Paths of Civilization

Ghostdevil · May 13, 2017

Umi-san said:
*sighs*

I mean... it literally says it in the quote, which is why I pointed it out.

But I am inclined to say that there is a chance that they will take his mother's lack of support on faith as an indication of a deep-rooted internal flaw rather than her attempting to maintain neutrality. This is all dependent on a die-roll, after all.

This is why people are calling you disingenuous
Because AN EXPLICITLY states that being silent DISCREDITS HIM, the fact you won't acknowledge that is what is pissing so many off

Sivantic · May 13, 2017

Ghostdevil said:
If snubbing him wins, I hope that he gets pissed off, it'd be hilariously ironic if he causes a civil war then instill heredity anyways because he doesn't want his children getting fucked for no reason

She can't because it doesn't exist as a fucking concept yet.

Lol, now you are embarking on fearmongering yourself. We don't vote to keep things neutral, andhe throws a tantrum? And you would vote him in?

:lol

hylas240 said:
Except not supporting him is not just removing a bonus, but applying a malus to his chances.

It's like shooting Usain Bolt in the foot and saying "if you were good enough, then you'll overcome these odds". It doesn't make much sense.

Also, his odds for being in the running are based off of a dice roll, which is random.

No it isn't. It is applying scrutiny instead of just nodding your head to the King putting her son as heir.

Ghostdevil · May 13, 2017

Sivantic said:
Lol, now you are embarking on fearmongering yourself. We don't vote to keep things neutral, andhe throws a tantrum? And you would vote him in?

No I aint fear mongering, I literally said I hoped that'd happen, because he got politically smeared and fucked over, which is a bad thing because we discriminate against him based PURELY ON HERITAGE, 100%.
Edit: Also NO it fucking isn't, I know your blind but seriously AN EXPLICITLY STATES that it discredits him

Duesal · May 13, 2017

Umi-san said:
k*

I mean... it literally says it in your* quote, which is why I pointed it out.

But I am inclined to say that there is a chance that they will take his mother's lack of support on faith as an indication of a deep-rooted internal flaw rather than her attempting to maintain neutrality. This is all dependent on a die-roll, after all.

Academia Nut said:
hylas240 said:

@Academia Nut If we remain quiet, do we have the option of choosing him as king later?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Possibly, but not probably.

Much, much lower chances of him being able to pull through with his own merits if we discredit him by staying silent and not giving him the endorsement he's earned.

McLuvin · May 14, 2017

Sivantic said:
Lol, now you are embarking on fearmongering yourself. We don't vote to keep things neutral, andhe throws a tantrum? And you would vote him in

I think it's more a personal hope than an argument. Like an 'I wish it would happen' kind of thing.

TotallyNotEvil · May 14, 2017

You guys realize that, the sane, expected thing to do would be supporting your own kids, right?

That's the negative attention from staying silent is garnered because he not only is the best candidate, but also the King's son? And the King herself isn't supporting him, which means there has to be some serious problem with the canditate only someone as close as a mother would know about?

Which means, the "nepotism" thing is entirely from our modern, biased perspective? That, from that social fallout, we can conclude that people would go "it's only natural" if she chose him?

You don't set standards and then disqualify people on a whim. That's no different to the dreaded dynastic monarchy,

Academia Nut · May 14, 2017

Abby Normal said:
Wait...so is part of the perception of nepotism that since Clerk Chief as a position only exists because Magwyna split the admin chief position up that way, it kinda looks like she messed with the council to let him shine? Or at least, those opposed would argue it that way, that he wasn't actually the clear best choice, she just made room on the council for his area of expertise?

It's basically that the majority of the people who would actually be voting for him, the high level chiefs and shamans, would see that he really is the best candidate, but away from the halls of power you would get a lot of people going "Huh, king's son got in, wonder how that worked out..." and since the system doesn't typically have the leaders go from parent to child, it would get people suspicious that things are being gamed.

