Depends how low Econ goes, but generally its a 1:1 exchange between Econ and Centralization.



More Fishing, Farms (Step or Regular), or Pasture land should keep things stable. However, given the military necessities, investing in the military is probably a good idea, even if it will be disruptive.

Also, the expedition won't necessarily chase the nomads out onto the plains, it is just that you are compelled to fight it out. Failure to pay back the attack this turn is unlikely to cause problems, but the score needs to be settled in some way eventually.
Anyway, yeah. The bolded cannot be emphasized enough.

Investing in war carts is a good idea even after factoring potential short term starvation risks. Word of AN.

We will be compelled to attack until we get our pound of flesh. If this turn's war party doesn't do satisfactory damage, next turn it's likely that War Party will be locked in as Main. We are not able to hunker down and let them break upon our defenses as long as Eye for an Eye is not satisfied
 
Plus, I have objections to war carts itself. Being a defensive hill tribe, I want to encourage spears and pikes to play to our strengths.

We can choose to use our inferior war carts to fight theirs at a disadvantage, or we can force our infantry to fight their cavalry at a major disadvantage, and thus encourage military innovation.

Long sharp stick isn't too crazy an idea, so let's make it happen sooner rather than later.
We won't be fighting pitched battles. We'll be fighting off raids and conducting counter-raids, and the fact that they're nomads means that war carts would be required to effectively take the fight to them. We can't play defensive because Eye for an Eye demands we get vengeance.

I'm also not sure where you're getting pikes from. Those require large numbers of densely packed troops and are meant to combat large concentrations of enemy infantry in pitched battles, not chariot raider nomads.
 
Last edited:
That sounds a bit like you're reaching. The QM as our economy adviser straight up said that it is a better idea to invest in the military then it is to worry about our economic stability right now. The adviser isn't trying to mislead us he is giving us straight facts.

We are at war now and our civilization can tank the hit to its economy. It'll hurt but we will recover.
The Qm AS OUR ECONOMIC ADVISOR
I mean this isn't the QM coming down as God giving us help, he is using an IC pov to advise us.
But lets disregard that IC advice.
Investing in Wagons is Stupid, because we don't have the money or food or resources. We are risking losing centralization and since the QM likely isn't going to let our big mistakes go like nothing is going to punish us. I wouldn't be surprised if we get setback on the blight fight.
 
Plus, I have objections to war carts itself. Being a defensive hill tribe, I want to encourage spears and pikes to play to our strengths.

We can choose to use our inferior war carts to fight theirs at a disadvantage, or we can force our infantry to fight their cavalry at a major disadvantage, and thus encourage military innovation.

Long sharp stick isn't too crazy an idea, so let's make it happen sooner rather than late
Or that would just end up with all our dudes getting killed off.

That in turn could just set off our Eye for an Eye trait even worse.
 
My position is flopping like a rainbow trout on the deck of a ship.
[X] Formalize breaking and exposure
[X] Any who are interested may join the fight
[X][Secondary] Build War Carts
 
Last edited:
I'll go purely by the cost-analysis of the actions.
We improve economy this turn. Despite our best efforts, we probably hit 0 economy (maybe even -1). The following turn, unless we want to tank a hit to our stability AND centralization, we have to spend at least two of our three actions (possibly all 3 at once if we lost badly enough) restoring our armed forces and declaring a fresh revenge raid on them.

NET ECON GAINED OVER THE TWO TURNS: 1-2

We get more carts this turn. We're liable to hit -1 or even -2 economy, which means we'll take at least one, maybe two hits to centralization this turn, but we win, appeasing Eye for an Eye. The following turn, we spend all three actions improving our economy.

NET ECON GAINED OVER THE TWO TURNS: 3-4

Can you really argue that even in the short term mindlessly trying to push economy will work out?
 
Oh yeah, we were led by a she-demon once. What was it she gave us again? Ah yes, glory, warcarts and adorable babies.

[X] Skull-smashing and anonymous burial
[X] Any who are interested may join the fight
[X] [Secondary] Build War Carts
The babies of the People are always adorable.
 
