Well, as long as we survive in the end, I think it'll have been worth it. We've got The Law, which was the advancement we were hoping to farm. We've potentially got a heroic leader who we really should've probably voted in last turn, but oh well. Here's hoping that avoiding hereditary land transfer was worth it.

Huh, I'm understanding things just fine. :/
It'd be nice if you could explain this one to me- I thought I understood it, but this one is contradictory to my understanding.
Provinces work under the assumption of 4 - 2 = 2 and thus can take an Expand Holy Site action, which is upped to a Main, costing 2 Econ and bringing you down to 0.
This one is given

M Expand Economy
S Festival
S War Mission Nomads

Which leaves us at 3 econ (ignoring expansion) and thus 2 econ available for the provinces. The numbers don't seem to add up since if the provinces take a [Secondary] Expand Holy Sites -> Upgrade from The Law, then 2 econ is spent putting us at 1 instead of 0. Where did I go wrong?
 
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No, not unless you're doing something crazy like dumping every last action into a megaproject or something like that.



I have been meaning to post a creation myth, so yeah, I could probably reset things...



Provinces see we have 1 Econ, take no actions that cost Econ. If it followed your plan you would end up at -1 Econ when Expand Holy Site got bumped to a main action and cost 2 Econ when you only had 1. Thus that plan is automatically rejected.



Provinces work under the assumption of 4 - 2 = 2 and thus can take an Expand Holy Site action, which is upped to a Main, costing 2 Econ and bringing you down to 0. The Admin roll is probably good enough to avoid any trouble, but there is a chance that because of the economic chaos you lose -1 Econ before the Expansions kick in, and flicker under 0 Economy, and thus 1 Stability.

Yeah, there are enough misconceptions, gonna do a mythology interlude and reset the vote.
I think you should add an hour delay on votes or something. Seems to work in other quests.
 
[X] Sivantic

...Well, we'll just have to see how this plays out. I'm a bit frustrated at the fact I feel like if we had a chance to just switch to some of the earlier tax system proposals like quota pp and a flat luxury tax to avoid confusion a lot of this drama could have been avoided- that would likely have reduced the extreme literacy requirements to quell the crisis. It's land ownership that seems to be a sticking point, which is ironic given the 'traditionalists' want to change it.

At this point, no matter what doom results, I just want it over with so we can address something else that's less disheartening.

On the other hand, I get the feeling we were due drama one way or another no matter how we tried to handle this.
 
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*excited*

Guilty Speculative Fanfic:
Crow = Ra/Coyote, negotiating with the other celestial spirits, has a daughter (with a terrestrial spirit? From his head? His two eyes, the sun and moon, cross during an eclipse and spawn her. Yeah, that one.), Gwygo.
Gwygo = a Bastet + Athena + Prometheus combo pack, combative, chaotic, and unexpected. Boldly seizes the breath of life from terrestrial spirits, runs to a river, and makes man out of the breath and the mud. Afterward becomes super protective, but is kind of bad at it. Her dad, Crow, is calmer, kind of amused, and feels responsible for the little things his daughter has created. He tries to teach us, ends our lives when we're suffering too much or it's better for us overall, but is still a little weird and unpredictable.

Vaguely like Nahadoth from The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms.

idk.

@BungieONI Okay... stop offering tea. It's passive-aggressive.
That was actually a genuine offer. Not even trying to be passive aggressive in the slightest. Sorry. :(

It's just meant to be a funny little joke based off my avatar. I mean really she looks like she's a tea drinking lady. At least in my head.

E: Anyhoo I like the creation myth you got going. Not sure about Gwygo's role in it. It certainly makes sense, but I would think that the Myth would have some kind of conflict with the Prideful King(wish I remembered his name) we had. Like maybe Crow finding us under slavery by this guy and he rescues us from him to take us to our current land.
 
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That was actually a genuine offer. Not even trying to be passive aggressive in the slightest. Sorry. :(

It's just meant to be a funny little joke based off my avatar. I mean really she looks like she's a tea drinking lady. At least in my head.
.... so like, in case you didn't know tea, e.g. "serves tea" "sip tea" etc., is currently a sardonic meme involving dispensing painful, sarcastic truth and/or laughing at the stupidity of others.

