If people want permanently fix our mysticism issue why aren't they voting for aren't you voting for this

Since it seems like it will make study the stars a constant action which means we will gain a mysticism a turn to counteract our new belief's downside.
a) some mysticism commitment
b) feel that temple is more likely to provide it.
i) Expand Holy Sites gives mysticism already, so it's not illogical.
ii)PttS might just make it more effective or provide alternate benefits to the action or something.
 
The temple and trails both cost economy, which will then trigger our true city and generate more econ slots, bringing us close to 10.

[X] [Main] Enforce Law
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forests
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forests x2

Edit: forgot to put in my updated vote. Totally forgot that spending econ gives us econ slots....:oops:
 
Cool.

Problems:
0 Stability
2 [-1/turn] mysticism
High Load on our forests (3/4 used for charcoal alone)
High Load on True City maintenance (6/10 towards breaking true city, warning: spending economy adds +1 to this value automatically)

Fixes:
Any stability generator (Festival main, any GS, enforce law)
Continuous study stars/possibly Place To the Stars (balanced policy will likely negate the loss per turn, but any future gain will likely have to be intentional)
More Forests
Many Expand Econ actions (converting policy to expansion can do this, but balanced is likely to burn at least 2 slots by doing an econ expansion per turn)

Whittles down to CRITICAL PROBLEMS:
0 Stability
2 [-1/turn] mysticism
High load on forests

So, very simply...
[X] [Main] Enforce Law
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forests
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forests x2
I'd much prefer to take advantage of the low Centralisation to use it on Expand Trails etc.; going up to 3-4 Centralisation should be fine, and we've had problems previously where we've wanted to take actions that increase Centralisation (i.e. trails) and couldn't.

[X] [Main] Expand Holy Sites
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] New Trails x2

I'd rather not take a chance on an unknown Megaproject. If anything, I'd expect the Library to give us passive Mysticism (or reduce Mysticism loss, which with this new drain amounts to the same thing.)
 
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The temple and trails both cost economy, which will then trigger our true city and generate more econ slots, bringing us close to 10.

[X] [Main] Enforce Law
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forests
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forests x2

Edit: forgot to put in my updated vote. Totally forgot that spending econ gives us econ slots....:oops:

While that's true, we can expect expanding forests to also give us econ slots, since it's essentially creating more countryside to live in, correct? The combination from trails, holy sites, and automatic city refund will shoot us up by 3, putting us at 9, we can expect the provinces to take at least one expand econ which will be boosted by The Law into a Main, putting us at 5. From there it's just a matter of hoping that the provinces don't take any more actions which spend econ.
 
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I'd much prefer to take advantage of the low Centralisation to use it on Expand Trails etc.; going up to 3-4 Centralisation should be fine, and we've had problems previously where we've wanted to take actions that increase Centralisation (i.e. trails) and couldn't.

[X] [Main] Expand Holy Sites
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] New Trails x2
Well, not really. We encountered problems where we wanted to do it but New Trails' issue was that we wanted to do it twice, not once. Also, rn, Enforce Law fixes the problem that AN actually pointed toward.
 
So we're heading towards civilization collapses through loss of Mysticism and Exon spiralling into loss of Stability (and probably of our other stats too) as we desperately try to maintain appropriate levels in our essential stats but fail because of action economy. ...Nice.

Did the Spirit Talkers experience something similar, where they were forced to dedicate an action to counteract some cost of their version of the high Observance trait?

Thunder Horse and they seemed circumspect about letting some of their elites actually be seen by traders, suggesting that maybe they had worked out a way for copper to actually be useful in combat, even more than their somewhat harder but mostly ceremonial version of the metal

Ah? Is that bronze I see? Their metal weapon making isn't enough to equip all their warriors, only their elites... Is it bad of me if I want the Highlanders to lose horribly in the battlefield and collapse into chaos so the Ymaryn can annex the provinces on the southern border?

This was going to make teaching the next generation of shamans a major pain though...

I think this is part of the Mysticism drain -- some knowledge is simply being lost every generation because we just can't teach new shamans fast enough before the teachers die off without having taught all they knew. Solving this -- a solution is the Library Megaproject, as the shamans record their researches in a centralized location where students can learn at their leisure. Though I also expect removing that con would require expansion of holy sites to provide the free manpower to invent a formal system of mass and efficient education.

