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Paths of Civilization

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Umi-san said:
The dam will be blocking off the flow to lowlands, will it not? We should a) argue over where the dam will be placed and b) realize that none of the rivers we have access to are likely to negatively affect the wetlands at the end of them because i) a dam on the left river won't be far away from its end, so the evaporated water from the dam won't be much off of how much it receives anyways and ii) if we dam off the right river it's fucking over farming land that belongs to our enemies, which is already a disturbed ecosystem.


Also, most of the things you listed were less ecological damage and more just consequences. Like, the delta shrinking is bad but it's not like it completely died off, and in the other case the growth of the land was pretty much positive all around, as the whole benefit of silt is when plants can reach it.

agreed.

Even non-pit mining is still dangerous and somewhat toxic. It just depends on how the refuse is treated. Usually, modern mining companies just don't give a shit about it and toss it back into the pit when they're done, if not into a nearby hollow in the hillside.

What matters isn't if they are, but if you believe they are.
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Setting up the Dam will screw over the lowlands a lot, but they still have a second river system on the east...so it won't totally kill them (it'll most likely make the confederacy super pissed though). If anything it'll make the badlands much drier and more costly to travel through without fuck tons of water. If we're gonna settle down there eventually then screwing up the ecosystem more just seems like it'll cost us time putting it back to rights later.

I don't think AN has decided yet if magic/spirits are real yet, since we haven't focused on religion. It just remains a maybe/maybe not until he's forced to stop keeping things vague.

Either way it doesn't matter, because expanding our religion will lead to developing writing as well as more education, on top of making us much more resistant to the cultures of other civs (which we all agree is a good thing).
 
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Umi-san said:
Even non-pit mining is still dangerous and somewhat toxic. It just depends on how the refuse is treated. Usually, modern mining companies just don't give a shit about it and toss it back into the pit when they're done, if not into a nearby hollow in the hillside.
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But will there be something we can do about that in this point in time? Probably not...

Also, don't give me that claptrap about belief. It still matters if we have to deal with it or not. Magic could still be a universal as gravity in this verse
 
hylas240 said:
Setting up the Dam will screw over the lowlands a lot, but they still have a second river system on the east...it it won't totally kill them (it'll most likely make the confederacy super pissed though). If anything it'll make the badlands much drier and more costly to travel through without fuck tons of water. If we're gonna settle down there eventually then screwing up the ecosystem more just seems like it'll cost us time putting it back to rights later.

I don't think AN has decided yet if magic/spirits are real yet, since we haven't focused on religion. It just remains a maybe/maybe not until he's forced to stop keeping things vague.

Either way it doesn't matter, because expanding our religion will lead to developing writing as well as more education, on top of making us much more resistant to the cultures of other civs (which we all agree is a good thing).
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Tbh, when I picture dams I picture them as having a normal water flow - the water lost by evaporation.

Why was the colorado river different? Did it trap silt or just redirect all the water?

Sivantic said:
But will there be something we can do about that in this point in time? Probably not...

Also, don't give me that claptrap about belief. It still matters if we have to deal with it or not. Magic could still be a universal as gravity in this verse
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If we find plants that can stand the really toxic soil, probably, yeah. They would help keep the bad soil from eroding and poisoning other things, and plants like water lilies start trapping the heavy metals in their stems, so that when they die they sink to the bottom and sort of stay there, or get eaten by fish and etc. Aka we can't make the problem disappear, but we CAN dilute it into a bunch of organisms that we don't care about.

Magic could be as universal as gravity but if it is both universal and like gravity then our scientists will control it like they control the rivers. Spirits and gods, on the other hand, are BS-y parasites and will waste energy to propitiate and satisfy. Should we follow a different path, our profoundly atheistic approach would mean we waste energy only on getting more energy to waste on destroying them. #MaxGladstone

Things that cannot be controlled cannot be uncontrolled.


(Tbh, tho, I kind of want them to exist because I like imagining modern societies where gods are real. As opposed to societies that stay static because gods exist and everything becomes focused on powering them up rather than uplifting people's quality of life.)
 
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No! Please, we must stick to the plan! Resist the shineys, for they are numerous and fleeting! (Unless something really important pops up, in which case we should go for it)
 
Barring any natural disasters that pop up in the next turn or two, establishing a settlement while starting the Canal of Doom™ will be a good way to organize it as a way-point during construction. Not to mention increase the land we have to cultivate.
 
So our actual strategy is landgrab, we build infrastructure, build new settlement along the new infrastructure, them improve settlement, repeat?
 
Malevolo said:
So our actual strategy is landgrab, we build infrastructure, build new settlement along the new infrastructure, them improve settlement, repeat?
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SpeckofStardust said:
Yep, I mean sooner or later were going to run into someone who we cant do that to but until then.......
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At least right now it's just landgrabbing internally, which I prefer to call development. But improving the settlement (aka building a wall around the lower valley I hope) is going to wait until the turn after, most likely. We need a steady, continuous econ boost, and while the new settlement will provide for itself it won't provide anything but hands for the canal.

When we start landgrabbing externally is when it gets trickier, and we'll have to focus more on our military/diplo. But until our other enemies are as economically developed as us, it's more likely that - in the medium future, aka until we hit ST & DP - all the land we grab will be surrendered voluntarily.