Also, she looks more like someone who sips gin on the rocks.
 
.... so like, in case you didn't know tea, e.g. "serves tea" "sip tea" etc., is currently a sardonic meme involving dispensing painful, sarcastic truth and/or laughing at the stupidity of others.

Also, she looks more like someone who sips gin on the rocks.
*shrug* Ahhh Nope didn't know that.

For me it is mostly just what it looks like. A means to pass the time in companionable harmony while waiting for the next update.

Every single time I've said it I meant it as a pax/offer to share/be nice/desire to just hang out and wait for more AN awesomeness. Basically most positive things you could think of that aren't lewd.

As to gin on rocks I could see that too.

I had an addendum to the Creation Myth speculation:

Not sure about Gwygo's role in it. It certainly makes sense, but I would think that the Myth would have some kind of conflict with the Prideful King(wish I remembered his name) we had. Like maybe Crow finding us under slavery by this guy and he rescues us from him to take us to our current land.
 
Huh, I'm understanding things just fine. :/
...Wait, weren't you one of the people thinking expand economy could let our provinces do more? Like, not to be an ass but if i am remembering right then you didn't understand things just fine...
Well, as long as we survive in the end, I think it'll have been worth it. We've got The Law, which was the advancement we were hoping to farm. We've potentially got a heroic leader who we really should've probably voted in last turn, but oh well. Here's hoping that avoiding hereditary land transfer was worth it.


It'd be nice if you could explain this one to me- I thought I understood it, but this one is contradictory to my understanding.

This one is given

M Expand Economy
S Festival
S War Mission Nomads

Which leaves us at 3 econ (ignoring expansion) and thus 2 econ available for the provinces. The numbers don't seem to add up since if the provinces take a [Secondary] Expand Holy Sites -> Upgrade from The Law, then 2 econ is spent putting us at 1 instead of 0. Where did I go wrong?
The provinces aren't worried about our endstate, they're worried about not getting too close to 0.
With that example, we start the turn with 4 econ.
Then, we have 1 midturn econ expense and 2 midturn econ gain from our civ actions
At this point, our provinces look at things and say "Ok, so we have 4 econ in the stockpile, and 1 midturn expense. We want to maintain at least 1 econ at all times, even in the worst case scenario admin roll. Therefore, we can only spend 2 econ period"
This is because in the worst case scenario our actions get processed:
Start (4 econ) -> Festival (3 econ) -> main holy sites (1 econ) -> war mission (1) -> Main expand econ (3) -> other province actions that don't cost econ (3+)
Imagine if the provinces did 2 main holy sites because the main expand econ will pay for one, and then the admin roll is bad so the actions go:
Start (4 econ) -> Festival (3 econ) -> main holy sites (1 econ) -> main holy sites (-1 econ) -> other actions
Even if we'd end up at positive econ in the end, we'd have hit -1 econ in the middle, triggering a stability hit. Therefore, the provinces ignore any midturn econ gains, in order to be cautious
 
Cosmogeny
There are stories of where the People came from, of kings and heroes of ages past, but the question comes, where did the Land come from? The World?

To that, we must cast our imaginations back, to before there were people of any kind. Once there was nothing, no land or sea or sky. All was one, neither hot nor cold; light nor dark; hard nor soft; male nor female. All was as a sea of mud in every direction, formless and void.

All was Gygo.

How long it was this state is unknowable, but eventually Spider-Eyed Crow came in from the Dark Beyond Dark. Seeing all was Gygo and yet desiring for a place to rest, he whispered to that which was without form, and taught it To Be. Such that it was that light separated from dark; water from earth; hot from cold. Thus it was that the shape of the world was sketched from the void, such was it that Gygo separated into Gwy and Goya, the First Spirits. Born of Spider-Eyed Crow's teachings and from the Gygo, these spirits sought to continue, but they were incomplete and their works soon crumbled.

Seeing his creations at work, Spider-Eyed Crow sought out to teach them, but when they beheld his visage they were frightened and hid away. Ashamed at having created beings which feared him, Crow tore off his own face thrice, so that he could be Teacher, Trickster, and Devourer and thus speak more easily. Thus it was that he taught the First Spirits further.