A Place to the Stars won't fix the problem -- the loss is rooted in losing knowledge; that project would only moderately reduce the memorization load of our Astrologers, but not our other specialists.

Grand Temple might replace multiple holy site expansions by building one nationwide central proto-university. Still, I worry it won't address the memorization load, for all I expect it to add some progress on fixing the teaching problem.
 
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They are under the assumption that it will be like the saltern but with mysticism.
Actually, personally i think it more likely to give us some major development in our shaman tradition and/or let us turn our new value from "red text development maxed, mysticism drain to maintain" to "still the most we can do right now, but no mysticism drain"

(That said, i'll likely switch my vote later.)
 
So we're heading towards civilization collapses through loss of Mysticism and Exon spiralling into loss of Stability (and probably of our other stats too) as we desperately try to maintain appropriate levels in our essential stats but fail because of action economy. ...Nice.

Negative Mysticism won't kill you, and the Econ drain shuts off automatically before it threatens you, although you do now have a higher floor to keep in mind.
 
In early enough to do the prevote analysis properly today:


Diplomacy 14 (max, overflowing) [+1]->12 (+2) [+1]

Spent 2 on the Trade Missions, getting 2 back.

Economy 10->12 [-1]
-Refugees +2

True City begins to tax it, our minimum Econ is now 1 not 0 before we eat Stability hits.
We'd be best off staying in Balanced until we work out some logistical issues, as it won't crash us.

Stability 2->0 (neutral)
-Refugees -1
-Experiments -1

Unfortunate roll, but it happens.

Mysticism 2->2 [-1]

Mysticism eats a drain now, but as long as we stay on Balanced and don't do something like a Mysticism megaproject, it'd be fine since they'd keep spamming Study Stars.

Prestige 9->13
-War Victory +2
-True City +2

That is a big jump, but we could lose 3 points in one turn given bad luck, so keep that in mind for founding new Marches.

Love of Wisdom (Maxed development)
The People have learned not just to be aware of the world around them and to follow the patterns they see, but to also carefully test the patterns to see if they are actual patterns or just coincidence.
Pros: Significantly improved use of study actions and innovation rolls
Cons: Can question social foundations, consumes 1 Mysticism a turn

And the very real costs of being ahead of your time is that you need to pay upkeep. Ow. But so incredibly sweet.

I believe the cost here is due to testing and retesting, and then maintaining that knowledge without proper written records.
Debilitating Belief
Weapons of the Gods
Metal and things that come from the heavens are cursed! While the People will use that which is already present or trade, metal mining and open study now costs Stability.
Uh...this is still here?
Food Production
Chinampas
Fishing
Horse Milling
Mollusc Cultivation
Orchards
Ox-pulled plough
Step Farming
Terra Preta
Chinampas patched in.
Science
Ancestral Heroes
Animism
Astrology
Tested Observation
Hail Science!
Transportation
Animal Husbandry
Groomed Trails
Plank Wheel Carts

Yet to update our regular carts to spoked. I suspect it'd happen next main turn(since that'd be 3 turns since we rolled out spoked chariots and the techniques would have spread to civilian use).

Very carefully considering the arguments presented before him and grappling with the ideas the shamans were arguing over, the king eventually came to the agreement that if one long held idea turned out to be fundamentally unsound then perhaps the examination of other ideas long held was also worth investigating. Consulting with the Spirit Chief, the king began to allocate resources to carefully and quietly do a test to see what would happen if some of the People were not given the Sacred Warding, to see if it actually worked the way the shamans said it did.

Fortunately, the new nomads being brought in did provide a population that had never been warded so they could see what happened if some were given the warding and some didn't - the ritual was odd enough to outsiders that without enforcement they could get a split simply by making it an option rather than mandatory-, and surely there could be some trader families who could use a hand, especially in traveling down into the lowlands to speak with the Highlanders and the Thunder Horse to see what was going to happen there.

This was a PRETTY cunning approach to getting volunteers.
Just make it elective and some people would prefer not to be poked with needles by people in freaky masks to be protected from demons, then of course, nomads are good travelers, so they can join the traders.