And yes, the idea of someone recusing themselves for conflict of interest isn't really a formal thing, and part of the selection process is having the social networks established among the rest of the rulers to get them to vote for you, so the idea of 'avoiding conflicts of interest' isn't even a thing and sounds completely ass backwards. If you aren't entangled with entrenched interests, why are you even running for king?

pblur · May 14, 2017

On a complete tangent, how do you tag someone on this forum? (@Umi-san for instance.) To date, I've been quoting other people tagging the person and using those BBcodes...

Edit: ... Apparently @foo just works.

Entropy Engineer · May 14, 2017

Ghostdevil said:
No I aint fear mongering, I literally said I hoped that'd happen, because he got politically smeared and fucked over, which is a bad thing because we discriminate against him based PURELY ON HERITAGE, 100%.
Edit: Also NO it fucking isn't, I know your blind but seriously AN EXPLICITLY STATES that it discredits him

Actually yeah you kind of do have a point here... yeah that would be bad. Although given that she has diplomancy heroic that shouldn't be too much of a problem. Although once she kicks the bucket.. well yeah bad things that way.

hylas240 · May 14, 2017

Sivantic said:
Lol, now you are embarking on fearmongering yourself. We don't vote to keep things neutral, andhe throws a tantrum? And you would vote him in?

:lol

No it isn't. It is applying scrutiny instead of just nodding your head to the King putting her son as heir.

We have no reason to suspect any serious faults in his character (just being particularly horny), so this "scrutiny" will in fact end up with everyone inventing possible reasons for the lack of support from his mother. Everyone has independently agreed that he is the best candidate. They made their own decisions independent of any endorsement from the mother, so they aren't being idiot yes men/women as you are implying.

If his chances of being in the running for kingship wasn't dependent on a roll (which is random and not based on his skills, just how much people believe there's something wrong with him), then I wouldn't have as much of an issue with not supporting him.

Ghostdevil · May 14, 2017

pblur said:
On a complete tangent, how do you tag someone on this forum? (@Umi-san for instance.) To date, I've been quoting other people tagging the person and using those BBcodes...

Um... you literally just tagged...
OH you mean ok
Use the Shift 2 button

Umi-san · May 14, 2017

McLuvin said:
The 'misleading claims of others' are backed up by quotes and facts mate.

I'm just getting annoyed with how constantly obtuse you're being. And the lack of sleep

Also Duesal had to try very hard to make things clearer to you for you, only for you to then reveal that you already had knowledge of the subject and understanding, having an example Duesal didn't have ready.

No? They're backed up by quotes which never say "undisputed best guy," the claim that I am disputing. They merely say "he is such a great candidate" "he is in the running for Chief of Clerks" "he will be in the running for King." None of these match the definition of undisputed.

This forum is not worth your health. Make a post that sums up your side's points, then sleep.

No. Duesal quoted something that was convincing then bolded an unconvincing point. He then quoted it again, and underlined a different, convincing point.

Ghostdevil said:
This is why people are calling you disingenuous
Because AN EXPLICITLY states that being silent DISCREDITS HIM, the fact you won't acknowledge that is what is pissing so many off

I've acknowledged that this is likely.

I've also pointed out that the very quote you think of as explicit explicitly notes a possible reason for why his mother's silence does no discredit to him, but rather credits her. The fact that you won't acknowledge that is what is pissing me off.

Duesal said:
Much, much lower chances of him being able to pull through with his own merits if we discredit him by staying silent and not giving him the endorsement he's earned.

I'm confused, honestly. The quote + question seems to me to be asking if we can ~pick him~, which is necessarily next turn. I assume the issue is whether he'd live that long.

Also, I'm literally not voting on this issue so idk why I got involved... probably cus of the logical flaws.

Citino · May 14, 2017

[x] Support son (chance of -1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])

Umi-san · May 14, 2017

Ghostdevil said:
Um... you literally just tagged...
OH you mean ok
Use the Shift 2 button

Shift 2 button? What?

Ghostdevil · May 14, 2017

Umi-san said:
I've also pointed out that the very quote you think of as explicit explicitly notes a possible reason for why his mother's silence does no discredit to him, but rather credits her. The fact that you won't acknowledge that is what is pissing me off.

