False. Chibi Dazarel is a unimaginable threat to small rodents, unguarded ankles and the corners of furniture.
Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Scotland
I never said we could I said that we could control the seal and as a direct result of that it is up to us who can talk to him and therefore try and get knowledge aka power his raw power is not involved in that in any way
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
What if they have a spaceship handy? I mean, the Senzus already have one, we've captured one that used to belong to the alien scouts AND has good enough stealth to escape detection via ki sense. After the alien army arrives there may be quite a number of captured spaceships on the planet for a would-be renegade faction to choose from.
"Release the dragon and your sibling(s) live and escape with us, refuse and they die."
Unlikely, but not impossible.
Renegade saiyans might want to push the reset button on Exile culture, destroying it and founding a new culture and "this time, do it right!" They might well consider Garenhuld Exile culture 'unfixable,' perhaps due to the combination of the effects of Masques and the nature of the Garenhulders themselves.
I'm not strawmanning voter intent, I've explicitly said that most of the voters DON'T want a power-hungry Kakara.
I'm fearmongering because I honestly think there is something to fear here, namely that like every other time Kakara carried out major actions that wrapped up a plot, her traits will definitely be evolving after this event resolves. And like the previous times, it is likely that Kakara's traits will evolve along lines not all of us predicted, and possibly along lines not all of us desire.
I don't think many of us expected Protector to arise out of destroying a bunch of inanimate objects and talking down people who were trying to kidnap us- we were pleased that it did, but we didn't see it coming.
I don't think many who were active in the quest at the time expected all Kakara's traits and reputations resulting from the Garenhuld II Conference to play out the way they did, either.
It is entirely predictable that Kakara will experience trait gain, change, or evolution depending on how she handles this decision. And it is entirely possible that the changes in question may include some undesirable or ambiguous lines.
I suspect the damage he's likely to cause to his surroundings as a chibi-dragon* is about on par with what the average saiyan baby would cause, probably less. If we keep him somewhere sturdy that's not an issue.
He can still be reformed morally as a chibi-dragon. Probably more easily than as a passenger inside Kakara because people who aren't super-busy Kakara can stop to interact with him. Kakara spends so much of her time doing things she'd rather not have the dragon's commentary on, or doesn't want anyone to know about, that she's going to be keeping Dazarel shut out a large fraction of the time. Dazarel spending much of his time locked in a psychic bottle, and only being let out to talk to his jailer, isn't necessarily the kind of thing that makes him easier to reform.
Part of the reason I'm worried about Kakara developing bad traits here is because of the messiah complex implicit in saying not just "I want to reform the dragon," but "only I can reform the dragon." One of the recurring vices of the saiyans is pride, after all.
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*except for infohazard threats that Dazarel would already have used in an attempt to break his captivity, disrupt the sealing, or win the fight... assuming he had any knowledge of the information in question.
- Location
- Europe
I never said physically dangerous. I said dangerous for his surroundings. You understand there's a difference, right? This old-as-fuck dragon that's been around for hundreds of years likely knows a ton of stuff that would be extremely dangerous in the wrong hands, not to mention the secrets he might've uncovered from our mind.
Furthermore, I've been reading through the same thread as you and I'm not seeing the power-argument being the primary reason why people vote for head-dragon. It's a consideration but the most liked pro head-dragon posts haven't had that as their central theme.
- Location
- U.S.A.
There are a lot of what ifs in this situation. Coming down on a trait evolution of all the things that might go wrong (all of which that would impact quest enjoyment for various people ofc) feels like reaching for me. There are so many other things that are vastly more likely to go wrong. For instance, Yammar deciding to kill the powerless dragon once Kakara looks away. I certainly know I'd be unhappy if an interesting character like Daz got knocked off because of something like that. I'm surprised the myriad downsides of having chibi daz running around haven't come up in your own analysis.
I agree with this completely. Head seal makes it harder for Dandeer to directly oppose us via magic (what if some spell messes with the seal) and all of that. I hadn't thought about the extra power giving us a better chance to resist, but given how Jaffur was able to fight the seal (for a brief period) using SS form, you might be onto something.
There's also the paranoia factor that Dazarel might know about the conspiracy now, even if he hasn't grasped the significance. Leaving him out is a big failure point.
This is incorrect. If we seal him inside of us, it's been stated that we can let him out at any point. Obviously, that means that if we're going to be too old, it's a simple matter to either go Spirit Saiyan again and reseal him in the exact same way. This is actually simpler than ever breaking the seal on his chibi form (assuming that the point of this is actually rehabilitation and not just blowing smoke).
Citation.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
Mostly my worry about the Chibi option is the possibility that he might just fall by the wayside in favour of more rewarding options.
Like, I understand people arguing that he could be socialised as a chibi, and I agree, but people would still remember and see that this is the same genocidal asshole that nearly killed a lot of people, and he would just generally be insulting and caustic towards anyone lending him a hand. That leaves Kakara, and she has a lot of stuff on her plate already, most of which is more important than trying to get through to him.
I'm still fine with either, but I hope Kakara maintains an attempt at reformation throughout the years.
