On my part, I'd rate Place to the Stars higher than Great Dam. For one, the People already got a bunch of ways to prevent the worst of crisis that Great Dam would mitigate with all the nice irrigation systems and well-tended forest areas (to better absorb water). For two, PttS can lead off and branch to a lot more technologies. All those ways to navigate the waters would be useless if you don't get fast enough after all.

...On the other hand, none of us expected getting +1 Dip/turn before Currency gets invented for the Saltern so Great Dam could very well have some extra obvious-in-hindsight benefits.
 
I'm sorry the technology boost we could get from the Carrion Eaters, as well as reinforcing them in our culture, is more valuable than a one stability boost we can get later.

[X] Expand Carrion Eaters (-1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial, many more Carrion Eaters, additional effects)
[X] Xohyssiri
 
[X] Begin work on the Garden (-1 Econ, +1 Stability, starts megaproject)
[X] Metal Workers
So there is a risk that a dam could break during the construction phrase or after completion? It is an ambitious project. Maybe we should take it slow with the dam megaproject? Any civil engineer here?
Mechanical engineer here. There's a chance that it fails on construction, but that's not likely to be hugely destructive. This will probably fail down the road on a weather critfail. (Spring floods excessive for the design, inadequate maintenance.)

And literally, in RL, it will PROBABLY fail at least semi-catastrophically at some point. And wipe out part of whatevers downstream.
 
Mechanical engineer here. There's a chance that it fails on construction, but that's not likely to be hugely destructive. This will probably fail down the road on a weather critfail. (Spring floods excessive for the design, inadequate maintenance.)

And literally, in RL, it will PROBABLY fail at least semi-catastrophically at some point. And wipe out part of whatevers downstream.
Ok so we definitely need to put it somewhere where a failure WON'T be stupid destructive
 
Mechanical engineer here. There's a chance that it fails on construction, but that's not likely to be hugely destructive. This will probably fail down the road on a weather critfail. (Spring floods excessive for the design, inadequate maintenance.)

And literally, in RL, it will PROBABLY fail at least semi-catastrophically at some point. And wipe out part of whatevers downstream.
aka build it in the lower valleyhome so it screws over the badlands? got it
 
What is population density like anyway? I realize that for a copper age civilization we're basically as urban as you can get in some places but given that we've broken 100,000 people and it only takes a week or two to cross all our territory IIRC I have to wonder how dense things are getting.
You can basically call us the most densely populated civ. Due to our health and bullshit farming practices our infant mortality is super low for the era.

The HK don't have our farming practices and while they have similar land area to us when they aren't reaching out into the Lowlands, that lack of Proper Farmingtm​ and lack of medical knowledge means their population is far below ours. Remember that our civ is regularly having a four out of six infant mortality which is ridiculous for this time, and we are pushing three out of six.

The TH are getting better at farming, probs because we beat their ancestors ass like a heavy metal drummer at one point or another and we are farmers. They are also settled in a poor farming area however so their pop is still quite small, plus the raiding and the spread nature they have a low density in their lands.

The DP probably have a very skewed population density curve because of their Proto-Uruk behind the Skull Wall. There are more than likely slave-slums outside the Wall, which will give our people a fit of apoplexy if we visit, and then they have the tributaries and Lowland Minors that answer to them. But out of the Lowlanders they probably have a population approaching ours and rate the highest in total people if not land area.

Ok so we definitely need to put it somewhere where a failure WON'T be stupid destructive
AN mentioned that Lower Valleyhome is a good choice. Makes it a little difficult but avoids the re-enactment of the Fall of Isengard.

aka build it in the lower valleyhome so it screws over the badlands? got it
That'd probably have long term climate effects as the badlands are eroded and the geology changed.
 
[X] Expand Carrion Eaters (-1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial, many more Carrion Eaters, additional effects)
[X] Xohyssiri
 
The main concern with the Dam is if it is built, will the lowlanders know it is us? And if it is, do they try to attack us or appease us because holy shit we just stopped a river!
 
