Actually I'm against reversing the whole thing,
1 cause it sounds like it would cost us even more Stab, something we cannot allow to happen at the moment
2. if you look at it, it actually worked until people started to actively fuck with it in order to rock the boat for political advantages, therefore I think the safer solution would be to place counterweights & balances on it until it works,
It would also avoid letting us look incompetent, something we should definitly avoid in case there is really somekind of snake or shadowgroup that acts against our interests, as it would present them with the oppurtunity to agitate our population further, maybe even start some riots as a cover action or convince our warriors to rebell outright
So your solution to our mistake of fucking with the clans is to.... keep fucking with the clans.


Please note there has been no benefit whatsoever with messing with the clan system, at all so far, only more and more trouble, more political corruption, rise in crime gangs and now outright unwanted attacks on our neighbors.


Stop trying to justify your mistake, just admit it was a mistake in the first place and move on.
 
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Sounds to me more like capturing the warriors & escorting them back into our territory, leaving the village undefended while we investigate the incident & then send a real diplomatic mission in order to apologize & give weregild
Considering our traits, speficialy Protective Justice, leaving the village undefended doesn't sound like something the Ymaryn would do. Besides if we leave the village undefended and it does get raided we would have to pay more reparitions and negotiations would be harder.
From the travel times involved it would make more sense to send the diplomats with the warriors send to retrive the attacking warriors, so that can start initial negotiations as soon as possible. The main risk of war here comes from bad timing, when the Highlanders arrive before or at the same time as us and come to the conclusion that we are starting an invasion.

Edit: Or at least that's the impression I got on how things are planned with the capture option.
 
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Actually I'm against reversing the whole thing,
1 cause it sounds like it would cost us even more Stab, something we cannot allow to happen at the moment
2. if you look at it, it actually worked until people started to actively fuck with it in order to rock the boat for political advantages, therefore I think the safer solution would be to place counterweights & balances on it until it works,
It would also avoid letting us look incompetent, something we should definitly avoid in case there is really somekind of snake or shadowgroup that acts against our interests, as it would present them with the oppurtunity to agitate our population further, maybe even start some riots as a cover action or convince our warriors to rebell outright
Like... okay? Cool?

I'm not either way about it, I find the implication I read here that I want to back out right now to be weird. I have to get the update and then consider it first. I am strongly considering going for the back out option based on the current situation, but that is very much not me meaning "I will back out. Period." I think it's a very silly move to say you are one thing or the other in this situation, when we demonstratively do not have enough information.

AN's taught me a valuable lesson with this update. Ask questions. Lots of them. And always plot out the consequences for all options fairly.
 
Actually I'm against reversing the whole thing,
1 cause it sounds like it would cost us even more Stab, something we cannot allow to happen at the moment
2. if you look at it, it actually worked until people started to actively fuck with it in order to rock the boat for political advantages, therefore I think the safer solution would be to place counterweights & balances on it until it works,
It would also avoid letting us look incompetent, something we should definitly avoid in case there is really somekind of snake or shadowgroup that acts against our interests, as it would present them with the oppurtunity to agitate our population further, maybe even start some riots as a cover action or convince our warriors to rebell outright

If a system is not robust enough to stand up to people trying to maliciously exploit it it is fundamentally unworkable.
 
So your solution to our mistake of fucking with the clans is to.... keep fucking with the clans.


Please note there has been no benefit whatsoever with messing with the clan system, at all so far, only more and more trouble, more political corruption, rise in crime gangs and now outright unwanted attacks on our neighbors.

As I noted before, it worked for the problems it was meant to solve, so it has definitly benefits, and while I admit it has definitly caused trouble I also have to point out that the trouble comes from people actively messing with the rules, so my suggestion was to make laws & create balances to prevent such an abuse, which definitly causes less chaos & damage to our society then a roll back would cause

Also both the political corruption & the rise of crime gangs happened before the whole thing and both have different roots

The political corruption comes from our government system as people try out other was to gain political power as the legal way is blocked from them
The crime gangs come from the city + the military overflow

So could you please stop being so salty, or at least take a break and come back when you have an arguement of actual worth to say

Considering our traits, speficialy Protective Justice, leaving the village undefended doesn't sound like something the Ymaryn would do. Besides if we leave the village undefended and it does get raided we would have to pay more reparitions and negotiations would be harder.

