We want to do Copper Mine as a Main if we want benefits this turn. As a Secondary, we only get the Econ boost next turn, whereas if we do it as a Main it's this turn. That to me represents when we'll get the benefits of the action.
So how about a Copper Mine as main and Trade Missions as secondaries? That way we stop importing it and maybe even have a chance to start exporting it.
Primarily, that we get an extra action once we get 2 more provinces. We need to expand more, since having more people and more land is always a good thing.
Southern Shores and Eastern Hills seem like the best candidates due to being closer to Valleyhome and not open to nomads. Southern Shores is land that the HK might actually try to get so we want to claim it first, whereas the Eastern Hills are land that no one really would ever want.

We also want to drop Centralization so that we can make trails and/or Enforce Law without risking it going too high.
Then what's the urgency on the Copper Mine? We have a limited time to ensure good relations with the Thunder Horse and the Highland Kingdom.
 
....Huh. That raises more questions and speculations. It could be that ETH managed to find bronze on their own....or it could be that whatever the MW got are much more important.

Also, for the uninitiated, how big of a huge deal is it for a civ to gain bronze in this stage of history?

Bronze supposedly gave civilizations huge edge against other polity, as the bronze weapons are much more powerfully and easier to produce/repair than other weapons of that era.

It's also a great industry that produces lots of durable merchandises and is acceptable for gears/mechanical contraptions.

It's not impossible for Metal Worker and Eastern Thunder Horse to discover bronze at the same time. History is funny like that.
 
[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southshore
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horses
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom
[X] [Kick] The Garden

These are all time-sensitive actions. The copper mine is notably not.
 
We're at 5 econ. 3 megaproject actions and we're at 2, totally safe (we get +4 this turn from our actions with this list). We'd be at 4 progress out of 3-6, which has a good chance of finishing. If it doesn't, next turn can be policy switch and finish it ourselves, leaving 1 action open (or just do 4 actions ourselves if it needs 2 more progress)

[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden

Then what's the urgency on the Copper Mine?
METAL. It's a massive boost to all our economic actions, and it sounds like bronze is starting to be discovered. We need larger-scale practical metalworking and mining experience.
I'd like to send a trade mission too, but that's one priority down IMO compared to expanding and finally getting metal.
 
What's the urgency on the Southern Shores?
That it's prime real estate for the HK to secure that's not on the front lines with the rest of the Lowlands. I mean, the HK's Law giving them centralization is probably a given considering that's always been a much bigger issue for them then it has been for us, and that gives them a bigger margin of safety to expand with. Seriously, you don't have to be a genius to seek fertile land that both of your rivals can't attack in any way as a good grab. And it's been sort of implied the winner of the HK's civil war was a hero considering he's consolidating and writing out their Law already.

[X] [Main] New Settlement
-[X] Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden

Then what's the urgency on the Copper Mine? We have a limited time to ensure good relations with the Thunder Horse and the Highland Kingdom.
How do you figure? The Thunder Speaker already sent us a gift of thanks- that story has been pretty heavily resolved by now, and the HK didn't send a damn thing in thanks from what we can tell so it's hard to say if they'd be thankful enough that waiting a turn would noticeable reduce the value we'd get out of trading with them.

I don't mind sending a trade mission their way next turn, but it's entirely supposition that the HK will be more favorably inclined now than a turn later.
 
Last edited:
[] [Main] The Garden
[] [Kick] The Garden
[] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[] [Secondary] Copper Mine x2

I want to get Garden over fast WITH Symphony bonus. From the description, we aren't building a garden. We're building a fucking SEWER! We should maximize the likelihood that we get a bonus for future ones in redshore and elsewhere.

Plus, it frees us up from megaproject support sooner.

We need copper. We're critically behind in metal usage. Nuff said.
 
Analysis
Diplomacy 7->6 (+2) [+1]

Trade mission deduction, and looks like once it comes back we'd be at 9 Diplomacy. God knows how we'd spend it

Economy 6-?5

Down one for starting the Garden

Stability 2->3 (emboldened)

Capped Stability.
This is in line with earlier theories that excessive Stability might be a problem. Emboldened people take risks more often, which has appropriate consequences.
Stability 2 seems to be a good balance point.

Legacies
+2 Centralization Tolerance
+1 Hierarchy Tolerance
Rush Builders: Extended projects cost more per turn but complete faster
Rush Builders officially a Legacy now. Which is pretty cool, we need speed more than Economy.

The People were somewhat surprised by the swiftness of their own construction, so with the need for fresh water also something on their mind, the king approved a project that some had talked about around campfires for some time, which was to make a canal that flowed into a city to provide fresh water directly, instead of requiring to walk a significant way to the river or a well. It would also better help flush the drainage ditches and a few other considerations.
Okay, so projected benefits:
-Expanded Economy through labor savings
-Enables sewerage system discovery, which when we implement it would cut the Half-exile commitment to make black soil substantially by making it hydropowered.
Upper Valleyhome had long been considered a good place to start, as while it was at the top of a local high point it was still well below well watered hills with a pre-existing reservoir and irrigation network.