No guilt because well, they volunteered! :D
On the diplomatic front the results were mixed if telling, in that both the Highlanders and the Thunder Horse were definitely getting ready to go at it over the territory between the rivers and were thus somewhat distant and cold towards the traders of the People. The traders were also somewhat concerned in that copper art objects had basically disappeared from being a part of trade in the Thunder Horse and they seemed circumspect about letting some of their elites actually be seen by traders, suggesting that maybe they had worked out a way for copper to actually be useful in combat, even more than their somewhat harder but mostly ceremonial version of the metal. Still, while both sides were clearly tensing up to have a swing at each other, neither was actually committed to making the first move...
Yeah Thunder Horse is packing Bronze now if they are stockpiling copper.

Boy would they be surprised if they decide to have a go at us, but the HK are not going to have a pleasant time unless they get the same from the Hathatyn.
Of course, while the political scene was tense, the People did also politely remind both that they had territory in the north and they would appreciate it if their warriors avoided fighting there, with both kingdoms generally getting the message that the People wouldn't appreciate getting caught up in things. While the Highlanders had said a few words about closeness and family ties and the like, it was fairly obvious that their strategy didn't involve the support of the People. Meanwhile the Thunder Horse gave off the impression that the only reason they might have interest in attacking the People in the near future would be if it looked like the People might try to take advantage of the fighting to stab them in the back, which with the trade mission they felt somewhat more reassured on.
And we ensured they'd leave us out of the fighting for now.

And as for the testing of the efficacy of the Sacred Warding?

By all the Spirits never try this again! It worked, it definitely worked! The quiet testing actually caused a mild panic among People already having a few integration problems with the new immigrants, and those dropping dead caused fears that they had either brought a new strain of star pox with them or had somehow broken the magic. The king reassured the People that it was an issue of mistakes being made and that the Sacred Warding was still effective, they had just missed a few new immigrants who had been exposed to the disease in the lowland, a few of them bringing it back with them, but as could be seen those who had undergone the ritual and received reinforcements were fine. This wasn't nearly as reassuring as it could have been, but for the most part the People accepted that things would be fine in the long run.

That certainly punched the early vaxxers in the nuts! :D
They'll be back though.
However, among the shamans, it presented them with what they had been looking for. The Sacred Warding ritual worked and they had proven it - admittedly with a rather awful test - and they could now compare their proof to what they had for the idea of metal being cursed. Metal could certainly be poisonous, but the shamans were now confident that the opening of mines could not actually bring down disasters like disease, drought, or invasion.
Properly proven!
Hail Science.

*Sacrifices nomads on altar of science*
Oh wait, the nomads in the west had massed their forces and were attacking.
Oh no, those fuckers, Son of NomadSon is back for round two.

Oh wait, the nomads in the west were all dead.
... :V

In the time it had taken the messengers to reach the king to tell of the enemy massing on the steppes, the Stallion Tribes and the Western Wall had mobilized and torn the heart out of the enemy, sweeping aside dozens of warbands and smashing larger concentrations. With their new chariots the warriors of the People were now faster than the nomads, able to run them down and slay them iron tipped arrows and spears and overwhelming numbers. Warriors who had gathered expecting to harass and brutalize the People instead found themselves unable to run away fast enough.
Ahaha, yes, nothing to compare with spoked wheels, though they'd probably start trying to copy them. Expensively, but it could be done.
The mountains were the Metal Workers lived were perhaps too far and too rough to assault directly, but the chiefs of the Stallions and the Wall promised to keep pressure on the western tribes in the hopes of being able to at least open up trade with the mountain folk once more, if not drive out the nomads entirely.

The shamans now had it: metal was awesome!
One day. One day we'll eat those guys too.

Clearly the People had been wrong in the past to consider metal cursed as broadly as many had believed. It soon became consensus among the shamans that this had in fact been Crow playing a trick upon the People, a grand scheme to teach them a lesson about being careful to connect events together and to be careful with assumptions going unchallenged. This was going to make teaching the next generation of shamans a major pain though...
Trickster pantheon head best head.

Additionally, it was noted that Valleyhome was feeling a bit crowded. Looking over the tallies, it was noted that there were now perhaps over a hundred thousand people living in the settlement, a mind boggling number that was only rivaled in the known world by Xohyr. How exactly to manage this was... something that the king figured he and his successors would be grappling with for quite some time.