Like, I understand people arguing that he could be socialised as a chibi, and I agree, but people would still remember and see that this is the same genocidal asshole that nearly killed a lot of people, and he would just generally be insulting and caustic towards anyone lending him a hand. That leaves Kakara, and she has a lot of stuff on her plate already, most of which is more important than trying to get through to him.
I'm still fine with either, but I hope Kakara maintains an attempt at reformation throughout the years.
- Location
- Dual citizen of SV&SB
Honestly, I just dislike vote weighting as a mechanic at all. If something is I. Character, its an option to vote on. I'd prefer killing to not even be an allowed option rather than having it at a .1x modifier....
I just don't get why two in character options have different weighting. It's the ambitious trait that should allow us to even vote to seal him inside us, but it goes a step further and skews the vote.
It is rarely used in quests for a reason.
I just don't get why two in character options have different weighting. It's the ambitious trait that should allow us to even vote to seal him inside us, but it goes a step further and skews the vote.
It is rarely used in quests for a reason.
I want Chibi Dazarel because I think we need a kid appeal mascot character to really reach that eight and under demographic, and I don't want Dazarel to be exclusively Kakaras problem.
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- Location
- Virginia
[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almost completely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).
- Location
- U.S.A.
Yeah, the kid appeal mascot that screams about destroying our entire race a la the enemy? Yes, that will have great appeal, lol. Besides that, I'm pretty sure "the people's princess Kakara" has a lot of appeal with the eight and under crowd, just going off assumptions I mean. We haven't really had much time to interact with that demographic.
- Location
- Somewhere on Earth
To be fair, there are some pretty disturbing kids shows out there, I wouldn't put it past some companies.
Also that part was probably a joke, considering there aren't many eight-or-unders on this forum.
I mean, Kakaras basically a magical girl, she:
- Has transformations
- Is a princess
- From space
- Currently powered by the hope of our planet
deadcrystal
Slaaneshi Cultist
- Location
- The Warp
Not his style.
Now, Lord Vegeta would totes do that (If he wasn't Sealed), dude's an gigantic asshole.
Yammar Vegeta? Nah. He might be willing to torture and kill children to put down a rebellion and ensure that one can't recur, but he wouldn't punt the dragon into the Sun after Scion Kakara saved everyone from it and went to such lengths to avoid killing it.
Yammar Vegeta is 100% Lawful Evil. He does horrible things not because of impulse, but because of duty. Or his perception of duty.
There's really nothing to indicate the dragon saw anything but a few minutes of Kakara's surface thoughts, just because he happened to look. (Leading to him arriving a week early)
- Location
- Europe
Are you being purposefully obtuse? Dazarel isn't in a position to share any information with anyone right now since we have to power to shut him up the instant he opens his mouth. One of the reasons why he might not have shared the information during the fight might be due to arrogance. Dazarel seemed liked he relished in beating four saiyans and probably realized that even if he shared Kakara's plot to release Jaffur, Berra would've focused on fighting the world-destroying dragon before dealing with Kakara. After we've chibifyed him, he can fly around and share our secrets with the world and unless we want to babysit him, we can't really prevent that.
However, the secrets are only one part of the infohazard of leaving Dazarel around. Like I said, this is an absolutely ancient dragon that likely has knowledge of techniques that someone might use to defeat an opponent with a greater power-level than himself. Leaving him free to fly around and share that knowledge is dangerous and we know at least one person that would be delighted to have that knowledge at her fingertips and who's likely desperate enough to ally herself with the dragon.
What's Maya doing right now anyway? just milling about in the background looking really confused?
Nix's Warden
Welcome to Hades
- Location
- United States
He gets un sealed I suppose. Probably because there wouldn't be a body left to hold him considering what it would take to kill us.
Or it's decades into the future and he's been befriended and redeemed so we leave it in our will to unseal him.
Plus if we are dead we have bigger issues then Dazarel I think.
I want to put a pretty pink bow on him and present him to our little sister as her new pet.
Citation that this isn't Naruto?
*intentionally misunderstanding*The GM has said we get control of the seal and can prevent the powers of the entity locked inside it from getting out, they haven't said we get control of the powers of the entity itself. We can't use Daz's TK if he's not willing, even if we open the seal partly. And we can't compell him either.
You want to make this claim, you're going to have to back it up
Probably.
And staring at the thousands of ki-using Sorcerers that literally popped out of the woodwork. She's known that Kakara has family, and other ki users.
For the first time, she has some idea of just how many of them there are.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
If the dragon knew the secrets we really don't want found, he would have every reason to use them right now to turn the others against us. Most of his other knowledge is harmless as long as he's kept among saiyans.
...For that matter, if we were worried about the dragon spilling the beans about the conspiracy, we could just give the chibi dragon to Apra to keep for a while! She already knows the conspiracies we're engaged in, and approves, and clearly doesn't want the dragon talking because she's the one who voted for "seal him inside a rock and sink him in the ocean."
It was the (spoilery) origin of the head-dragon vote. It explicitly motivates a significant fraction of the head-dragon voters, without whom the vote would not have a realistic chance of winning. And it continues to be advanced in various forms.