What.... Why the fuck would I acknowledge that? IT MEANS NOTHING WTF?
It doesn't credit her, it DIScredits her, since she smears her own son because of reasons NOONE BUT US SEE, and no one will learn of those reasons

Umi-san said:
Shift 2 button? What?

The @ symbol then a name lets you tag someone
You get the symbol with a shift then pressing 2

BungieONI · May 14, 2017

pblur said:
On a complete tangent, how do you tag someone on this forum? (@Umi-san for instance.) To date, I've been quoting other people tagging the person and using those BBcodes...

Edit: ... Apparently @foo just works.

Just type at symbol (@) followed by their name.

Like this @pblur.

Academia Nut said:
It's basically that the majority of the people who would actually be voting for him, the high level chiefs and shamans, would see that he really is the best candidate, but away from the halls of power you would get a lot of people going "Huh, king's son got in, wonder how that worked out..." and since the system doesn't typically have the leaders go from parent to child, it would get people suspicious that things are being gamed.

And yes, the idea of someone recusing themselves for conflict of interest isn't really a formal thing, and part of the selection process is having the social networks established among the rest of the rulers to get them to vote for you, so the idea of 'avoiding conflicts of interest' isn't even a thing and sounds completely ass backwards. If you aren't entangled with entrenched interests, why are you even running for king?

Hey @Academia Nut since you are here can you answer this question I've been having.

Is it okay to fuse the votes like this:

Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 1308 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.10.1
[x] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
No. of Votes: 72
[x] Support son (chance of -1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])
No. of Votes: 38
[X] Remain quiet (Next king is probably standard)
No. of Votes: 34
Total No. of Voters: 76

when the raw is this:

Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 1308 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.10.1
[x] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
No. of Votes: 72
[X] Remain quiet (Next king is probably standard)
No. of Votes: 34
[x] Support son (chance of -1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])
No. of Votes: 24
[x] Support son (-1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])
No. of Votes: 13

McLuvin
Crazy7s1
Falconis
godofsmallthings
Golden Eyed King
Lilithium
Manget
Piren'e Colass
Powerofmind
Reader of all
Sightsear
StarkDemise
Varano

[x] Support son (-1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])w
No. of Votes: 1

BlueFlamingWings

Total No. of Voters: 76

hylas240 · May 14, 2017

Umi-san said:
No? They're backed up by quotes which never say "undisputed best guy" the claim that I am disputing. They merely say "he is such a great candidate" "he is in the running for Chief of Clerks" "he will be in the running for King." None of these match the definition of undisputed.

If you're tired by a lack of sleep, go to sleep. There's enough people that your absence will have a negligible effect. Make a last post that sums up your side's points so that your allies can quote it.

No. Duesal quoted something that was convincing then bolded an unconvincing point. He then quoted it again, and underlined a different, convincing point.

I've acknowledged that this is likely.

I've also pointed out that the very quote you think of as explicit explicitly notes a possible reason for why his mother's silence does no discredit to him, but rather credits her. The fact that you won't acknowledge that is what is pissing me off.

I'm confused, honestly. The quote + question seems to me to be asking if we can ~pick him~, which is necessarily next turn. I assume the issue is whether he'd live that long.

Also, I'm literally not voting on this issue so idk why I got involved... probably cus of the logical flaws.

Since AN has said that people think he's the best candidate, along with no other mentions of people disputing him being the best person for the job, this is kinda what undisputed is.

Umi-san said:
If you're tired by a lack of sleep, go to sleep. There's enough people that your absence will have a negligible effect. Make a last post that sums up your side's points so that your allies can quote it.

You seem very snide and dismissive here, please tone it down.

pblur · May 14, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Also, I thought I didn't have to say it explicitly at this point, but can we all remember to be excellent to each other?

TotallyNotEvil · May 14, 2017

One can't seriously expect that social standing in general doesn't, or won't, affect how people treat you. That's pretty much hardwired on any human society.