There would be a fair amount of earth moving required, but it was a relatively simple task all things considered to get a small canal down from those hills and into the city. What would be more complicated would be rearranging things to ensure that there would be proper waterflow throughout the settlement, which would require... basically every structure to be demolished and relocated, but since everything was already laid out on a grid and old buildings were often torn down and replaced anyway, the task was really more about accelerating the replacement schedule and moving things about during that time.

Streets would be widened, more boulevards put in place, and channels to carry fresh and waste water would be laid underneath brick lined streets. It would take time, but the project had multiple provinces for backing. While some of it was just for the prestige of it all, a big part was that the chiefs recognized that Valleyhome was a good test case to see if they could extend the concept to other large settlements.
This here is confirmation that we're going to be using Inverted Siphon methods(driving water uphill with gravity and pressure) of water delivery.

That this is primarily a planning project for plumbing and seweage.

And that overflow goes into additional aqueducts. If we overflowed.
Priorities makes getting extra aqueducts early less critical at least.

Mostly that while they weren't nearly as bad as rumours and legends suggested, they were still a thoroughly unpleasant lot, who yes, did have a wall studded with skulls around the centre of the city, which was at least as big as Valleyhome, if not larger.
Yep, still there. Gross.

There were, however, two additional layers of wall around the city: one around a vast sprawl of lower class and slave housing, and another, much lower wall that spread out to encapsulate the farmland around the city. This second one was primarily to make any chariot raids a much bigger pain than to really keep out dedicated attackers, but since chariot raids were the main threat it worked quite well at its job. While morbidly decorated at the gates, these newer walls were significantly less gruesome than the ancient structure that was still maintained with fresh blood and skulls, but thankfully no longer really expanded.
Tech transfer opportunity. This type of lower, cheaper walls would be very useful for the Stallion Tribes to copy, because all it needs to do is to keep chariots from building up momentum and it protects ALL the fields, not just the settlements.

Also they invented slums along the way. Yuck.
Enjoy your plague pits.

The spirits they paid tribute to in sacrifices both mundane and human were also about as bad as trade stories described, with more than a few traders considering that the Xohyssiri should get better gods once they were well away from the place, although there were a few that the People felt had some redeeming values, although most of those weren't the major ones that had big temple complexes... although perhaps the fact that they didn't have major temples that offered up at least one human sacrifice once a year had something to do with why the People didn't mind them so much. The one the People had the least issue with was definitely Tuultox, a spirit with the lower body of a snake and the upper body of a woman whose venom could serve as both disease and cure, something the more spiritually apt knew was true of most medicines, with the dosage and application making the difference. While they didn't exactly approve of some of the bloodier aspects, Tuultox also didn't demand active human sacrifice so for one of the major ones that put her leagues ahead of the rest.
I see a god getting imported here. Our shamans like her, though the Highlanders don't.

While not unique, the large loads of dye and precious metal had certainly made for a vigorous trade, netting rare cloths, beautiful artwork, and a few daggers of 'Eastern copper', a strange variation on copper that was used by a few of the Eastern Thunder Horse that held an edge much better than regular copper, and was a bit more golden in colour than copper. While still not terribly useful for making weapons, the knives made from the material were good enough to make a useful replacement for stone or wood variants. And then of course there was the big product: ceramics. The Xohyssiri had ceramics that exceeded anything the People made in terms of shape, patterning, and quality of glaze.
Cotton, Art, advanced pottery and the ETH have arsenic bronze. Not yet tin bronze however. But it's a start. The pottery is

Overall, while the People weren't entirely certain about any sort of continued relationship with the Xohyssiri, continued trade with them could probably be beneficial, and perhaps by talking to them they might introduce them to some non-psychotic spirits to worship, although there was some unease over the possibility of someone offering a heart up to Crow in the future. Also, fighting would probably block the route again in the future, but for the moment there would probably be good things coming up from the south for a time, and the People might learn a thing or two from the Dead Priests.
Eh, Crow already takes his own hearts. He doesn't need people to offer them. There are plenty of the dead to feast upon.

And here, Fighting would block the route in the future, so I suggest we have trade started up with the Highlanders and the Thunder Horse so that we can negotiate safe passage for our traders.