There are other motives for head-sealing the dragon, but most of them don't make sense as motivations for Kakara that predominate her decision.
If she wants the dragon silenced she should seal it in a rice cooker and bury it somewhere a few miles underground, not keep it in her head to learn more secrets while she has to watch it continuously.
If she wants the dragon reformed she should be willing to let it interact with other largely virtuous saiyans.
There are, in turn, counter-reasons for not doing these things and we can chase ourselves round and round about them. But by and large, the only specific motivation that is strongly served by this action for Kakara, that reflects at least a significant fraction of the support for the vote choice, and that cannot be more effectively served by Kakara acting differently... is the gain in power and knowledge from having the dragon inside her head.
My reason for talking about trait evolution isn't because it's the only thing that might go wrong, it's because we can confidently predict that trait evolution is going to happen here. And the single trait most likely to be affected by this decision is the one that so critically influences whether or not the decision even happens: Ambitious.
We don't get access to the dragon's power from this deal unless we make the seal highly permeable and give the dragon access to power, at which point the dragon may simply be able to meat-puppet us because we just unsealed its psychic abilities while it was inside our mind.
[And people are still telling me this isn't about getting a powerup! Sure, it may not be about the power-up for them, but that doesn't mean it isn't about that for everyone...]
I would be well content to rehabilitate the dragon without breaking chibi form. Or saying "well, dragon, YOU were the one that killed a dozen planets, spending centuries in a chibi form is your punishment for that whether you're a nice person now or not." It would hardly be an unfairly heavy penance to pay.
What, for this not being Naruto? Because, um... it's not. The rules are different, there's no reason to expect sealed ancient evils to be tappable for power in this setting as they are in that one.
Or for us not getting control of the dragon's power? Well, we got a fairly detailed explanation of how the seal works, and it included nothing about us being able to access the dragon's power without giving the dragon control over that power.
Given our ability to lock him inside a box in our head and leave him there for the rest of our lives under the head-seal option, why would this NOT be a problem with head-sealing?
I mean, at least if he's a chibi dragon, other people can interact with him when we're too busy to do so for weeks or months at a time. He may be unpopular in doing so, but he could. In theory. As a head-dragon, he's trapped in a featureless prison cell whenever that happens. No way out, no way to even ask Kakara to be allowed to talk to her if Kakara just locks down the seal to block him out.
Why yes, yes I am. How perspicacious of you to notice.
As to the rest of what you said, we have at least one person who we know could take charge of watching the chibi-dragon who already knows our only really damaging secrets and is in fact one of our co-conspirators: Apra. In a few years after the Sealing is undone, that secret becomes irrelevant and we can start dealing with chibi-Dazarel ourself.
Which actually strikes me as a good plan, because we have too much on our plate. I don't want our attempts to reform Dazarel right now to distract us from getting Jaffur un-sealed*. I don't care if he's immediately available or not because we have so many options for researching power-ups and techniques and so much to do that dealing with him isn't actually a priority.
But if it's years before we have time to focus some attention on him, I don't want him spending those years locked inside a bottle in our mind and having time to marinate in that situation.
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*(Or offend Jaffur by having us visit him with a dragon trapped inside a seal the next time we meet him; that's been mentioned before. And I can't remember anyone explaining why Jaffur is likely to be anything other than upset at the idea of people locking the dragon inside a sealing bottle much as he was locked away.)
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- Location
- U.S.A.
While amusing. I think "also being a dragon" is much higher on the magical girl spectrum. Besides, we already have Maya to be our moeblob mascot. No muscling in on best girls turf!I mean, Kakaras basically a magical girl, she:
So all we need is a mascot character to round it out.
- Has transformations
- Is a princess
- From space
- Currently powered by the hope of our planet
Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. There are multiple reasons why he might be holding that close to the chest. On top of that, his techniques i.e. the ones that let him take on four super Saiyan's despite having less PL comparatively. Are also an info hazard. One that is far more likely to get out and cause a problem if he's chibi. Just look at how much of a mess Tabe Staur caused with his little technique.
This doesn't preclude him killing the dragon. He might very well see it as his duty. And, if nothing else, he'll be looking for the smallest legitimate reason to kill Dazarel in that circumstance.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The technique he used to do that is one we already know about, namely "being a psychic." This gives him enhanced telepathy and telekinesis. The thing is, he can't teach it to just anybody, because it's an intrinsic characteristic of Dazarel, not a secret ki technique.
So, uh, should I mention the fact that I've got a sketch of a kind of saiyan sailor moon Kakara then?I mean, Kakaras basically a magical girl, she:
So all we need is a mascot character to round it out.
- Has transformations
- Is a princess
- From space
- Currently powered by the hope of our planet
- Location
- Dual citizen of SV&SB
To those claiming he is an info hazard.. who exactly is going to believe him?
"Hey! I just tried to kill you and everybody you love! The person who defeated me and spoke to your God's personally is plotting something!"
We are far more credible than he is.
"Hey! I just tried to kill you and everybody you love! The person who defeated me and spoke to your God's personally is plotting something!"
We are far more credible than he is.