The Qm AS OUR ECONOMIC ADVISOR
I mean this isn't the QM coming down as God giving us help, he is using an IC pov to advise us.
But lets disregard that IC advice.
When your economic advisor just tells you it'd hurt less to have economy hit 0 than to try to raid horse nomads without mobility...and you just disregard it?

We can make up Centralization easily, and have in fact done so repeatedly
 
The Qm AS OUR ECONOMIC ADVISOR
I mean this isn't the QM coming down as God giving us help, he is using an IC pov to advise us.
But lets disregard that IC advice.
Investing in Wagons is Stupid, because we don't have the money or food or resources. We are risking losing centralization and since the QM likely isn't going to let our big mistakes go like nothing is going to punish us. I wouldn't be surprised if we get setback on the blight fight.
Exactly, he's our economic advisor, not our war advisor.

We are finishing the blight problem this very turn, they are not reaching our valley. Don't attempt to fearmonger like that.
 
I'll go purely by the cost-analysis of the actions.
We improve economy this turn. Despite our best efforts, we probably hit 0 economy (maybe even -1). The following turn, unless we want to tank a hit to our stability AND centralization, we have to spend at least two of our three actions (possibly all 3 at once if we lost badly enough) restoring our armed forces and declaring a fresh revenge raid on them.

NET ECON GAINED OVER THE TWO TURNS: 1-2

We get more carts this turn. We're liable to hit -1 or even -2 economy, which means we'll take at least one, maybe two hits to centralization this turn, but we win, appeasing Eye for an Eye. The following turn, we spend all three actions improving our economy.

NET ECON GAINED OVER THE TWO TURNS: 3-4

Can you really argue that even in the short term mindlessly trying to push economy will work out?
Except your pulling that out of your ass, You have NOWAY of knowing that we will instantly lose this turn, the qm has affirmed that we can wait until the next turn, and that's ignoring the chance that we lose despite building carts which will CRIPPLE us for several turns at the least
 
Except your pulling that our of your ass, You have NOWAY of knowing that we will instantly lose this turn, the qm has affirmed that we can wait until the next turn, and that's ignoring the chance that we lose despite building carts which will CRIPPLE us for several turns at the least
Yes, I am not accounting for the unlikely outcome of the war given either choice. My apologies for trying to account for what we can probably agree is maybe 60/40 to lose or 60/40 to win depending on which direction we go with our action this turn.

I also specifically accounted for the following turn, if you bothered to read a damn thing I wrote.
 
Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 193 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.5

[X] Any who are interested may join the fight
No. of Votes: 51
Dirk93
Arbit
bluefur87
Chrestomanci
Citino
Crowhunter
Ct613hulu
ctulhuslp
Deadly Snark
Duesal
Ephemeral_Dreamer
Eri
ETA50M
Ghostdevil
godofsmallthings
Hangwind
highs2lows
hylas240
Ian Drash
keenscythe
Killer_Whale
Lone Wolf 666
Malevolo
Mannan
minerva-n-memes
Motoko
Neptune
NotAlwaysFanfic
notgreat
Omegahugger
pbluekan
Potato and Chip
Powerofmind
redzonejoe
ScreenWatcher
Sightsear
Sivantic
Skjadir
SpeckofStardust
Spectrum
Speed53066
Theunderbolt
UbeOne
Umi-san
Varano
veekie
Versharl
Wellhello
Xantalos
zamin
Zoxabels

[X] Formalize breaking and exposure
No. of Votes: 28
Deadly Snark
Arbit
Chiperninerm
Chrestomanci
Citino
Crowhunter
Duesal
Ephemeral_Dreamer
ETA50M
Ghostdevil
highs2lows
Ian Drash
keenscythe
Killer_Whale
Malevolo
Mannan
Neptune
NotAlwaysFanfic
pbluekan
Potato and Chip
redzonejoe
Sightsear
Sivantic
Speed53066
Theunderbolt
Versharl
Xantalos
Zoxabels

[x] Skull-smashing and anonymous burial
No. of Votes: 20
Dirk93
bluefur87
Ct613hulu
ctulhuslp
Eri
godofsmallthings
hylas240
McLuvin
minerva-n-memes
Motoko
Omegahugger
Skjadir
SpeckofStardust
Spectrum
UbeOne
Umi-san
Varano
veekie
Wellhello
zamin