Valleyhome becomes a True City!
+2 Prestige for having the second True City

True Cities are engines of trade and productivity and centers of innovation and invention... they are also unruly things and serve as demographic sinks. Every turn a True City consumes 1 Econ just by existing, but also returns 1 Econ to the expansion pool. Additionally, when spending Econ a point will be refunded to the expansion pool for every True City a civilization controls. True Cities also generate their own stresses, make a civilization more sensitive to environmental factors such as weather and disease, and if Econ grows too low or the expansion pool too large then a settlement can lose its True City status as people leave for the countryside or die out and are not replaced.

Okay, so:
-Each turn, we lose one Econ.
-Each turn we gain one Econ slot
-Each time we spend Econ, we get one Econ slot back(meaning we don't need to keep grabbing new settlements) per true city. This is the ultimate in Build Tall.
--This makes Expand Forest, Black Soil and More Boats extremely powerful actions.
--This makes Military and Religious expansion much more sustainable, as anything that costs 1 Econ can be taken repeatedly without burning slots.

Also the Bolded says "Get that Centralization in" We need Centralization to counter environmental harm and cities are vulnerable to it.

Action changes:
Black Soil, Expand Forest, Main More Boats becomes Econ slot generators, as they refund their own Econ costs.

Build Quarry/Silver Mine - There is a location where alabaster and lead and silver can be found in Northshore, building there would surely be of benefit to the People's art
*S: [] Silver Mine, -2 Econ, +2 Diplo, +1 Art
*S: [] Alabaster Quarry, -2 Econ, +2 Art, +1 Diplo
*M: -3 Econ, +3 Art, +3 Diplo, both materials
Ah yep, limestone, in the Alabaster variant. Very nice construction material for religious and cultural structures. Also very nice for making lime, but there's less valuable forms.
Also the Main is kickass. Once we get around to it.

Build Vineyard - There is a location in Blackriver that is judged an ideal place to grow the small fruits that are favoured for making a particularly potent drink
*S: -1 Econ, +2 Diplo next turn
*M: -1 Econ, +2 Diplo
A secondary should be all we need here.

Expand Economy - Encourage the growth of food producing activities such as farming, pastures, or fishing, depending on where focus is placed
*S: +2 Econ, potential additional effects
* 6 Econ remain before requiring new territory (max 10 to keep Valleyhome True City status)
As long as we have a True City we're unlikely to run out of slots if we take -1 Econ actions. Presumably unlocking more True Cities via Aqueducts will increase the margin.

Found March - Sometimes you need an extra buffer between you and hostile powers, or a place to stash excess warriors. Current Target: North-East
*M: -5 Martial, -2 Econ, founds march to take independent martial actions
This is back, but somewhat premature. We want 3 more Prestige first as a buffer.
Integrate March - Better communications and administration means that the Stallion Tribes or Western Wall can be integrated into the People more fully, transitioning from a March to a province
*M: -6 Diplomacy, gain Econ and Martial from integrating March
We could do this, but then they couldn't wreck Nomad ass on their own anymore.

More Boats - The things are expensive but oh so useful, so having more of them will increase your capacity for trade, travel, and fishing
* S: -2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects
* M: -2 Econ, +1 Econ end of turn, +1 Econ and Diplo next turn, additional effects, verge of innovation
* used 5 times
Almost at a shipping breakthrough.

New Trails - There are many settlements with only marginal trails, so more could be useful
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, other effects
* M: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, +1 Diplo, other effects
Long past time to get this really.
Note that Double Main New Trails will push Art to it's cap via overflow, so we'd start overflowing into Mysticism soon.
Study Metal - Iron and copper, gold and silver, what other secrets are hidden in metal and stone?
* S: -1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights
* M: -1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, improved chance of new insights

Study Tailings - Tailings pits are toxic, but there are some fascinating items within
*S: -1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights
* M: -1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, improved chance of new insights
Finally, that freaking Stability cost is gone.

Still expensive as hell though, but the big new insights are handy for finding uses for sulfuric acid.
Somewhat amused by how our new trait has changed some of the Study/Survey options to be "ooo shiny"
Study Stars - What secrets do the heavens hold when you study the stars and their motions carefully? 7 Uses, 0/4 Uses in a Row
*S: +1 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights
Cannot be used as a Main action
@Academia Nut

Didn't the provinces Study Stars last turn?
Aqueduct - Redshore (0/8), Lower Valleyhome (0/4), Stonepen (0/6), Blackmouth (0/8), Sacred Forest (0/4), Redhills (0/6). Each {S} committed consumes 2 Econ for 2 Progress. Completion adds +4 Econ Expansion and can allow for the formation of another True City
Noting that this will now generate a lot of Econ Expansion slots if we have a second True City. Might want to move it up the schedule.
The Games - Physical competition and prowess are becoming a popular pass time and way for warriors and militia to train. Could a special festival be founded to celebrate this? (4-6? action commitment, -1 Mysticism and Art per action, 2 Econ total commitment) [Elites]
This might help evolve Elites trait, though it might also generate Stability. It seems this was gated behind Improving enough Festivals.

