Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Alright, let me take a step back and see if I can figure out what will happen here. I've been tossing ideas around my head quite a bit and I think I'm looking at things differently now, since I've actually been putting serious thought into it.
- Size: Path of the barge. These will be large, slow moving ships that have to hug the coast completely and stick to rivers. The sea trading power will be close to non existent but trading along rivers will be very strong.
- Portability: Path of the raider. These ships will ultimately be the most maneuverable ships, able to get into the smallest of nooks, and all around simply the best war ships.
- Speed: Path of the sea. Why, yes, size is what let's you get out into the deep oceans, but what let's you build up that big and survive at sea is having the knowledge of how to move a ship without it tipping over. These ships will be what lets us explore the not!black sea, ultimately.
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- Location
- Philippines
I do wonder how come law enforcement use tear gas rather than weed to quell riots the end result should be relatively the same but using weed could prevent people being hurt and could make it easier to capture whoever started the riots int the first place
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Actually both speed AND size leads to exploring the sea, speed isn't nearly enough. Size is VERY important since it leads to actual true ships
We aren't getting into the actual sea for a long time. Period. At the very least we will need navigation tech, which is a long ways off.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Which is counter to your own point of speed = to the sea eventually
When it still requires Size, speed AND navigation
Size is mainly important on the ocean. There's really no reason to expect us to require that any time soon, if we can reach the Metal Workers with our current ships we can explore much of the remaining Black Sea.
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Size is also important for Goods, moving resources to distant locations needs big ships or it means MORE trips and more expenses
No, my point is by making an initial ship based around speed, the design will focus on not tipping over due to the speeds it travels. As such, it can much more safely explore the coast of the not!black sea, where as a barge would get almost nowhere against the waves. It's initial design wasn't made to take into account speed.
This is actually a very big problem for us now that I'm looking at it, as we need both size and speed since we have multiple river systems that are connected via a sea. So we need one ship for the river systems, and another for ocean travel, and they'll both be relatively useless without the other. Well, not relatively, but not nearly as strong as we want.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
It wouldn't make sense narratively to ignore such a problem with ANY of the designs, so our people should be thinking of a way to make our barges able to go faster to a speed that's reasonable. Anything less wouldn't make as much sense since its counter productive
Get the trading partners first, then worry about how economical the trips are. Faster ships and portability are much more suited to exploration than big ships right now.
Speed is more important than size for exploration because it reduces the amount of supplies required to explore- bigger ships can take more supplies, but consume more supplies, and generally make exploration expensive. Portability allows us to go places we couldn't before, and explore more thoroughly.
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- Location
- Austria
1. You mean 'does not mean in the long term', in which case,yes, portability is superior.
2. What? If this choice influences long-term design philosophy, then it probably implies that you either focus on size or you, you know, don't. I doubt we'll be able to have out cake and eat it. So it's 'we make our ships big first, then haul grain in drought years to the north because now we can do it', or something. Yeah, it's probably some king of barge, as opposed to some sort of longboat or whatever is the speed option.
Eh? It depends on the type of the land, I guess. Not sure they'll be good at naval fighting.
Also, amusingly enough, flat barges are actually what's used for transporting the goods through rivers, so there is that too.
PttS may actually be helpful for this.
But we want to go further though? At least I want to go to not!Egypt, look at their trade goods and stuff. Maybe explore even further.
On second thought, size is good if we want to focus more on trade. Do we and will we do so? So far we've been doing...not trade, mainly.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Why would we need trading partners? Though I want those to, but it isn't Necessary to move goods at least not exclusively
Getting goods to distant portions of our lands is the MOST important, we already dominant in trade in our region and there is zero indication that were is dire or even in need at all of new trading partners.
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The Spirit Talkers if they kept going might have been.
At the same time, every culture found it's own way to Size. Because once you meet your immediate needs, bigger helps. So it is very unlikely to assume that any start would be limited to small sizes.
Riverine cultures generally went for Portable->Size, abandoning speed because...well on rivers the top speed is pretty limited.
Just as Archipelago cultures generally went for Speed->Size, taking only enough Portability to deal with reefs via rowboats.
Size is currently useless for goods since there's no destinations we can park the ships at for several generations.
Portability is currently critical for goods, because more goods sources and destinations are on rivers than on coasts
I don't want to generate that kind of disincentive towards shipbuilding when we make big boats we can't deliver goods with because nobody has the facilities to receive them
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
maybe we should change our approach
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Have the law favour lumping
[X] [Law] Have the law favour splitting
[X] [Law] Leave things be
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
I'm expecting a debilitating belief The Folly of Kings.
-1 Stability whenever we override the admin chief.
[X] [Law] Have the law favour lumping
[X] [Law] Have the law favour splitting
[X] [Law] Leave things be
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
I'm expecting a debilitating belief The Folly of Kings.
-1 Stability whenever we override the admin chief.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Then we build em, big ships are good for logistics since we can deliver resources in bigger quantities, it should also narratively lower any costs of doing things in distant parts of our lands
After the docks are built ofcourse
If we have no interest in foreign trade then portability is absolutely the top priority, as it makes riverine trade and coastal trade in places without docks much easier. Basically, portable means learning how to make lighter boats with shallower keels that are not so good on the open sea but able to trade basically anywhere. Given we don't need to go out to sea to reach our own lands it's a no-brainer for portability for domestic trade.
Yes.
Which means the new design for ships are basically useless for a whole generation(30 years), maybe 2-3 generations because we're committing to finishing the Saltern and coping with various assimilation fallouts
Coming up with a new design you can't use discourages that build strategy
- Location
- Illinois
Not true, actually. AN stated that we could offload them without docks, but we need to find a beach and use the high tide. Cuts down on where we can offload them, but there would still be plenty of options.
Also, thinking further on it, choosing size would make our marches and coastal provinces jump into dock building, which would spur boatbuilding even more, which is a pretty nice benefit.
Also lowland trade. Because a portable boat can be carried past the cataracts from the Badlands settlement and then trade anywhere along the river, all the way down to the Swamp people...and there's little to intercept the trade until the HK develops significant naval forces while stuck in a land war.
Not that many sites. I'd point out that beaches with suitable high tides are....saltern sites. It's the same requirement.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
I think that you misunderstand just how rare rockless beaches are.
- Location
- Illinois
Which implies that our boats/provinces are now going to be looking for saltern sites even without main government support.
What about the dock building incentives from size though? Size makes docks a must for the marches, and our coastal provinces will be drooling over the idea as well.
Probably, I live on Lake Michigan, so my view of how water travel works is pretty skewed.
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DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Blame "reefer madness"