[X] Build War Carts
No. of Votes: 5
Deadly Snark
minerva-n-memes
Powerofmind
Theunderbolt
Zoxabels

[X] Burning at the stake
No. of Votes: 5
Powerofmind
Arcus2611
Hangwind
Lone Wolf 666
notgreat

[X]Step-Farms
No. of Votes: 3
Ephemeral_Dreamer
Chrestomanci
Ghostdevil

[x] Call upon friendships
No. of Votes: 2
McLuvin
Chiperninerm

[x] Expand Pastures
No. of Votes: 1
Dirk93

[X] Expand Farms
No. of Votes: 1
Ian Drash

[X] Hanging and display
No. of Votes: 1
ScreenWatcher


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Secondary

[X][Secondary] Step-Farms
No. of Votes: 22
bluefur87
Crowhunter
Ct613hulu
Duesal
Eri
ETA50M
godofsmallthings
Kiba
Lone Wolf 666
Malevolo
Mannan
Motoko
redzonejoe
Skjadir
SpeckofStardust
Speed53066
UbeOne
Varano
Versharl
VoidZero
Xantalos
zamin

[X][Secondary] Build War Carts
No. of Votes: 21
hylas240
Andres110
Arbit
Chiperninerm
ctulhuslp
Hangwind
highs2lows
Killer_Whale
McLuvin
NotAlwaysFanfic
notgreat
Omegahugger
pbluekan
Potato and Chip
Power
Sightsear
Sivantic
Spectrum
Umi-san
veekie
Wellhello

[X] [Secondary] Expand Fishing
No. of Votes: 3
Neptune
Citino
keenscythe

Total No. of Voters: 58
Thought people might want this.

Looking like a slight win for Warcarts if you include the votes without [Secondary]
 
You have NOWAY of knowing that we will instantly lose this turn
We do know this. This is historical that surprisingly, raiding horse nomads doesn't work without good cavalry.

If you are lucky, you chase shadows. If not, they just hit and run you to death by skirmishes.

the qm has affirmed that we can wait until the next turn,
He had ALSO confirmed that we are locked into attacking this turn. Whether we are succeeding or failing on that attack determines whether the grudge continues, gets worse, or ends.
 
He had ALSO confirmed that we are locked into attacking this turn. Whether we are succeeding or failing on that attack determines whether the grudge continues, gets worse, or ends.
I know, and it kills me since it puts us into the absolute worse position... well not the worse, that's probably next turn if we lose (especially if we lose with the carts option picked) I am trying to mitigate that loss or if we win Maximize our econ gain
Yes, I am not accounting for the unlikely outcome of the war given either choice. My apologies for trying to account for what we can probably agree is maybe 60/40 to lose or 60/40 to win depending on which direction we go with our action this turn.

I also specifically accounted for the following turn, if you bothered to read a damn thing I wrote.
First off, its probably extremely short sighted to not consider the worse case scenario but w/e
But your still pulling the numbers our your ass, since that takes in the best case scenario... for your side and the meh scenario for my side so yea.
 
Last edited:
[X] Formalize breaking and exposure
[X] Any who are interested may join the fight
[X][Secondary] Build War Carts

Vote changed to War Carts
 
The Qm AS OUR ECONOMIC ADVISOR
Yes, exactly. Our economic advisor, the one whose sole purpose is monitoring and advising us on the state of the economy told us that it was a better idea to invest in our military then it was to stablize our economy right now.

I don't understand why you think our economy adviser doesn't know what they are talking about. They gave us advice, you are ignoring it and that is totally fine. You can make choices other then what our advisers suggest. But please don't act like the adviser is purposefully misleading us.

Investing in Wagons is Stupid, because we don't have the money or food or resources.
We do. We just don't have as much as historically we are used to.

We are risking losing centralization and since the QM likely isn't going to let our big mistakes go like nothing is going to punish us. I wouldn't be surprised if we get setback on the blight fight.
Why? Our civilization has an ability where we can use centralization in place of economy for emergencies. This is an emergency. Thus we use our civilization's emergency power.

