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Paths of Civilization

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Hangwind said:
Now, look. I know that people are wary of the idea of guilds, since they do tend to stifle innovation. HOWEVER! We are get automatic innovation bonuses from our Mysticism anyway. More, the guilds can act as back ups for the practical knowledge of our civilization; letting it survive even if our current People don't. So vote Occupational today!
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Individual guilds aren't going to survive a civilization collapse any better than the individual operators. If you're really concerned about that, geographic removes the incentives to hoard important knowledge and experience among a deliberately scare few and instead encourages spreading it to everyone who can make any use of it.
 
[x][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)

[x][Main] Great Temple
[x][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[x][Secondary] Enforce Justice x2

I think Enforce Justice is better than Enforce Law if we're trying to test new laws at the same time, so I'm willing to do both. Wouldn't have been as happy doing it with Enforce Law.

[x][CA] Xohyssiri

Listening to arguments on this one, but I'd really rather not pick up a raiding trait, and the Xoh seem to have cut back on that these days. I suppose I could go for the Thunder Speakers, too.
 
So since we are campaigning for our preffered vote may I convince you guys to vite Xoh to get back GG? Also how about

[] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
VoidZero said:
[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justicex2

[x] [CA] Xohyssiri

[x] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)

I'm sure we wouldn't step into caste system. (Even if some of our people are trapped in half-exile duties for generations.):p

Hereditary nobility is ok too. <-- might flip to other side.

Also, HK being greedy stealing our iron weapons tools of peace.
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May I convince you to change one of your enforce justice to a grand sacrifice for a guaranteed +2 Stab? You as well @Candesce?
 
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Somebody should make a negaverse omake of the king getting kicked out, and much salt for how the Ymaryn basically massacred the western nomads.
 
Academia Nut said:
Geographical would have started off with the district chiefs (similar to clan heads and village chiefs) being selected via the pseudo-meritocratic but mostly nepotistic methods already in play, but the process would be much more noticeably unfair to the population. District leaders would be equivalent to clan leaders or village chiefs.

Occupational would sort out the number of layers based on population, meaning that it would also partially be a geographic division. And yes, those lower down in the hierarchy would vote on who to move higher up the hierarchy, until eventually you would have a Valleyhome Mason Chief, who might be second only to the overall Mason Chief in terms of representing masons in the kingdom.
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Here's the QM's info on Occupational vs Geographical @No7sHere
 
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Lailoken said:
Individual guilds aren't going to survive a civilization collapse any better than the individual operators. If you're really concerned about that, geographic removes the incentives to hoard important knowledge and experience among a deliberately scare few and instead encourages spreading it to everyone who can make any use of it.
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Individual guilds won't, but the knowledge will.
 
Just as a reminded, Passive Econ Loss is actually 2. 1 from True City, 1 from Megaproject.

Also a reminder that we won't get it perfect the first time. That is how it works. Our job is to improve the system.

[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)

[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice x2

[X][CA] Xohyssiri

After all the hate, I am glad they have turned around and offer good traits.
 
Reader of all said:
So since we are campaigning for our preffered vote may I convince you guys to vite Xoh to get back GG? Also how about

[] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[] [Secondary] Enforce Justice

May I convince you to change one of your enforce justice to a grand sacrifice for a guaranteed +2 Stab? You as well @Candesce?
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GG is gone at end of prior turn, so it's not on the table sadly.:(

And i kinda want to see the shenanigans main enfore justice would incur.:V
 
Hangwind said:
Simple: You can change guilds. Castes are forever. Saying that Occupational is a Caste system is like saying that Geographical is a Serfdom system; entirely over-dramatic.
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I don't agree on either point: 1) you can change caste systems by marriage, it's just difficult, 2) you can't change guilds because a) you'd likely have to go through the entire journeyman process once again, b) the guild you left would hate you and probably have the power to pursue that hate, and c) for any job where you don't have to relearn everything would be so close to your old job that you'd be suspected of giving away guild secrets. People under guild systems did not change guilds, at best their children did.

If you're in a geographical system people are more likely to be united by location across class and occupational bounds.

McLuvin said:
QM's already told us what the results of each option would be and what they would turn out to be, Guilds are the least corrupt, most meritocratic and most effective of all the options,
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Why would we care about it being meritocratic? We're trying to make each area as organized and effective as possible. This is resource administration more than it is a power hierarchy. In regards to administration geography is the best choice.
 
VoidZero said:
GG is gone at end of prior turn, so it's not on the table sadly.:(
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But the Xoh have become a fairly peaceful trading society, meaning that we won't hate anything we get from them. Besides, we might be able to merge what we get with cosmopolitan acceptance since their traits probably facilitate trade.
 
[X][Clan] Roll back, institute geographic administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)

[X][Main] Great Temple
[][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[][Secondary] Enforce Justice x2

[X][CA] Xohyssiri
 
You know, I just realized why our people have grown to like the Xoh so much, it's because we kept taking the Greater Good trait, bringing our culture closer to theirs.

[x] [Main] Great Temple
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[x] [Secondary] Enforce Justicex2

[x] [CA] Xohyssiri

[x] [Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
 
Umi-san said:
Why would we care about it being meritocratic? We're trying to make each area as organized and effective as possible. This is resource administration more than it is a power hierarchy. In regards to administration geography is the best choice.
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I thought some people are completely against cementing hereditary anything? Location based power structure/order would lead to powerful local families anyway.:V

Sure occupational based is likely to be similar, but it adds competency requirements to be elected by their professionals.
 
mc2rpg said:
I wonder how long it is going to take them to figure out iron now that they have samples that can rust.
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it took us a nat 100 innovate roll- they're not gonna pick it up that quick. more likely they'll think that the secret magic weapons are breaking down outside of the hands of their rightful owners.
 
Umi-san said:
If you're in a geographical system people are more likely to be united by location across class and occupational bounds.
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McLuvin said:
Here's the QM's info on Occupational vs Geographical @No7sHere
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Read this post. We'd be increasing nepotism and stratification.

Umi-san said:
I don't agree on either point: 1) you can change caste systems by marriage, it's just difficult, 2) you can't change guilds because a) you'd likely have to go through the entire journeyman process once again, b) the guild you left would hate you and probably have the power to pursue that hate, and c) for any job where you don't have to relearn everything would be so close to your old job that you'd be suspected of giving away guild secrets. People under guild systems did not change guilds, at best their children did.
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1) What? No, with most caste systems, you really couldn't. At least not upwards.
2) Probably not. Remember, the main driver of our innovation is our priests. They distribute the knowledge, meaning that no guild is likely to have any real secrets or reason to pursue someone leaving. Instead, the guilds will be a mostly political thing, like unions are now.
 
mc2rpg said:
I wonder how long it is going to take them to figure out iron now that they have samples that can rust.
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Eh. That's why we have Love of Wisdom to propel us.

It's hard to steal the secrets of why some societies are more innovative than others. Social systems are not easily replicable, even if you can see it, smell it, talk to it, etc.

See third world countries.
 
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