Neither male nor female and yet incomplete, upon tutelage Gwy and Goya found that their creations could only be completed with the aid of the other. Thus were a new generation of spirits begat, who in turn learned from their parents and from Crow, continuing the division and differentiation. The sun and moon and stars populated the skies and mountains, rivers, and rivers populated the surface. Male and female came to be, each needing the other, and the world was populated with plants and animals.

And then the spirits did look upon the world and they said, "We have made this garden, but can it remain this way?"

And Crow did say, "Not without wisdom."

"Are we not wise?" The spirits asked of Crow.

"Do you think you are?" Crow asked in turn.

The spirits considered this and then said, "You have taught us much, so surely you must have taught us wisdom." And so it was that the spirits gathered together mud, that which was closest to the original Gygo, and moulded it into their shape, whispering to it to remember all that Crow had taught the World since he had come from the Dark Beyond Dark, and giving their blood unto their creation. Clay became flesh, the blood of spirits became the lower spirit, and the whispers of Crow became the upper spirit. Descendant of all spirits, she was Gygowyn, and she was incomplete, for she was made without a partner. The spirits went to recreate their creation, only to discover that they had used up all the Gygo in the world to make Gygowyn.

Seeing that she would be forever alone Gygowyn cried, "I am without a partner, and thus cannot continue."

The spirits then did say, "You are born of the clay of creation, of our blood, and of Crow's wisdom. We shall provide our spirits if you provide the shells, and your children shall be of male and female and shall continue."

So it was that some of the spirits volunteered to be devoured by her, to enter into her womb so that they might animate new flesh and spring forth as the First People and thus provide both male and female. In doing so, they forced a gap that would remain forevermore, where extra spirits might wander in as Third Souls.

The First Man, Arxyn, was born this way, and he did say, "This world is now complete, for we are wise and will maintain this garden that we have made."

Sitting nearby, Crow did chuckle softly to himself, and whisper, "My lessons are not complete."

---

Okay, because there has been some confusion:

When taking actions, the provinces only budget based off the the assumption of
(Current Econ) - (King's Econ Consuming Actions) - (Their Actions) >= 1

Thus if the current Econ is 4, and the players take 3 Econ worth of actions, the provinces will not take any Econ consuming actions, even if the players actions would pay out Econ by the midterm. If the provinces have Policy actions that would be upgraded to be Main level actions and would thus cost more than at the Secondary level, this is also used as part of the assumptions that go into planning out what they do.

Also, as a reminder, if you voted previously for the turn's actions, you need to revote because the tally now starts from this threadmark.
 
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The provinces aren't worried about our endstate, they're worried about not getting too close to 0.
No, I got that. Maybe it's just the wording of AN's response that's throwing me off?
bringing you down to 0. The Admin roll is probably good enough to avoid any trouble, but there is a chance that because of the economic chaos you lose -1 Econ before the Expansions kick in, and flicker under 0 Economy, and thus 1 Stability.
This says that that plan causes us to reach 0 at some point during the plan before the crisis roll is applied. How is that possible?
 
[X] [Main] Expand Holy Sites
[X] [Secondary] Expand Holy Sites
[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
 
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@Academia Nut
No, not unless you're doing something crazy like dumping every last action into a megaproject or something like that.
So, given the vote
[Main] Expand Holy Sites
[Secondary] Expand Economy
[Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
Would The Law apply the doubling to a province Expand Econ or the player's Expand Holy Sites?

edit: I'm assuming that this vote would make the provinces take 3x Expand Economy. If this is incorrect please explain why.
 
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[X] [Main] Expand Holy Sites
[X] [Secondary] Expand Holy Sites
[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival

This is the only way to potentially end this crisis

Symphony Trait boosts simultaneous mystic projects so this is our best hope of meeting all the requirements by the end of this turn.-. They will do Econ projects of their own to ensure we don't have problems with Econ, and only we can provide stability projects.
 
Which is all well and good, until the rest tilt their heads and go "Wha? :confused:" :V

Want some tea?