The main concern with the Dam is if it is built, will the lowlanders know it is us? And if it is, do they try to attack us or appease us because holy shit we just stopped a river!
Dams don't stop rivers, they regulate flow. They don't actually consume water (except briefly when filling the reservoir the first time.)
 
The main concern with the Dam is if it is built, will the lowlanders know it is us? And if it is, do they try to attack us or appease us because holy shit we just stopped a river!
Only if we tell them. :drevil:

Or they walk up and see this fucking artificial ridge/Super Wall.
 
I'm not really sold on the Dam. It's a decent edge against a super-drought, but we've already got a pretty big edge on that just with our various food preservation techniques and access to coastline and things like salted fish. We're also really damn good at irrigation already, I'd expect if a flood or super-drought did hit we'd have a chance to help save ourselves even without a megaproject.
The dam would probably function as a project that increases our civilization's engineer skills and allows us more control of our environment. Things like irregular or damaging floods will cease to exist as we will have total control over how much and how often the rivers flood. There is also the added benefits of aquaculture which will provide a whole new stable source of eco while providing our people with much need variety in their diet.

Really for me though the engineer experience is what I'm after. We haven't built many walls and most of our megaprojects are dug into the ground instead of being built on top of it, our most recent project being one of the few exceptions and I don't really see that as a major construction project. As I see it a dam is like a wall but way way more complicated seeing as how an ordinary wall only needs to be built up and is designed to just keep people out while a dam has to be built while the river is still flowing and needs to be designed to hold back an entire body of water while at times letting some of that water out in certain increments.

A dam would be a very first "mega structure" built upwards instead of just dug downwards and would give our civilizations all new insights into the construction and engineering of artificial structures. So I'm expecting our people to just become better at construction after this project.
 
OK, doing both isn't bad if we assuming one action per turn for each megaproject. However, that isn't likely to happen.

Turn 1 budget:

Initial: 5 econ for Garden project.
+1 econ from saltern.

6 econ.

-1 econ Dam.
-2 econ for kicked garden.

Then: 2x megaproject support for either garden or dam. That's -2 econ.

We spent 5 econ, which brings us down to 1 econ. 0 if we decides to kick the dam too, but maybe it's better to take our time with the dam project to get it right.
 
The main concern with the Dam is if it is built, will the lowlanders know it is us? And if it is, do they try to attack us or appease us because holy shit we just stopped a river!
It won't exactly stop- not for long, at least. It'll just stop while the dam fills up until it reeaches a certain point, and then outflow will be the same after that.
Also, just realized something- We have floodgates from the Saltern.
 
Bungie's New and Shiny Path to !!FUN!!
A reminder that I am attempting to be impartial. This is a consolidation of all the Paths I've looked at and the one The Path We Are On post that I did. From now on The Path has changed into more of a history post, with a prediction function for the other nations/groups we know about, much like the original Path did. It will also give as impartial as possible predictions on costs/benefits for leading votes. As we go this post will be carried along and progress consolidated.

Feel free to correct me on the history parts, but please cite a quote for your correction. If you can't find one point to when you think the event in question occurred and something will eventually be found.​

Blanket Work in Progress notice.

THE PATH

Warning: Very big post! Unspoiler at your risk!
The Ymaryn
Welsh Dwelfs. Have a completely bullshit ability to build Megaprojects. More to come later.

Recent Times
Well we gained a nice Legacy: Rush Building. We also gained Miniprojects in the form of Extended Projects. All because we finished the Saltern in about 15-20 years. You can just smell the bullshit.(So much salt)

We also rabbit punched Cholera and gave this guy:

A massive headache for when he woke back up. (Just like you imagined)(Healing Magic)
Our shamans invented Oral Rehydration Therapy, an effective counter to Cholera and many fevers and other diseases where someone is bedridden and unable to eat. We are awesome.
We also discovered empirical primitive sanitary theory which ties in nicely with our primitive germ theory of "demons casting spells". We are doubly awesome. (Just like you imagined)
Not so awesome is the idea that sin causes disease which cropped up because of Observance. (Healing Magic)
We also found a sedimentary iron deposit in (Just like you imagined). We named it the Bleeding Cliffs.