Here is the thing, they don't have a reason to leave warriors there,
1. The villiage is one of the few right outside of our territory, therefore the chance it will be raided is rather low as it is to far away from the TH to take advantage of the situation
2. Leaving warriors there might be interpreted as taking over the village & could cause the very thing we IC try to avoid

From the travel times involved it would make more sense to send the diplomats with the warriors send to retrive the attacking warriors, so that can start initial negotiations as soon as possible.

Yeah, only problem, they need to find out what happened first, in order to figure out how to properly repay them, therefore they need to investigate first before they can send over their diplomats with the shinies,

Also considering that the whole thing works in Generations & the travel time ranges kinda between seasons & years I think it is rather save to say, that negotiations won't be hindered by stuff like that unless we fail the response roll the coming turn & don't get our dudes back before the HK arrives
 
If a system is not robust enough to stand up to people trying to maliciously exploit it it is fundamentally unworkable.

Well then obviously no law works and society just a pipe dream :V:V:V:V

Sorry, but getting fucking real

Nearly every law or reform in the history has been gamed and reworked & gamed again & then reworked again,

Dealing with abuse is part of how lawmaking works,
It also why most modern laws, carry their own defintions of words, are most specific, allow only one interpretation and it also why they list the specific exceptions for certian groups or cases, in order to prevent abuses
Yet, surprise surprise, it still happens & can happen, which is why we have judges & lawyers, in order to deal with the cases where abuses aren't or can't be covered by the law
 
As I noted before, it worked for the problems it was meant to solve, so it has definitly benefits, and while I admit it has definitly caused trouble I also have to point out that the trouble comes from people actively messing with the rules, so my suggestion was to make laws & create balances to prevent such an abuse, which definitly causes less chaos & damage to our society then a roll back would cause

Also both the political corruption & the rise of crime gangs happened before the whole thing and both have different roots

The political corruption comes from our government system as people try out other was to gain political power as the legal way is blocked from them
The crime gangs come from the city + the military overflow

So could you please stop being so salty, or at least take a break and come back when you have an arguement of actual worth to say



Here is the thing, they don't have a reason to leave warriors there,
1. The villiage is one of the few right outside of our territory, therefore the chance it will be raided is rather low as it is to far away from the TH to take advantage of the situation
2. Leaving warriors there might be interpreted as taking over the village & could cause the very thing we IC try to avoid



Yeah, only problem, they need to find out what happened first, in order to figure out how to properly repay them, therefore they need to investigate first before they can send over their diplomats with the shinies,

Also considering that the whole thing works in Generations & the travel time ranges kinda between seasons & years I think it is rather save to say, that negotiations won't be hindered by stuff like that unless we fail the response roll the coming turn & don't get our dudes back before the HK arrives



The thing is though, we had an option for a tried and tested method used by the whole of human civilisation. A method that works such administrative wonders that using it for voting purposes came centuries after the fact. Districts.

Anyflaw it has humanity has managed to control or weed out. It's simply an unbelievablely effective and efficient tool. Why on God's green earth would we not grab it? For possible gerrymandering? Which is possible in most voting systems? For Clan based organisation? ie the notables of the clans /the richest /smoothest talkers, Get to run the admin Scot free.

Hell what we're getting here is quite similar to the roman late Republic tribes votes. And that system was corruption personified.
 
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Here is the thing, they don't have a reason to leave warriors there,
1. The villiage is one of the few right outside of our territory, therefore the chance it will be raided is rather low as it is to far away from the TH to take advantage of the situation
2. Leaving warriors there might be interpreted as taking over the village & could cause the very thing we IC try to avoid

Yeah, only problem, they need to find out what happened first, in order to figure out how to properly repay them, therefore they need to investigate first before they can send over their diplomats with the shinies,

Also considering that the whole thing works in Generations & the travel time ranges kinda between seasons & years I think it is rather save to say, that negotiations won't be hindered by stuff like that unless we fail the response roll the coming turn & don't get our dudes back before the HK arrives
The TH threat is exactly the reason some of our warriors are staying there though, so it might be an actual threat. Hence my question to AN.

We need to not be at war with them to do all that, so diplomats need to be with our troops to try and get the Highlanders to agree to a diplomatic solution. The negotiations will take a long time to conclude, but first there must be negotiations. I'm not saying we send a huge salt caravan with them, but some diplomats and maybe some valuables as a sign of good faith.
 