Kiba said:
Is it me, or is our kingdom is actually very small?
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It's not just you. We are very small. All the countries before, like, Rome-ish times were quite small, ergo "city-states" as a concept. The land that we cover, even given buffer room, is about half the size of Kyoto, San Diego, or Bordeaux.

Edit: I'm honestly kind of glad that we went tall, because now we can go wide and then tall again. Like shrooms. Or trees.
 
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Kiba said:
Is it me, or is our kingdom is actually very small?
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Its still early bronze age, so the other civs aren't that big. We've focused on building tall instead of wide like the lowlanders so we'v developed much more. They might have a few more villages, but they're very small and they aren't good at collective action at all.
 
Kiba said:
Is it me, or is our kingdom is actually very small?
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More that we went for density over size. It was mentioned that people from other places were shocked to find 10,000 people living in our valley. While that might not seem like a lot by modern standards (10,000 is a small town in our time), by 6,000 BCE standards, we are a thriving civilization.
 
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Umi-san said:
At least right now it's just landgrabbing internally, which I prefer to call development. But improving the settlement (aka building a wall around the lower valley I hope) is going to wait until the turn after, most likely. We need a steady, continuous econ boost, and while the new settlement will provide for itself it won't provide anything but hands for the canal.

When we start landgrabbing externally is when it gets trickier, and we'll have to focus more on our military/diplo. But until our other enemies are as economically developed as us, it's more likely that - in the medium future, aka until we hit ST & DP - all the land we grab will be surrendered voluntarily.


It's not just you. We are very small. All the countries before, like, Rome-ish times were quite small, ergo "city-states" as a concept.
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Real Talk though...the war is gonna leave the Spirit Talkers, Dead Priests, and Confederacy super weak. It'll be cake to aggressively expand into their territory.
 
I wonder how hard it is to invade our people. Our warriors are well trained and equipped and then we include the fact that our entire population has some training in combat so as not to be useless in case of attack and then we have our Gardener Value which means that we get a nice boost when it comes to fighting in our own territory.
 
Mannan said:
I wonder how hard it is to invade our people. Our warriors are well trained and equipped and then we include the fact that our entire population has some training in combat so as not to be useless in case of attack and then we have our Gardener Value which means that we get a nice boost when it comes to fighting in our own territory.
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Our truly advantage is the hilly area, were we can trap them, them bombard them with missiles, because, arrows are nasty, but propelled spears make insane damage if given proper flight.
 
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hylas240 said:
Real Talk though...the war is gonna leave the Spirit Talkers, Dead Priests, and Confederacy super weak. It'll be cake to aggressively expand into their territory.
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Tbh, I think the ST will focus on the DP first, as they border each other more completely and the DP are more repugnant to the ST. It's only if the WC moves in on one of them that it will be exhausted, too. But our canal is poised to impact the WC regardless, so we can just threaten them into joining us if we have an excuse for doing so.

Mannan said:
I wonder how hard it is to invade our people. Our warriors are well trained and equipped and then we include the fact that our entire population has some training in combat so as not to be useless in case of attack and then we have our Gardener Value which means that we get a nice boost when it comes to fighting in our own territory.
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I'd say that we're quite difficult to invade. Not only are our people how you said, but they're also densely packed, which means that a raid-and-run type of strategy will be less effective. A larger issue than raiding would be if they poison or burn our fields while distracting us. We have the Fishers and a large supply, but if it will still be a pain. I don't think anyone will try to invade us because of that, and because getting through the badlands and then the hills around us is so irritating.
 
Umi-san said:
I'd say that we're quite difficult to invade. Not only are our people how you said, but they're also densely packed, which means that a raid-and-run type of strategy will be less effective. A larger issue than raiding would be if they poison or burn our fields while distracting us. We have the Fishers and a large supply, but if it will still be a pain. I don't think anyone will try to invade us because of that, and because getting through the badlands and then the hills around us is so irritating.
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people who aim to poison our lands will likely be genocided considering our traits..... I mean Eye for an Eye and Gardeners of the Land.....
 
Umi-san said:
Tbh, I think the ST will focus on the DP first, as they border each other more completely and the DP are more repugnant to the ST. It's only if the WC moves in on one of them that it will be exhausted, too. But our canal is poised to impact the WC regardless, so we can just threaten them into joining us if we have an excuse for doing so.


I'd say that we're quite difficult to invade. Not only are our people how you said, but they're also densely packed, which means that a raid-and-run type of strategy will be less effective. A larger issue than raiding would be if they poison or burn our fields while distracting us. We have the Fishers and a large supply, but if it will still be a pain. I don't think anyone will try to invade us because of that, and because getting through the badlands and then the hills around us is so irritating.
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Its even worse for them. We have war wagons and internal roads which make transporting our cavalry super easy...not so much for anyone coming from the outside. This isn't even factoring in our home territory defensive bonus.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
people who aim to poison our lands will likely be genocided considering our traits..... I mean Eye for an Eye and Gardeners of the Land.....
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Yeah but it's still a solid war/raiding tactic, and they're probably prepared for retribution.

hylas240 said:
Its even worse for them. We have war wagons and internal roads which make transporting our cavalry super easy...not so much for anyone coming from the outside. This isn't even factoring in our home territory defensive bonus.
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It helps with us moving about in our territory, but if they have enough people, the roads help them not us. They can always try to guerilla in the hills, if there are less of them. They'd be at a disadvantage due to coming from different terrain, but it's good against a more centralized people like ours.
 
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