Tax Hell
Agghhhhhhhhh! It Burns!
Current Lead Votes after (Interlude - Local Religions):

A definite leader vote or group of leaders after the reset has not been collated/found.
Please check back later.


Costs/Benefits for each 1st Action vote:

Taking Expand Carrion Eaters:
[] Expand Carrion Eaters (-1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial, many more Carrion Eaters, additional effects), 1 free Main = + 2 secondary actions
-1 Econ = -1 secondary action, -1 Mysticism = -1 secondary action -1 Econ = -2 two actions total, +1 Martial = +1 Econ +1 secondary.

Total action cost = [- 1(Econ) - 2(Mysticism) + 2(Martial)] + 2(since it is a free mid turn action) = 1 secondary action generated.
Opportunity losses = No jumping right into the Garden. No Study Stars and Survey Lands.

Beginning Work on the Gardens:
[] Begin work on the Garden (-1 Econ, +1 Stability, starts megaproject)
-1 Econ = -1 secondary action, +1 Stability = +2 Econ +1 secondary action, -3 to -6 Econ = -3 to -6 econ based actions - 6 to 12 secondary actions, 1 free Main = + 2 secondary actions

Total action cost = -1(Econ) + 3 (Stability) - (3 to 6 econ based actions + 6 to 12 actions) + 2(free Main)= 4 secondary actions - anywhere from 9 to 18 secondary actions = -5 to -12 actions.
Opportunity losses = No expansion of Carrion Eaters. No Study Stars and Survey Lands.

Staring at the stars and poking the dirt:
[]Study Stars (continues chain) + Survey Lands
+1 Mysticism = +1 secondary action + 1 Econ, continues the chain, + surveying our lands = 1 secondary action(if this is only a secondary, cost changes if it is a main to -1 Econ)

Total action cost = + 2(Stars) + 1(Survey) or -3(Main Survey) + 2(free Main) = 5 actions or 2 actions
Opportunity losses = No expansion of Carrion Eaters. No jumping right into the Garden.

I feel like I fucked up this math. Someone please correct me on it.

Costs/Benefits for each 2nd Action vote:

[] Highland Kingdom
Opportunity = The Poppy trade becomes available. We establish some form of relations, hopefully friendly. Angry Scots are a pain in the arse to deal with. Perhaps finding out more about what is beyond their hills and mountains. We can also determine how stupid the New King is and how inclined he is gonna try to grab at the Lowlands while in the midst of a Megaproject. Hopefully not at all.

[] Metal Workers
Opportunity = We find out the advancement they made. We can see if we can use it, and plan for what we would need to do if we can't. We also check on this part of the world and see if there is trouble brewing from this axis due to a competitor or something. Also, what else has changed about them?

[] Thunder Horse
This is more ambiguous. Meeting with their new king would be good for relations. We can also determine more accurately how much of a problem the Eastern TH are and if we need to intervene.
They also might know some of the east and north east. What other social advances have they made? How do they see the Star Axe?

[] Xohyssiri
We can confirm how much of a douchey group they are. We can find out more about the world to the south and east and start the Poppy trade. We can also gain a better understanding of the tech level, even if we don't gain anything, of the second oldest polity in the region behind us.

[] No one (No cost)
Nothing really here besides just letting it all go as it will. Alea Iacta Est if you will. Also making friends with any one of these may obligate us to get involved in any snafu's they stick their silly dicks into.

The North
The Nomads
Ork Mongols. More to come later.

Recent Times
All seems quiet in the North. (So much salt)
Current projections:
1. They stay quiet another generation. Doesn't feel right, the "pendulum" if you will of their activity feel like it's on the upswing.
Benefits for Ymrri.
We get to do many personal projects and reinforce ourselves.