After this turn is over our economy will recover and we will be able to recover any centralization lost.

We have no choice but to fight this turn, our civilization's trait of An Eye For An Eye means we cannot play this defensively either. So either we sacrifice some centralization this turn and get this war out of the way right now, or we have this war drag on as we constantly get attacked.
 
Last edited:
I know, and it kills me since it puts us into the absolute worse position... well not the worse, that's probably next turn if we lose (especially if we lose with the carts option picked) I am trying to mitigate that loss or if we win Maximize our econ gain if we win

First off, its probably extremely short sighted to not consider the worse case scenario but w/e
But your still pulling the numbers our your ass, since that takes in the best case scenario... for your side and the meh scenario for my side so yea.
Meh? Really now? I could argue that with the exact same roll of 50 in each situation, I am not taking more for mine and implying the worst case for yours. On the contrary, we are specifically to be given some additional sub-turns to manage our little war. I imagine you could probably push an economic turn as high as 60% to win, but in the same vein you could probably push the warcart turn as high as 80-90%.

Frankly I feel I'm being disproportionately generous with the odds of an economy turn winning this war expedition.

Worst case scenario, we critically fail the war and have jack fuck all for military power next turn, which, in either case, forces us to put all of our actions towards it lest we upset the dramatically more severe eye for an eye penalty that a crit-failure would produce.

But at least if we crit-failed with military vote going through, we might have something left in the tank, rather than nothing at all.
 
Yes, exactly. Our economic advisor, the one whose sole purpose is monitoring and advising us on the state of the economy told us that it was a better idea to invest in our military then it was to stablize our economy right now.

I don't understand why you think our economy adviser doesn't know what they are talking about. They gave us advice, you are ignoring it and that is totally fine. You can make choices other then what our advisers suggest. But please don't act like the adviser is purposefully misleading us.


We do. We just don't have as much as historically we are used to.


Why? Our civilization has an ability where we can use centralization in place of economy for emergencies. This is an emergency. Thus we use our civilization's emergency power.

After this turn is over our economy will recover and we will be able to recover any centralization lost.

We have no choice but to fight this turn, our civilization's trait of An Eye For An Eye means we cannot play this defensively either. So either we sacrifice some centralization this turn and get this war out of the way right now, or we have this war drag on as we constantly get attacked.
Its possible that our adviser only feels that it is justified due to the effects of Eye for an Eye
 
Last edited:
We won't be fighting pitched battles. We'll be fighting off raids and conducting counter-raids, and the fact that they're nomads means that war carts would be required to effectively take the fight to them. We can't play defensive because Eye for an Eye demands we get vengeance.

I'm also not sure where you're getting pikes from. Those require large numbers of densely packed troops and are meant to combat large concentrations of enemy infantry in pitched battles, not chariot raider nomads.
Some guy asked if we can use an action to develop pikes n' junk, AN responded by telling him we'd naturally create anti-cavalry weapons if we have to fight cavalry.

My position here is suggesting that instead of cavalry v cavalry combat, we focus on turning infantry into anti-cavalry. This will happen sooner if we're not looking into our own wagons as the necessary solution.
Or that would just end up with all our dudes getting killed off.

That in turn could just set off our Eye for an Eye trait even worse.
It wouldn't kill all of our dudes off, surely. Then the ones that survive are more motivated to develop anti-cav tech!
 
Some guy asked if we can use an action to develop pikes n' junk, AN responded by telling him we'd naturally create anti-cavalry weapons if we have to fight cavalry.

My position here is suggesting that instead of cavalry v cavalry combat, we focus on turning infantry into anti-cavalry. This will happen sooner if we're not looking into our own wagons as the necessary solution.
But we aren't fighting riding cavalry(which rely on shock more and are weak to spearwalls). This is a two man chariot, where one guy drives while the other works either a bow or a spear, typically dismounting to fight before driving away once the odds turn.

They were countered primarily by archers on the defense and other chariots on the offense.

This isn't strictly cavalry so much as mechanized infantry.
 
People should remember to use the dice function if they are torn between options.

Just like what happened to the trade mission, so make your wish at cast!

 
Last edited:
Back
Top