The TH threat is exactly the reason some of our warriors are staying there though, so it might be an actual threat. Hence my question to AN.

We need to not be at war with them to do all that, so diplomats need to be with our troops to try and get the Highlanders to agree to a diplomatic solution. The negotiations will take a long time to conclude, but first there must be negotiations. I'm not saying we send a huge salt caravan with them, but some diplomats and maybe some valuables as a sign of good faith.
Kinda of a "Wait! Hold up." kinda deal with the traders/diplomats? Sounds workable.
 
Yeah, that's the first step on the diplomatic aspect. Stopping things from escalating with the Highlanders.
Weeeehaa! I'm buckling in for this.

My Dwarf Fortress music is loaded up and ready to soothe the pain.

I hope to Crow and AN and Arengee that this works out.
 
Doesn't China work like this starting from some point in it's history, up to the present?

That whole heavenly bureaucracy thing?

Sorry for double post.
China went through something you'd find quite familiar:
1) Set up an effective bureaucracy to administrate a large country.
2) Discovered a lack of sufficiently skilled bureaucrats to administer things.
3) Established complex tests to filter for competency.
4) Tests turned out to be so difficult that most of the people who qualified for a significant post were born to high ranking bureaucrats.
5) To increase the chance of their children inheriting, the tests were modified, changing from a general test of someone's intelligence and educational background to increasingly esoteric tests which strongly favored the children of bureaucrats, who were the only ones who had the time to learn enough poetry and obscure literature to pass.
6) Go to 4, repeat until you have bureaucrats specialized in the memorization of obscure poetry and novels..

I.e. exactly what happened here.
Yeah, and iirc we had an option to take that on a while back, but we had other things going on
Naw, wouldn't have worked.
We lacked the social technology to do it. Still do even now. AN confirmed it some time afterwards, we couldn't possibly have educated enough people to make it feasible.
If a system is not robust enough to stand up to people trying to maliciously exploit it it is fundamentally unworkable.
Actually, exploits would have happened down every route and would have needed patches. Districts could have done the same exploit by moving people around during elections for instance, so one person could be moved around the districts as they voted.

As the update itself noted, the problems revealed were swiftly outlawed and countermeasures put in. We won't be seeing the pump and dump happen anymore, just as we would have seen a brief period of people changing jobs or moving multiple times in rapid succession and then limits put in under the job or regional split. As it is, we bit a relatively minor 1 Stability hit, taking us to a relatively easily fixed Stability -1.
A 'robust' system as you put it does not exist, people don't devise laws against vote tampering until people tampered with votes.
I mean, otherwise the very software itself we're using to post this is fundamentally unworkable.

That said, it could have been worse if we went for a full reform of the clan laws. That, I think most people could predict the outcome of.
 
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How do you play df, I couldn't figure out how to do anything in that game.

You read the manual and stare at the screen for a while as you memorize the keys.

Also, war with the Highlanders might be how we accidentally an empire.

1. We crush the highlander military.
2. We then take over the defenses and crush the Thunder Horse, because it's the right thing to do, yo.
3. The provinces and vassals were all like "thanks" and wanted to join us.
4. The highlanders end up as our vassal.
5. We then diplo-annex them.
 
How do you play df, I couldn't figure out how to do anything in that game.
When I play it I use the LazyNewbPack of quality of life and sanity enhancers which includes the absolutely necessary dwarf therapist, which is the best way to tell your insane underlings what to do.

For more detailed advice watch youtube videos of someone doing df. I recommend Aavak's Cattenvîr playlist. If I remember correctly this is a mostly tutorial series that advances quite far and gets into the grittier and more fun stuff.

Aside from that, pray. Pray lots that you figure out what things you need (booze) before something eats your face.


As an aside I swear to Armok's Bloody Beard that this thread looks like my dwarf fortress games sometimes. :o



You read the manual and stare at the screen for a while as you memorize the keys.

Also, war with the Highlanders might be how we accidentally an empire.

1. We crush the highlander military.
2. We then take over the defenses and crush the Thunder Horse, because it's the right thing to do, yo.
3. The provinces and vassals were all like "thanks" and wanted to join us.
4. The highlanders end up as our vassal.
5. We then diplo-annex them.
*sigh* :facepalm:

It's so like us too. We would literally be defending ourselves, but we do it so well we accidentally their whole military sent to fight us, so Protective Justice and Cosmopolitan Acceptance and Symphony all trigger since well... we now have an obligation to these people and so we put our damnedest into protecting them and feeding them and so on and so forth.