Costs for Ymrri.
Not very many. It drops our innovation of military tech but we have other avenues for that.

2. They begin raiding again. Feels more accurate, again the "pendulum" feels like it's on the upswing.
Benefits for Ymrri.
Not very many. It distracts from projects and stresses the March. If possible we might be able to reach out to others near us and gang together for mutual survival.

Costs for Ymrri.
Many. Will likely have to devote secondaries to support the March. If it is a Major Waaagh! everyone in the region is gonna have a problem.

The Lowlands
The HK
Scots. They call us The Ymaryn when speaking our tongue. More to come later.

Recent Times
They have consolidated under the New King. They have begun their own Law. We have heard tell from the Xohyssiri that they have Poppy access through trade. (So much salt)
Current projections:
A period of at best temporary stability. Now that it has been shown that rebellions can be a thing, we don't know if this one succeeded but the idea is now in place, the HK are on a shaky path.
Shoulda just went communist and not dealt with this shit. :V
Not currently at war with anyone in the Lowlands. Less likely to start because of Megaproject, which is also their first Megaproject. I approve. They have good taste in projects.

1. The New King holds it together.
Benefits for Ymrri.
The Poppy trade opens to us providing painkillers. We have a new connection to our directly southern neighbor across the Badlands. We have done this before and can help them with the Law, which will be easier for them since they seem to be coming out of a crisis rather than going into it. Plus making friends with Scotsmen is always lots of fun.
Far Future speculative(do not hold strongly): Perhaps we can eventually absorb them after a couple of millennia. We'd really have to work at it and this could be the first step of many hundreds.

Costs for Ymrri.
Well the HK are back on their feet. This means they can yoink the South Shores province which would be ungood. They can also push to war with the Lowlands again <.<
Sounds stupid while doing a Megaproject but we don't know how smart this New King is so he might just do it. That would cause so many lovely complications.

2. The New King can't hold it together and civil war/instability starts.
Benefits for Ymrri.
They are unstable and not likely to reach for Southshore. They are not going to be able to reach into the Lowlands, so it won't be them detonating the latrine down there. It also opens paths for us to support one side or another, preferably the one that can demonstratively prove they won't butt fuck us at the earliest opportunity. Any refugee gains will give tasty Econ.

Costs for Ymrri.
Depending on the severity of the instability, the Poppy trade might not go well. They also might throw off refugees if it gets really bad.

The Western TH
Settled Mongols. More to come later.

Recent Times
They are still fighting with their Eastern relatives, I am less certain but I believe they are also still raiding the Xoh as well. Some social advances are occurring in them. They're so precociously cute as our youngest eastern neighbors. (So much salt)
They came bearing gifts to us and translated for the DP delegates. (Healing Magic)
They are still fighting the DP and their East cousins. Cholera kicked their ass before we helped. (Healing Magic)
Current projection:
Still at war with the East TH. That clusterfuck is just feeding into the Lowlands. They might gain the upperhand or they may lose, or no one has an advantage.

1. They gain the upperhand against their cousins.
Benefits for Ymrri.
Well our Thunder Friends as Omegahugger calls them will be solid again and on the rise. They will provide a potential ally to us against the Northerners.

Costs for Ymrri.
They will now be stronger and more inclined to poke the Lowlands even harder. This will cause future problems. Especially if they go about it more actively and directly. They might expand in the direction of East Hills, though they will probably conflict with the HK before they do.

2. They are at a disadvantage.
Benefits for Ymrri.
The TH being more focused internally as they try to rebuff their relatives will make it difficult for them to really raid the Lowlands. How much those raids drop is up in the air and they may well increase as their people panic. Puts severe strain on their new hinted at social development. The East Hills will remain open.
Far Future speculative(do not hold strongly): Maybe it will influence them towards being Klingon.

