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Paths of Civilization

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Umi-san said:
I just re-read the passage. Where does it say that?? Please find a passage where it is explicitly stating that people are unhappy because of the black soil, and not because of a) people dying due to fishing in deep water with bad boats b) people being irritated because their works is getting undone and they need to cut steps to fix the slopes/provide enough of a place for the trail to go/whatever, or c) not having enough hated people to do some of the tasks, one of which has already become easier, resulting in a more efficient process requiring less people. Note that no dissatisfaction was expressed in the paragraph addressing the need for non-exiles to do the job. It was just required. Seriously, find a quote with explicit dissatisfaction with the black soil being produced.
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The job of working the soil pits is relegated to prison duty. You can argue a thousand long-term consequences of actions with me, but you can't argue that prison work is popular.
 
Powerofmind said:
The job of working the soil pits is relegated to prison duty. You can argue a thousand long-term consequences of actions with me, but you can't argue that prison work is popular.
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Find a source expressing dissatisfaction with doing a necessary and therefore valued activity that is saving the life of the forests we prize so much. Thx.
 
Umi-san said:
Find a source expressing dissatisfaction with doing a necessary and therefore valued activity that is saving the life of the forests we prize so much. Thx.
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You'll ignore it because you're obviously off your rocker, but here it is.
Academia Nut said:
One of the big changes was that as the black soil production was expanded, there weren't enough half-exiles to do some of the tasks and thus people who weren't particularly in trouble had to rotate turns tending to certain pit tasks.
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THIS IS PRISON WORK. BECAUSE THERE WERE NOT ENOUGH PRISONERS, NORMAL PEOPLE WERE FORCED TO DO IT.
 
Umi-san said:
Find a source expressing dissatisfaction with doing a necessary and therefore valued activity that is saving the life of the forests we prize so much. Thx.
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How often do you thank the guy driving the garbage truck?
The sewage plant worker?
The thousands of farmers who pick the more delicate fruits and berries machines aren't refined enough to handle?

Valuable to society very much isn't the same as valued by society. And even if it is, that doesn't mean you want to do it!

2576
 
Academia Nut said:
but during the black soil agitation and grinding process the mason got sick of the mass processing and decided to spend a season working out a better way of doing things. It took several more years before the other masons had figured out how to make the pairs of carved stones the original man had devised into an actually useful device, but once someone realized an ox or horse could push the damn things in a circle with minimal supervision they started to get bigger and more and more things could be ground at once in a central location.
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On one hand people didn't like it doing it, on the other they found a way to do it better so that they wouldn't have to.
 
[X] [Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement
 
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If we don't do it ourselves, we might end up creating an underclass of people where all the dirty and unpleasant jobs get relegated to, like the "untouchable".
 
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement
[X] [Secondary] Black Soil

Given the sheer cost of getting dudes out there to do the Blight work, we need to cut the COST of the process, not just pour even more resources into a bottomless pit.

Seriously.

Academia Nut said:
New trails are cut and expanded as the People move further and further into the wilds, and while they don't exactly want to trample over all the work they just did, it soon becomes obvious in several places that they need to cut terraces into the stone bones of several hills so that black soil can be spread out and fresh plantings put in place, which requires the trails to be large enough to accommodate the animals and wagons that could haul the material.
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We're running into problems getting our shit and workers out there. We need a local base.
 
Powerofmind said:
You'll ignore it because you're obviously off your rocker, but here it is.

THIS IS PRISON WORK. BECAUSE THERE WERE NOT ENOUGH PRISONERS, NORMAL PEOPLE WERE FORCED TO DO IT.
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Please find a source that isn't restating what you already said..? You said "prison work" before. Did I deny it? No.

What I will argue, though, is that if it becomes normalized for people who are NOT half-exiles to do the task, it will thus cease to be "prison work." Can you disagree? Furthermore, can you find a quote where people express their dissatisfaction with doing the task they're needed for? It's not like they're explicitly being made to stir the shit, they're only assigned to "certain tasks." The mason that was described, for example, was just powdering the charcoal.

Sightsear said:
How often do you thank the guy driving the garbage truck?
The sewage plant worker?
The thousands of farmers who pick the more delicate fruits and berries machines aren't refined enough to handle?

Valuable to society very much isn't the same as valued by society. And even if it is, that doesn't mean you want to do it!

2576
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When at home, I thank the garbage truck guy literally every week, and the mail man every day. I'd also argue that our society, which regularly farms and etc. every day, has a different opinion of what bad tasks are than us readers who reside in a largely industrialized world. See above, anyways.

Kiba said:
If we don't do it ourselves, we might end up creating an underclass of people where all the dirty and unpleasant jobs get relegated to, like the "untouchable".
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We appear to already have that in the form of the "half-exiles," so this is possibly undoing just that, in part.
 
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veekie said:
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement
[X] [Secondary] Black Soil

Given the sheer cost of getting dudes out there to do the Blight work, we need to cut the COST of the process, not just pour even more resources into a bottomless pit.