The general's son will have much better odds of being made an officer than the potter's, both because of his father being whom he is, and also because, most likely, he has been trained from birth to be such. The genius of our system is that said potter's son can become a general himself, if he is good enough.

A previous' kings progeny will always have the heritage argument. We set up the election system to avoid the pitfalls derived from the consequences of said arguments. If said progeny happen to prove themselves to be the best candidate, then the system is working as intended. We didn't bar any others from competing for not being descendants of the previous ruler, we shouldn't bar the kid for, instead, being one. That's ridiculous.

Academia Nut · May 14, 2017

I'm getting 42 to 34 in favour of supporting the son right now.

Abby Normal · May 14, 2017

Academia Nut said:
It's basically that the majority of the people who would actually be voting for him, the high level chiefs and shamans, would see that he really is the best candidate, but away from the halls of power you would get a lot of people going "Huh, king's son got in, wonder how that worked out..." and since the system doesn't typically have the leaders go from parent to child, it would get people suspicious that things are being gamed.

And yes, the idea of someone recusing themselves for conflict of interest isn't really a formal thing, and part of the selection process is having the social networks established among the rest of the rulers to get them to vote for you, so the idea of 'avoiding conflicts of interest' isn't even a thing and sounds completely ass backwards. If you aren't entangled with entrenched interests, why are you even running for king?

...Oh yeah, we've got a 3-4 layer hierarchy between the king and the people, with the outlaying areas some 1000 km away (even if you ignore the march, 500 km, or more with the recent expansion) from the "capital", which isn't even an official capital yet because i think you've said we don't even have the concept of a capital yet, and people rarely leave their province, and only a bare fraction of our people are even marginally literate, and we're such workaholics that i doubt People have time to discuss the goings on of the higher ups much aside from the obvious things like change of heir and new work directives...

Also, i know you're already spending a lot of time on the actual updates, and have real life to deal with to, but would it be possible to get an updated map? I've lost track of where a lot of things are, even within our civ, let alone outside of it :/

BungieONI · May 14, 2017

Academia Nut said:
I'm getting 42 to 34 in favour of supporting the son right now.

K thanks for clearing that up AN.

Back to Planning I go! *zips off!*

Umi-san · May 14, 2017

Ghostdevil said:
What.... Why the fuck would I acknowledge that? IT MEANS NOTHING WTF?
It doesn't credit her, it DIScredits her, since she smears her own son because of reasons NOONE BUT US SEE, and no one will learn of those reasons

The @ symbol then a name lets you tag someone
You get the symbol with a shift then pressing 2

Oh I thought that it was some magic specific to this site. Kk.

I mean, the quote seems to indicate that people WOULD see why, but now AN's most recent response seems to point otherwise:

Academia Nut said:
part of the selection process is having the social networks established among the rest of the rulers to get them to vote for you

Though it also points out that this can and will be considered nepotism among the commoners:

Academia Nut said:
away from the halls of power you would get a lot of people going "Huh, king's son got in, wonder how that worked out..." and since the system doesn't typically have the leaders go from parent to child, it would get people suspicious that things are being gamed.

Though @Duesal (?) has brought up the point that his success afterward would make it clear that he earned the position fairly. Which is somewhat convincing, imo.

hylas240 said:
You seem very snide and dismissive here, please tone it down.

????? I was aiming for caring, so no.

Entropy Engineer · May 14, 2017

Umi-san said:
Shift 2 button? What?

Ah yes the @ or (at) symbol a glorious and useful button for all your needs first observed in a translation of a religious text in 1345...

<_<.. .>_>

no that wasn't sniping that was me wanting to use knowledge that I thought I'd never get an opening to use. Also all hail the @ symbol!!! It's a useful symbol that needs more love.

Ghostdevil · May 14, 2017

Umi-san said:
????? I was aiming for caring, so no.

Obviously, you failed
Crit Failed

Paths of Civilization

The Devil of Ghosts

The Devil of Ghosts

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

The Devil of Ghosts

Procrastinating.

Procrastinating.

The Devil of Ghosts

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Procrastinating.

The Devil of Ghosts