Costs for Ymrri.
We have no one but ourselves to hold the north. Omegahugger becomes sad as Thunder Friends hurt.

3. The sides break even and it continues.
Benefits for Ymrri.
Well the situation is trending to a equilibrium of constant skirmishing. This will keep part of them occupied and less able to stick their dicks into the Lowland mess. They can still help us against the north.

Costs for Ymrri.
The fight with the East will not greatly distract them so the Lowlands subterranean coal fire will still continue as it has since Time Immemorial.

The Eastern TH
Not so settled Mongols. More to come later.

Recent Times
They still seem to be trying their hardest to ramrod attack their relatives. And they are also raiding the Xoh.(So much salt)
They appeared recently and have proceeded to fuck the Lowlands from yet another direction. They are fucking around in the magnesium fire of the Lowlands and causing the refugee generator to spin. (Healing Magic)
Current projections:
Still at war with the East TH. That clusterfuck is just feeding into the Lowlands. They might gain the upperhand or they may lose, or no one has an advantage.

1. They gain the upperhand.
Benefits for Ymrri.
Well our TH friends are going to be distracted and less likely to start something in the Lowlands. The Xoh are going to be hurting more as raids intensify. Any Econ from "suddenly refugees!".

Costs for Ymrri.
With the TH distracted the horde of the north can hit us harder. They might spark a refugee wave again.

2. They are at a disadvantage.
Benefits for Ymrri.
Well the Lowlands snafu might die down as they drop raiding levels against the TH and DP. They might also subsume into their western cousins. If we can have decent relations with the Xoh and they drop raids on them, I guess yay?

Costs for Ymrri.
The TH and DP will be on the rise again. This will almost certainly lead to more fuel for the SNAFU generator.

3. They break even.
Benefits for Ymrri.
Well the situation is trending to a equilibrium of constant skirmishing. This will keep part of them occupied and less able to stick their dicks into the Lowland mess. They can still help us against the north.

Costs for Ymrri.
The fight with the East will not greatly distract them so the Lowlands subterranean coal fire will still continue as it has since Time Immemorial.

The DP(Xohyssiri)
Slave taking assholes. Apparently moderating and the most ancient polity in the region besides us. More to come later.

Recent Times
Their healers have had the full Ymrri treatment and have seen much of our Works. They are still in the West TH/East TH three way. They told us of Poppy and have access to it. (So much salt)
They came to us and gave us Ancient Human Anatomy. There is definitive indications in what they said that not all of them are assholes and that moderates are in some form of power. (Healing Magic)
Current projections:
1. They don't gain advantage in the three way.
Benefits for Ymrri.
The three way continues as is leaving open Eastern Hills. Any Econ from "suddenly refugees!"
This also keeps them from pulling back to being an actual threat and lessens the chance we need to hit the Big Red Exterminatus Button. Which would not be good for the region.
Poppy trade can be opened easily.

Costs for Ymrri.
The three way continues. More refugees can be spawned.

2. They gain advantage in the three way.
Benefits for Ymrri.
The Poppy trade opens wider and some tech trading might occur. All dependent on them not being hostile. Pushing back the West TH and East TH will change that dynamic and something useful could pop out. A unified TH would be a powerful ally.

Costs for Ymrri.
They become an increased threat and the risk of Exterminatus being used increases. East Hills settlement availability threatened.

The Western Sea
The MW
IMG not found at this time
A Kingdom. More to come later.

Recent Times
They have discovered something. (So much salt)
We don't know details. They seem stable since we have not gotten tell of them imploding recently through our trade link. (Healing Magic)
Current projections:
1. They do not implode.
Benefits for Ymrri.
We get more imported metal to study and make into luxuries. Their recent discovery might filter to us through this connection.

Costs for Ymrri.
They are very limited. The status qou is beneficial and not much seems headed our way from their direction. I mean this connection is keeping us from going full isolation, if you want to find a downside?