Improve Annual Festival - A festival for every season, but their expansion can help put the People at ease and teach good practices.
* M: -2 Econ, +1 Stability, +1 Art chance for additional effects
* 2M: -3 Econ, +1 Stability, +3 Art, chance for additional effects
* Max Stability: Legitimacy - 1


Restoration of Order - The people are uncertain, and into that uncertainty bad behaviour can flow. Send in the warriors to reassure people and root out corruption and dissent, restoring the proper function of the People. Max Stability: 0 or Legitimacy, whichever is lower
* S: Gain -1 to 2 Stability
* M: Roll twice, take best result
* modified by Administrative skill
Locked due to Stability cap.

Salt Gift - With the saltern, the People have access to tremendous amounts of salt, which can be used to awe outsiders
*S: -5 Diplomacy, random amount of Diplomacy, Art, and Prestige generated
*M: -5 Diplomacy, random amount of Diplomacy, Art, and Prestige generated (min. 1 of each) and the possibility of Mysticism generation
Ooo, this is enormous for spawning art and prestige. With the Salterns we can probably afford to do this every 3 generations or so.
Extended Projects- Extended Projects are major infrastructure projects that take more than a single Main action to complete but aren't as all consuming as megaprojects
Saltern - Need to find a new location through Survey actions or have more advanced technology to
No site yet. More Survey options.

So for now, we can leave the Garden to the provinces as they can still finish it in one turn(it only takes a min of 2 actions) with a Kick. We have work to do.

[X][Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horses
[X][Kick] The Garden
 
Hmm... I think we really want to have Copper this turn. We can either work on the megaproject ourselves(+kick) and virtually guarantee completion (via symphony bonus) or kick it but only put province effort in while also expanding.

I think I don't mind waiting an extra turn to finish the megaproject on the off chance we get lucky on only needing 3 or 4 out of a potential 6.
[] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[] [Kick] The Garden
(Not voting on it yet, the previous votes had incorrect formatting)

@Academia Nut
Are the Bleeding Cliffs supposed to be a settlement location? We found them but they're not on the list.
Ok good being here is my math, I do make some assumptions but I can't really do anything else and work this out:

Step 1: Econ 5 -> 5(-3 from mine, +5 from mine next turn, +1 from Southshore)(-2 Econ from Provinces: Garden, +2 from Provinces). Diplo 7(+1) -> 7(+1). Martial 8. Stab 3. Cent 5 -> 4. Myst 8 -> 9. More Econ slots.

Step 2: Econ 3 -> 3 ~(+2)(+1). Diplo 7(+1). Martial 8. Stab 3 -> 3 ~(-1). Cent 4. Myst 9.

Step 3: Econ 4 -> 4(+1 from Stewards, +1 from Garden, + 1 from New Settlement)(-2 from Province: Garden at worst,-1 from trails). Diplo 8(+1). Martial 8. Cent 4 -> 5. Myst 9 -> 10. More Econ Slots.
Stab may be at 2.

Step 4: Switched to Offense, resource drain of some form. Call it 2 Econ.

Step 5: Econ 2 -> 2(-2 from Us: Dam, +3 from Provinces)~(+ 2). Diplo 8(+1) -> 8(+1). Martial 8 -> 9~. Cent 5. Myst 10. Stab 3 or 2 -> (3 or 2) - 1.

Step 6: Resources in flux, sacrificed to Murphy.

Step 7: Econ 4 -> 4(+1 From East Hills, -2 Province Dam, +1 from Dam complete, +1 from Stewards). Diplo 9(+1) -> 9(+1). Martial 9~. Cent 5 -> 4. Myst 10 -> 11. Stab 1 is probably optimistic.

Step 8: Mid turn. Dam is done for sure. Switch to Expansion.

Step 9: Econ 4 -> 4(-1 from Trails, -2 from Festival)(+ 3 from Province actions). Diplo 10(+1). Martial 8~. Cent 4 -> 5. Myst 11. Stab 1 or 2.

Step 10: Take it on our faces.

Step 11: Econ 4-> 4(-2 from Boats, +1 end of turn, +1 next turn). Diplo 11(+2). Martial 8ish. Cent 5. Myst 11. Stab 1 probably.

Mystery +2 diplo too. Yum.

[] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Southern Hill People
[] [Kick] The Garden

For now. This is my go.

Full Plan here:

Step 1: Main Southshore + Secondary Mine + Secondary TM to HK or SHP

Step 2: Mid turn. Take things that come from the March, if such an option spawns. Remain on Mega Support. Take one Stab of Refugees if they come.

Step 3: Project Turn. Garden should finish or be finished already. Main New Settlement Stonepen + Main New Trails Stonepen. Lowlands probably blew up now

Step 4: Brace for Murphy. I'm just gonna assume the Nomads are back so switch to Offense Policy. Stab is high so take in Lowlands refugees or take them last step.

Step 5: Project Turn. Send Secondary TM to HK or SHP, whichever one we didn't send to in step 1. Main Dam + Kick Dam. Secondary Mega Support policy switch.