I want some tea, and maybe a decaf. I'm lost in trying to figure out this comment:

1. The bonus action from The Law only applies to Policy Actions, which with the Spirits policy is only Expand Holy Sites and Study Stars. Study stars can't be doubled, so the only way to get that bonus action is for our provinces to take (and double) expand holy sites...which only happens if we spend at most 1 econ. If we do the holy sites ourselves, we're missing out on an action, whereas if we let the provinces do so we get a free secondary action.
The first sentence I somewhat understand, our people need to take holy sites twice. The second sentence is lost on me.

Can someone bring up the plans with a list of pros and cons. I am still somewhat lost after the update and what it means.

I want to succeed...
[X] [Main] Expand Economy
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Northern Nomads
[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival

The dream could not last forever.
 
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[X] [Main] Expand Holy Sites
[X] [Secondary] Expand Holy Sites
[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival

It's a risky plan, but it could work.
 
Can we wait until the following question is answered?
@Academia Nut
If the provinces are forced to take 3x Expand Economy due to our choices bringing us to very low economy, does The Law apply the doubling to a province Expand Economy or the players' Expand Holy Sites?


If it doubling is applied to the Expand Economy, we have no way of getting enough shamans unless 1 main 1 secondary is enough (which seems very unlikely). As such we should focus on making sure we survive the crisis fail state.
If it is applied to the Expand Holy Sites, then we can make sure we take a single [Main] Expand Holy Sites, which is doubled since it's the only policy action available. That gives us a chance to pass, since 2x [Main] might be enough.
 
@Academia Nut

So, given the vote
[Main] Expand Holy Sites
[Secondary] Expand Economy
[Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
Would The Law apply the doubling to a province Expand Econ or the player's Expand Holy Sites?

edit: I'm assuming that this vote would make the provinces take 3x Expand Economy. If this is incorrect please explain why.
The Law only applies to provincial actions
Policies give directive to the provincial chiefs and allow for greater flexibility in provincial actions, including combining the actions of multiple provinces into Main actions and spending resources even if not normally allowed

If we do an Expand Econ action, yes, there is a chance that it would combine with a province's econ action. However there are no added benefits from making it a Main action. Doubling it may have some effects, but really next Turn Econ isn't a problem. Literacy and trying to solve it now is.
 
The spirits considered this and then said, "You have taught us much, so surely you must have taught us wisdom." And so it was that the spirits gathered together mud, that which was closest to the original Gygo, and moulded it into their shape, whispering to it to remember all that Crow had taught the World since he had come from the Dark Beyond Dark, and giving something unto their creation. Clay became flesh, the lineage of spirits became the lower spirit, and the whispers of Crow became the upper spirit. Descendant of all spirits, she was Gygowyn, and she was incomplete, for she was made without a partner. Some spirits volunteered to be devoured by her so that they might animate new flesh and spring forth as the First People, but in doing so they forced a gap that would remain forevermore, where extra spirits might wander in as Third Souls.

This part is slightly rough. The bolded could be broken up more. The "lineage of spirits" is honestly kind of confusing. Do you mean that the lower spirit residing in the clay is the spirit that went into the clay, as in the bolded? This wouldn't work well because that idea hasn't been introduced yet. So it must be that it's the "something" the spirits gave unto their creation, but this makes me confused as to a) how the spirits propagate naturally and the "something" in people continues to spread while retaining the same density, b) why more than one spirit needed to be devoured, and c) how these spirits that were devoured interacted with the "something." Why is it "whispers of Crow" rather than "Crow's teachings"? It's the spirits who whispered.

I'd maybe have Gygo be split into Gy and Go, cus it's more amusing and having one rather than 2-3 phonemes expresses how their nature is to some degree simpler than that which they were fashioned from. It also allows the "wyn" of Gygowyn to mean something like "-daughter/-child/result of." But idk how your con/art-lang is.

It's a good creation myth though. It nicely combines the typical tropes of a large body of different creation myths in a comprehensible and quest-consistent manner.
 
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"Sometime you have to roll the hard six." -- Commander Adama, Battlestar Galactica.

"Alea iacta est." -- Julius Caesar as he cross the Rubicon river.

Either we risk not fulfilling our objective by taking an econ hit, OR, we fail anyway by doing it with only half-heartness. There are no longer easy choices. No re-arrangement or reconfiguration will give us an assured outcome.
 
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