FML. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

I can't tell whether this is hilarious or horrifying. We're like some kind of mutant Nega-Borg!
 
Right but I distinctly remember someone, I think AN, saying a possible evolution of our spirituality was deciding that the spirits had their own bureaucracy too
Oh that part was a "not yet" thing. He said it'd crystalize aroun the time we put up the Temple, so consider that the overall situation when the temple finishes would be defining regarding the spiritual beliefs.

I get the feeling the Great Spirits being well meaning but being unable to see the real picture when they trample upon those below them, while the Lesser Spirits are more precise but also more selfish and shortsighted, is going to be a thing :p
 
Oh that part was a "not yet" thing. He said it'd crystalize aroun the time we put up the Temple, so consider that the overall situation when the temple finishes would be defining regarding the spiritual beliefs.
Well what he said specifically was that we have proto-theology happening in the background and that it will crystallize around the time of the Temple completing into something. As to how it will crystallize I am unsure. It'd be cool to crystallize into spiritual bueracracy. Grain of salt though I may be missing some surrounding context that confirms it is going this way.


I get the feeling the Great Spirits being well meaning but being unable to see the real picture when they trample upon those below them, while the Lesser Spirits are more precise but also more selfish and shortsighted, is going to be a thing :p
Who's the Great Spirits in this case? Crow is obviously AN.

The dynamic you paint so true though.
 
Well then obviously no law works and society just a pipe dream :V:V:V:V

Sorry, but getting fucking real

Nearly every law or reform in the history has been gamed and reworked & gamed again & then reworked again,

Dealing with abuse is part of how lawmaking works,
It also why most modern laws, carry their own defintions of words, are most specific, allow only one interpretation and it also why they list the specific exceptions for certian groups or cases, in order to prevent abuses
Yet, surprise surprise, it still happens & can happen, which is why we have judges & lawyers, in order to deal with the cases where abuses aren't or can't be covered by the law

This is not a law, it's an attempt at iron age social engineering (Crow help us). The problem is not corruption, it's that corruption can crash the system.
 
This is not a law, it's an attempt at iron age social engineering (Crow help us). The problem is not corruption, it's that corruption can crash the system.
Ahh no you missed here. This is very much a law, by changing a already extant clan law system.

Either way though please you and @sidestory. Take this argument somewhere else please. It's getting annoying.
 
Who's the Great Spirits in this case? Crow is obviously AN.
Sun, moon and stars. I think Crow is less a Great Spirit and more of one of the intermediaries who takes the role of a Shaman, to educate and to guide, but not the ultimate authority.
Ahh no you missed here. This is very much a law, by changing a already extant clan law system.
Little bit of both. It's a small change to laws which as discovered, the high innovation density of a city also means people learn how to cooperate to cheat things in new ways really really fast.
 
Sun, moon and stars. I think Crow is less a Great Spirit and more of one of the intermediaries who takes the role of a Shaman, to educate and to guide, but not the ultimate authority.
Oh that's what you meant. So the Players are the Lesser Spirits? :V

Where do you get the idea that we consider the Sun, moon, and Stars to be our Great Spirits? I saw no real indication of that in our religion. If you remember Cosmogeny, Crow created the World, which if you look at it the right way could be interpreted as creating these things.
 
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Oh that's what you meant. So the Players are the Lesser Spirits? :V

Where do you get the idea that we consider the Sun, moon, and Stars to be our Great Spirits? I saw no real indication of that in our religion. If you remember Cosmogeny, Crow created the World, which if you look at it the right way could be interpreted as creating these things.
We consider the Great Spirits to be Celestial, too far above to influence but who might squish us as collateral damage, while we consider the spirits of immediate tangible things to be the Terrestrial spirits who can be persuaded to help you. But there's all kinds of gradations, like the spirits of the storm who like to smite the proud.
 
I can see the heavenly spirits being interpreted as powerful, well intentioned idiots, but a big part of our religion is likely to be shaped by how this event pans out, as its effects and its lessons will be remembered by our people.
 
[X] Attempt to capture the errant warriors and then make amends with the Highlanders (-5 Diplomacy, probable war with Highlanders)
 
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