin rolls can be a bitch.
 
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ThrawnCA said:
My long-term goal: more actions per turn. That remains constant.

The best opportunity I can see for that is to take advantage of our neighbors' evacuation/collapse to settle more land.

We can chase that directly at the moment by simply grabbing provinces, or we can do more setup by first building roads/Palace and thus increasing admin capacity.

If new provinces do indeed decrease Centralization, then those two options synergize very well; double main new trails+switch to Expansion policy would be excellent. However, I can't see where that Cent drop is stated? It doesn't seem to be on the action list.
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I would settle the available provinces we have now since they are time limited and our Palace could be done right after. We waited too long on Southshore and the Badlands before the Haythn and HK took most of them.

Generally a new settlement/province is supposed to drop centralization but I don't see the drop on the action list either. AN is planning on consoldiating our provinces so we are a really going to lose actions unless we expand. Also settling more land gives us higher caps on our stats and AN hinted at us getting something special if we ever grew to be as large the HK.
 
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Candesce said:
You might want to reconsider your valuation, here.

We're currently likely to be between 0-4 Art remaining when the Sacred Forest Renewal ends.


This is only true if the consolidation is happening from time, not number of provinces.
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I always assumed we were going to consolidate our provinces the better our admin tech got so instead of having two to three governors of various Redhill provinces they consolidate into one solid Redhill province and the same for our other provinces like Blackriver and Blackmouth.
 
BungieONI said:
Not just a province but a Colony in the Lowlands, south and south-east of us. Taking the hills south of the cataracts and spreading east into the plains below Redhill.
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The description of colonies mentions that they are supposed to be so far away that we cant effectively manage them though. Considering our capital is right next to the lowlands, a colony there might not be possible unless we expand a looooot.
 
Candesce said:
You might want to reconsider your valuation, here.

We're currently likely to be between 0-4 Art remaining when the Sacred Forest Renewal ends.
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There is that.

therealtahu has a Mechanics post so why don't I do a consolidated post of our Goals.

If people want tag me or something and I can attach your names to a goal, or suggest a goal and I'll put it in, so that everyone can see what everyone else wants without too much difficulty.
This post is going in my sig and as the most prolific poster in here, it shouldn't be hard to find. :p

PoC Thread Long Term Goals Post
​
Priority coloring: Green = very high. Gold = high. Cyan = moderate and low. Brown = long term. White = unspecified.

So goals I have seen thrown around:


Innovation Goals:
Want to get into a Golden Age.
-people who want this: BungieONI, therealtahu

Want to Study Forest.
-people who want this: BungieONI

Want more Study Actions in general.
-people who want this: BungieONI, therealtahu

Want to do Mills.
-people who want this: BungieONI, Candesce, pblur

Want to do more Main Art Patronge.
-people who want this: BungieONI, pblur

Want to fly on the backs of animals
-people who want this: SpeckofStardust

Admin Goals:
Want to build the Palace.
-people who want this: BungieONI, pbluekan, ETA50M, fictionfan, Killer_Whale, therealtahu, pblur

Want to build the Census.
-people who want this: BungieONI, pbluekan, ETA50M, therealtahu, pblur

Want more Trails.
-people who want this: BungieONI, pbluekan, ETA50M, fictionfan, Killer_Whale, pblur

Want one to several Double Main Trails.
-people who want this: ETA50M, therealtahu

Want to directly rule the Landmass we are on.
-people who want this: SpeckofStardust

Want to directly rule the planet we are on.
-people who want this: SpeckofStardust

Expansion Goals:
Want a Colony in the Lowlands.
-people who want this: BungieONI, ETA50M

Want to convert Greenshore to a Colony.
-people who want this: ETA50M

Want to make a South Cataracts(Badland/Lowland) Province.
-people who want this: ETA50M, Killer_Whale, pblur

Want to make a Far East Redhill Province.
-people who want this: ETA50M, Killer_Whale, pblur

Want to make a Far North East Redhill Province.
-people who want this: ETA50M, Killer_Whale, pblur

Want more actions.
-people who want this: ThrawnCA

Expand into Entire Lowlands.
-people who want this: Killer_Whale, ETA50M

Expand Around Not!Black Sea and Become World Trade Capital
-people who want this: Killer_Whale, pblur

Want to Terraform another world.
-people who want this: SpeckofStardust

Want to make New Settlements.
-people who want this:

Want to build the Dam.
-people who want this: pblur

Trade and Exploration Goals:
Want Dominant in Wine, Glass, and other products.
-people who want this: BungieONI

Want the North Trade Post.
-people who want this: BungieONI, pblur

Want to make a Trelli Trade Post.
-people who want this: BungieONI, therealtahu, pblur

Want to do Sailing Missions Into the Wild.
-people who want this: BungieONI

Want to build/expand Salterns.
-people who want this: BungieONI, bluefur87, ETA50M, therealtahu

Want to do Survey's.
-people who want this: BungieONI, pblur

The North:
Want to support the North.
-people who want this: BungieONI, ETA50M, therealtahu

Want more Trails.
-people who want this: BungieONI, ETA50M

Want to build/expand Salterns.
-people who want this: BungieONI, bluefur87, ETA50M, pblur

Want to make the North Canal if integrate the Stallions.
-people who want this: ETA50M, pblur

Want to raise Diplo and then integrate the Stallions.
-people who want this: [color= green]ETA50M[/color], Killer_Whale, therealtahu

Want to raise Diplo and after the Stallion integrate parts of West Wall.
-people who want this: [color= cyan]ETA50M[/color]

Want to raise Diplo and then propagate the Stallions.
-people who want this: pblur

Diplomacy:

Resources:
Want more forest.
-people who want this: Candesce, BungieONI, pblur

Want a mine after a Survey.
-people who want this:

Want to Expand Vineyard.
-people who want this: pblur, BungieONI

Want Northshore Dock.
-people who want this: pblur


​
Okay that's the start. As can be seen there is some overlap. I'll put out a request that I want to hear what people want to do. This way we can get some clarity and more effectively get what we all want.
Don't worry. When the name counts get long(if they do, I hope so) I'll spoiler those too.​
CeBrudras said:
The description of colonies mentions that they are supposed to be so far away that we cant effectively manage them though. Considering our capital is right next to the lowlands, a colony there might not be possible unless we expand a looooot.
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I'm uncertainly hopeful we can get a Colony in the center of the Lowlands because when West Wall started it was not actually that far from Valleyhome. It's also a Administrative work around that lets us control it without popping our system.
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BungieONI said:
I'll put out a request that I want to here what people want to do.
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Add to your innovation goals: Mills.

Not one of our more efficient actions, but it's an action that both nets us econ and increases our LTE significantly without leaving our civilization more disconnected or militarily vulnerable, and some of those techs it will generate are big.
 
ETA50M said:
I don't know what your talking about, could you be a bit more specific? I didn't pay much attention to discussions around that time the thread moved too fast for me to keep up.
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When we were building the temple, a small group of voters started voting strategically to force a tie. The thread was salty.
 
Candesce said:
Add to your innovation goals: Mills.

Not one of our more efficient actions, but it's an action that both nets us econ and increases our LTE significantly without leaving our civilization more disconnected or militarily vulnerable, and some of those techs it will generate are big.
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TRIP HAMMERS!!!




Heh. Will do.

E: and done with Art Patronage added.
 
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BungieONI said:
I'll put out a request that I want to here what people want to do.
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Saltern needs to be added to trade. It's actually a bit cheaper than a trade post since econ is easier to generate and we'll have to spend time defending a trade post.

I'm sorry, but while trails is a relatively high priority, we have both better ways of helping the north (expand vineyard, aqueducts, temple), but we also have a smaller window in the lowlands for getting something set up.

I'd totally be down with a colony in the lowlands if that's an option. I don't think it is or will be though.
 
Watermill Innovation List:

Green is implemented.

Yellow is in development.

Technical Upgrade/Innovation:

  • Waterwheel -> Water Turbine (industrial era)
  • Watermill -> Windmill
  • Ship mill
  • Tide mill
  • Team boat - Waterwheel propulsion powered by animals.
  • Noria Technical innovations still possible. (300 AD)
  • Ballista - Not waterwheel operated but stemmed from knowledge of waterwheels. (400 BC circa)
  • Triphammer (China - 50 BC, Greco-Roman world, 3rd century BC - 1st century AD?)

Applications:

  • Gristmill
  • Hammer Forge
  • Blademill
  • Barkmill
  • Blast Furnace
  • Paper mill
  • Oil mill - crush seeds into oil
  • Sawmill
  • Powder mill
  • Water pumping
    • Noria
  • Ore Crusher
 
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