A Megaproject Festival seems fun.

Great Temple - With the ability to cut larger and larger blocks of stone and still shape it precisely, fantastically larger complexes to the gods and spirits can be raised (5-7? action commitment, -1 Econ and Art per action)
This is likely how we can counteract the Mysticism cost, by vastly boosting Mysticism generation with this.

The Library - The People need to store ideas, not records [Observance] [King] (4-6? Action commitment, -1 Mysticism and -1 Art per action, 2 Econ total commitment)
This might cut the Mysticism cost. Hard to build it while bleeding Mysticism though. We need 7 Mysticism if we do it in one turn. +1 per turn spent. Do not start yet, and if we do start it, we want to fully rush/kick it.

Place to the Stars - The shamans have noticed deeper patterns among the stars than they ever imagined, and setting up long term memories of where things should be could be intensely useful, if also labour intensive to get sufficiently durable markers in place (7-10? action commitment, -1 Econ per action, some Mysticism commitment)
Might be extra powerful now.

One [Main] action and two [Seconday] actions available. The Marches are launching War Missions against Western Nomads this turn. Support is not needed but is appreciated
Oh they're still there. Not needing our help though.

And now my vote:
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] New Trails
[X][Secondary] New Trails x2

Reasoning:
-Holy Site Expansion is nice, but not critical, while we stay on Balanced the provinces will supply Study Stars.
--Great Temple is the most likely long term solution to the Mysticism drain, because we cannot afford the Library without running out of Mysticism(and that'd be VERY bad now)
--True City will refund the Economy slots used by the construction, as long as we stay on Balanced.
-New Trails are needed to connect our settlements. The action says many settlements only have basically dirt tracks to them. Need improvement.
--We also want more Centralization. It's not super urgent, but we need to work it up.
-Stability is desirable, though not urgent.
-Silver mine is NOT currently desirable, due to the Forest usage.
-Thank Crow for Balanced policy.
 
Diplomacy 12 (+2) [+1]

OK. So we're only getting a refund from our secondary trade mission. That mean we only get an overflow of 1 to Art.

Art is currently at 11 and will become 12 next turn. Therefore, if we want to overflow art to mysticism, we need 3 additional diplomacy.

This below, does give us an option on maxing out art. Both secondary option will let us start overflowing art. A main action is even better.

*S: [] Silver Mine, -2 Econ, +2 Diplo, +1 Art
*S: [] Alabaster Quarry, -2 Econ, +2 Art, +1 Diplo
*M: -3 Econ, +3 Art, +3 Diplo, both materials
 
Cool.

Problems:
0 Stability
2 [-1/turn] mysticism
High Load on our forests (3/4 used for charcoal alone)
High Load on True City maintenance (6/10 towards breaking true city, warning: spending economy adds +1 to this value automatically)

Fixes:
Any stability generator (Festival main, any GS, enforce law)
Continuous study stars/possibly Place To the Stars (balanced policy will likely negate the loss per turn, but any future gain will likely have to be intentional)
More Forests
Many Expand Econ actions (converting policy to expansion can do this, but balanced is likely to burn at least 2 slots by doing an econ expansion per turn)

Whittles down to CRITICAL PROBLEMS:
0 Stability
2 [-1/turn] mysticism
High load on forests

So, very simply...
[X] [Main] Enforce Law
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forests
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forests x2


Excellent points.
[X] [Main] Enforce Law
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forests
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forests x2
 
Another thing to consider though: We might actually end up committing the next few turns to building the Great Temple.

I know, gee whiz, what a surprise.

But ever since we got the Law we've been one-turning megaprojects and I worry that people have forgotten how much of an action tax they are. Right now we have ... oh... 6 or 7 minor brushfires that we need to put out as a civilization, and if literally anything else comes in the middle bad times are going to be had.
 
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