2. They stop trading.
Benefits for Ymrri.
Not many.

Costs for Ymrri.
No more imported metal which is annoying. Not harmful because we have mine options available.
We stop getting imported metal to study and make into luxuries. Much less indication on what they found. Potential new threat axis opens depending on why they stopped. If they were wiped out or severely injured by a competitor then we have potential problem on the horizon.

The South Raiders
IMG not found at this time.
Vikings. More to come later.

Recent Times
They seemed to have calmed and are the HK's source of the Poppy.(So much salt)
Very quiet on this front. (Healing Magic)
Current projections:
1. They stay quiet.
Benefits for Ymrri.
We don't have to deal with their bullarky. Last time it didn't rate even a secondary but is sure was annoying. Also time spent not explodinating is time spent making advances we can use by trading.
Far Future Speculative(do not hold strongly): They will probably be the first to find out how to copper clad their ship bottoms which is a big step towards deep sea sailing.

Costs for Ymrri.
Less inclination for naval innovation.

2. Something stresses them again and the raids reignite.
Benefits for Ymrri.
Naval innovation pressure.

Costs for Ymrri.
More raiding. Yay...*unenthusiastic flag waving* The Poppy trade into the region will be somewhat disrupted, making the only easy source the Xoh.

The Unknown Edges

We have heard of parties to the East, likely more variety of the Nomad. The Xoh get their cotton from the east.
South of the DP are the Swamp People, an entire tributary civ which acts as their Blackbird equivalent.
South west, past the mountains of the HK and past the presumed home of the Southern Raiders are tales of a great desert and a paradise within. Some variant of Not!Egypt or Not!Syria.

Recent Times
We have very little knowledge outside our sphere. We also have a chance to learn more by picking trade partners.(So much salt)
We have no clue. There are indications that the DP are getting cotton from somewhere out in this area. (Healing Magic)
Current projection:
Something might come out of here like the East TH did. Or it might not.
Benefits for Ymrri.
Indeterminate.

Costs for Ymrri.
The Eastern TH popped out of the wood work and have proceeded to make life in the Lowlands even more difficult. This indirectly screws with us, especially since we have Cosmopolitan Acceptance now and cannot refuse refugees. Good thing the first Stability hit has a chance to be negated.


It won't exactly stop- not for long, at least. It'll just stop while the dam fills up until it reeaches a certain point, and then outflow will be the same after that.
Also, just realized something- We have floodgates from the Saltern.
Good catch. Even if we don't have full floodgates we have sluicegates at least and that will help a lot.

Anyway folks I hope you enjoy. This ridiculous beast has been 3 days in the oven so hope it tastes good. I will be adding more and plotting out more history, reaching back further, as we go and I have time.
 
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I'm not really sold on the Dam. It's a decent edge against a super-drought, but we've already got a pretty big edge on that just with our various food preservation techniques and access to coastline and things like salted fish. We're also really damn good at irrigation already, I'd expect if a flood or super-drought did hit we'd have a chance to help save ourselves even without a megaproject.

Notions of using the Dam as a weapon are just kinda silly and impractical at best.

Yeah, neither am I. I'm really worried about the ecological impacts of a dam as they cause so much disruption in river ecologies.
 
How long would it take to fill the reservoir then?
Considering how irregular the river already is the time it takes to fill the reservoir won't even be noticed. At most some people will think, "Oh the river is late... again.... like it was that time two years ago or seven years before that."

If anything what will be noticed is how regular the flood waters become, but nobody is going to complain about a good thing.
 
As I see it a dam is like a wall but way way more complicated seeing as how an ordinary wall only needs to be built up and is designed to just keep people out while a dam has to be built while the river is still flowing and needs to be designed to hold back an entire body of water while at times letting some of that water out in certain increments.
And this is why when we get around to building the dam, I do not want it to be in the Valley Home. Since we haven't gotten experience with regular walls, there's a greater chance of failure with the dam. If that happens I'd rather the resulting flood wash into the Badlands instead of wiping out our population.
 
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