Seriously.


We're running into problems getting our shit and workers out there. We need a local base.
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Is that something we can really do with Econ 2 though?

And it's hardly a bottomless pit, AN already stated that we only need 1~2 turns of this.
 
veekie said:
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement
[X] [Secondary] Black Soil

Given the sheer cost of getting dudes out there to do the Blight work, we need to cut the COST of the process, not just pour even more resources into a bottomless pit.

Seriously.


We're running into problems getting our shit and workers out there. We need a local base.
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We did double economy actions last turn and lost a point. Do you really want to push an expensive as hell act like a New settlement onto that?
 
SpeckofStardust said:
On one hand people didn't like it doing it, on the other they found a way to do it better so that they wouldn't have to.
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They improved a step in the process, namely grinding up the 'char' (whatever step that is, I'm not paying attention). That helps part of the workload, but their is still a (some of it literal) shit-ton of other unpleasantness to do. They tolerate it because it's important, but it's still just that: tolerating an unpleasant truth.

Also, screw it, I'll go with a new logistical hub in the area (still getting snails to try and keep up with trade):

[X] [Secondary] New Settlement
[X] Expand Snail Cultivation
 
notgreat said:
1) Trade Mission- Spirit Talkers: They are very useful against the Dead Priests and have a bunch of things we don't have (goods and technologies/cultural things)
2) Expand Managed Forests: This should directly help with the megaproject.
3) Expand Pastures: We're now starting to use animals as a labor source. Expanding this should help that a lot.
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There is absolutely nothing that says people need more managed forests or animal labor. In fact, on expanding forests in particular, we are already working well beyond the influence zone of our settlements. They should be taken if you want resources from the forests for the megaproject, but the forests well beyond what we would expand for more resources have already been dealt with.

Umi-san said:
RE the trade mission: the ST have nothing that we want, as far as I know. They have religious expertise and psychoactive drugs, but otherwise? A trade mission a) to the nomads, b) to the confederation, or c) "Into the Wild" are the best choices for a trade mission. Doing Step Farms would probably be a better choice, especially since if there's "too much" of the miracle worker, Black Soil, we can just use it in them.
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They're explicitely surviving by being a trade center and gaining gifts alone. They'd be very profitable to trade with for our luxury goods and we'd get a much wider variety.
 
veekie said:
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement
[X] [Secondary] Black Soil

Given the sheer cost of getting dudes out there to do the Blight work, we need to cut the COST of the process, not just pour even more resources into a bottomless pit.

Seriously.


We're running into problems getting our shit and workers out there. We need a local base.
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you do know that all choices for a new settlement location is between our valley and fish villages right? and thus we wont be making it near were the blight is correct?
 
Umi-san said:
Please find a source that isn't restating what you already said..? You said "prison work" before. Did I deny it? No.

What I will argue, though, is that if it becomes normalized for people who are NOT half-exiles to do the task, it will thus cease to be "prison work." Can you disagree? Furthermore, can you find a quote where people express their dissatisfaction with doing the task they're needed for? It's not like they're explicitly being made to stir the shit, they're only assigned to "certain tasks." The mason that was described, for example, was just powdering the charcoal.
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Oh look, I say it and it comes out there. They're literally stirring shit. Nobody likes it. The people who do it are literally forced to do it. It is unpleasant work that nobody wants to do, seeing as there's no FUCKING VOLUNTEERS!
 
> Be me
> Just finished cleaning the house and cooking lunch
> "Well, time to get cracking on that analysis!"
> Just after I start writing, a message appears on screen
> The OP, Academia Nut, replied with 1.7k words to the thread
> Whole new update
> Still haven't done the last turn's analysis

:cry:

AN, plz
 
Sivantic said:
Is that something we can really do with Econ 2 though?

And it's hardly a bottomless pit, AN already stated that we only need 1~2 turns of this.
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Powerofmind said:
We did double economy actions last turn and lost a point. Do you really want to push an expensive as hell act like a New settlement onto that?
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Yes. Because if we don't do it the cost will only snowball as our logistics are stretched HARD to do the work.

Thats why we need to do it while we still can afford to.
A settlement boosts economic productivity and cuts costs in exchange for a startup cost.
 
Powerofmind said:
Oh look, I say it and it comes out there. They're literally stirring shit. Nobody likes it. The people who do it are literally forced to do it. It is unpleasant work that nobody wants to do, seeing as there's no FUCKING VOLUNTEERS!
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We should make it a structured part of our justice system. Break the law and you get to stir shit for a few months.
 
Powerofmind said:
I think if we pushed fishing a little harder, we might be able to jumpstart some better design practices for waterborne vessels.
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Better to give it a generation and see if they don't develop something with the pressures we've added to them last turn. Boat development can take a while and expanding fishing again too early might end up with nothing more than a bunch of dead people and the same advances we'd have gotten anyway.
 
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