Step 6: Mid turn. Assume Dam incomplete. What's coming Senor Murphy?

Step 7: Project Turn. Dam should be or is about to be done. Main East Hills + Secondary TM TH. Plus Secondary War Mission to punch Nomads.

Step 8: Mid Turn. Dam is certainly done. Switch to Expansion.

Step 9: Project Turn. Main New Trails Northshore + Main Improve Festival.

Step 10: Mid turn. Tank what comes.

Step 11: Project turn. Main More Boats. Secondary Switch to Progress Policy. Secondary Expand Warriors.
 
Last edited:
We should maximize the likelihood that we get a bonus for future ones in redshore and elsewhere.
I'm fairly certain that it won't be a bonus, though there is a good chance that it'll be progress into the associated Extended Project.
For now. This is my go.
At 5 econ now. -3 from Copper mine, go to 2. Provinces are only willing to spend 1, we don't know how they'll respond. They might not work on it at all since that would drop us to 0 econ.
I don't want to take that risk.
 
This here is confirmation that we're going to be using Inverted Siphon methods(driving water uphill with gravity and pressure) of water delivery.
Actually, theres no evidence we're sending water uphill at all. I expect this to be a straight gravity feed in an open channel.
 
God knows how we'd spend it

Probably on this:

Salt Gift - With the saltern, the People have access to tremendous amounts of salt, which can be used to awe outsiders
*S: -5 Diplomacy, random amount of Diplomacy, Art, and Prestige generated
*M: -5 Diplomacy, random amount of Diplomacy, Art, and Prestige generated (min. 1 of each) and the possibility of Mysticism generation

[X][Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horses
[X][Kick] The Garden

I think we may want to change the "Thunder Horses" bit as the Western Thunder Horse are now the Thunder Speakers. To avoid confusion?
 
Last edited:
[X] [Kick] The Garden
[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Western Thunder Horse/Thunder Speakers
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom
 
I dislike the pollution, we need to pair it with study metal and study plants see how to deal with the poisons of the earth.

Well the biggest pollutant is the tailing waters, and we have water-resistant/tight tailing pond to keep it contained and burned. So we are already exceptionally advanced in that regard. Maybe we can attempt mix it in ashes to turn the sludge to more stable solids?

Besides, we need more experience with mining to identify problems for addressing.
 
METAL. It's a massive boost to all our economic actions, and it sounds like bronze is starting to be discovered. We need larger-scale practical metalworking and mining experience.
I'd like to send a trade mission too, but that's one priority down IMO compared to expanding and finally getting metal.
Yes, but that doesn't create urgency. The Trade Mission are time sensitive since we have no idea when the fighting will start up again
That it's prime real estate for the HK to secure that's not on the front lines with the rest of the Lowlands. I mean, the HK's Law giving them centralization is probably a given considering that's always been a much bigger issue for them then it has been for us, and that gives them a bigger margin of safety to expand with. Seriously, you don't have to be a genius to seek fertile land that both of your rivals can't attack in any way as a good grab. And it's been sort of implied the winner of the HK's civil war was a hero considering he's consolidating and writing out their Law already.

How do you figure? The Thunder Speaker already sent us a gift of thanks- that story has been pretty heavily resolved by now, and the HK didn't send a damn thing in thanks from what we can tell so it's hard to say if they'd be thankful enough that waiting a turn would noticeable reduce the value we'd get out of trading with them.

I don't mind sending a trade mission their way next turn, but it's entirely supposition that the HK will be more favorably inclined now than a turn later.
Okay, I can see us starting the Settlement.

It's time limited since we have no idea when the fighting will start up again. We try and send one during that time, we get dragged in. The Highland Kingdom were in the middle of a succession crisis. Note that the Thunder Horse had trouble talking to them too. Now however they are united again and drawing up some new laws. We saw hint of being able to influence each other in this very update.
 
This is in line with earlier theories that excessive Stability might be a problem. Emboldened people take risks more often, which has appropriate consequences.
Oh come on! There is absolutely nothing about that that suggests it's a problem. You're just illogically clinging to your old belief that too much stability is bad. An emboldened people are a good thing, as it means they're willing to endure tough things because they believe that everything will be alright in the end. You could even see that in the update the first time we hit Stability 2 when our people were Optimistic.

Seriously, there is no proof whatsoever that Stability 3 is bad except by making the worst possible interpretation of the descriptor. It's even in green! Green is good! At the very least let's give it a chance and see how it plays out instead of immediately deciding to downgrade from it. That kind of thing is way too similar to what old idiots set in their ways and afraid of new things do.
 
Last edited:
[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden

Because yes, I do value some things more than immediate trade missions. Copper is too overdue and getting that settlement up now is very important for lowering centralization for me.
 
Back
Top