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Dragon Ball: After the End

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uju32 said:
Because Kakara is already one of the most personally powerful people in Saiyan Society, politically,religiously and punchwise. And she's 13. It's only going to increase as she gets older, and it will worry people. One of the reasons the originals were tolerable was their lack of power-accumulation; Kakara is both politically and religiously active.

Her level of ambition is fine as it is; reinforcing it such that it becomes stronger is a bad idea.
It's already at a level where it's materially influencing her decisions on what should be a matter of law enforcement and real politik; if you don't think that's a worrying sign....

Berra isn't doing his political power project because of personal ambition, but because he feels it's necessary for Saiyan Society to have more central authority. Note how he's largely stayed out of Vegetan affairs.
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See, you say that, but what he's actually done is agreed to removing their Lord and Scion. From his perspective, he's basically set Kakara up to be the undisputed leader of her entire race.
 
argentorum said:
The other thing that doesn't seem to have made it through to the greater thread is that Dazarel was inside out head for a significant period of time before Berra put the defenses up. There is a non-zero chance that he knows about the conspiracy! That is the info hazard and he is the type of person to burn us just because he can if that's the case. Obviously he can't do anything now, because we can stop him from even talking due to PL difference. But once he's sealed that threat doesn't go away unless he still can't tell people about it. Thus, letting him out is not a risk I'm willing to take because of the potential threat it poses to Jaffur
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In which case he'd be yelling it out now in order to distract us while he can still attempt to escape.
Not talking about it when he's sealed and helpless.
He's demonstrably not suicidal. Especially since if your claim is correct, he would know that three of the four Super Saiyan he's facing are in on it.

And no, we haven't been stopping him from talking, just his TK, and we wouldn't know what he's saying until he's said it.
Or telepathed it to Berra and the Sorcerers, just as likely.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
See, you say that, but what he's actually done is agreed to removing their Lord and Scion. From his perspective, he's basically set Kakara up to be the undisputed leader of her entire race.
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That may be the result, but it isn't the aim.
The original point was a unification, remember? And he had no way of predicting any of the bullshit that Kakara has come up with ever since she broke through into Super Saiyan at Jaffur's Sealing. So the picture of him as an ambitious planner doesn't really have that much backing IMO.
 
Hum... Didn't expect to be tempted to vote again.

[x] Seal him in your own head. You will be his prison and his warden, and see what benefits you can gain from having a dragon chained in your body (x1.25, from, "ambitious." Middling harshness, Dazarel is as restricted as the inanimate object version but has you on hand for conversation and interesting experiences, renders him completely harmless, may or may not allow Kakara to exploit him for power).

Because this means we will be interacting with him all the time and I am hoping it will be interesting enough for me to become invested in the quest again. Plus eventually freeing him is the entire point of not killing him here(at least for me since I consider life without parole worse than death) and this option best for that.
 
*Shrug* My stance on this is pretty simple.

I want the Dragon dead, nothing personal about it, it's just an Enemy and I perfer them dead and gone so they can't return one day.

Obviously that isn't happening.

So I'll go for my second choice, since people want to basically play a saint, and remove his ability to ever become an enemy another way. Which is having the genocidal and planet destroying dragon, locked into our head, and beginning an extended Redemption Campaign. If Vegeta is capable of being redeemed, and indeed worshiped as a god, I don't a reason not to extend the chance to the Dragon.

Plus I imagine the commentary is going to be hilarious.
 
uju32 said:
That may be the result, but it isn't the aim.
The original point was a unification, remember? And he had no way of predicting any of the bullshit that Kakara has come up with ever since she broke through into Super Saiyan at Jaffur's Sealing. So the picture of him as an ambitious planner doesn't really have that much backing IMO.
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Oh sure, it wasn't the original intent of the sealing, but it means he doesn't have to involve himself in Vegetan politics because from his perspective they've screwed themselves over in such a way as to set Kakara up as Queen in the future. If the Vegetans weren't in such a state, he'd probably do as much as he could get away with (which might not be a lot, given Vegeta Vegeta, but he'd probably try.)
 
argentorum said:
Um, no. That's not what it means at all. There are multiple valid reasons to chose this mode of sealing. The one you seem to be forgetting is one that the tiny dragon side isn't also using. IE putting him in a rock is equivalent to torture. The headpet side also believes this (or at least several people who've been talking do) but we still think sealing him inside of us isn't more secure without being needlessly cruel.
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I think I maybe misspoke or didn't make myself clear... sorry, that's on me. What I was trying to get at is that none of the auxilliary "reasons for self-sealing" were in the running to be considered the primary reason for our choice, because every other aspect could have been covered by another choice. For example:

argentorum said:
The other thing that doesn't seem to have made it through to the greater thread is that Dazarel was inside out head for a significant period of time before Berra put the defenses up. There is a non-zero chance that he knows about the conspiracy! That is the info hazard and he is the type of person to burn us just because he can if that's the case. Obviously he can't do anything now, because we can stop him from even talking due to PL difference. But once he's sealed that threat doesn't go away unless he still can't tell people about it. Thus, letting him out is not a risk I'm willing to take because of the potential threat it poses to Jaffur
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In this case, you might as well kill Daz now. Because if he really is about to screw us over by revealing our conspiracy, he can do it right now before he is sealed and there's very little we can do to stop him. What's more, now is the perfect time to do so, as he has nothing to loose and it might just create enough chaos to give him a(n infinitesimal) chance to escape, something that definitely won't be true after the sealing.

But even then, I find it highly doubtful that he did get the information about the conspiracy during his mind delve on us, because that seems like the kind of verbal ammunition he would have used to sow chaos in our ranks during the fight.

argentorum said:
And finally. Why are people so against ambition? Yes this move would centralize power, something that Berra has been doing as long as we've been alive. This would be a major boost to that goal. Finally, when it comes to the Saiyan public, we as of this moment have effectively infinite political capital. With this, any backlash or concern will probably come to nothing, especially after we restore Jaffur to full power. I.e. the last thing we would do if we were planning on somehow "taking over".
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And finally, while I can't speak for everybody, it's not that I'm against ambition, it's that I would rather not turn being ambitious into being power hungry. Seeking power to help achieve our goals is okay, seeking power just to have more power just strikes me the wrong way and is definitely not the type of character I'd enjoy playing.
 
@PoptartProdigy - how much are you loving the discussion and rampant paranoia?

I know I'm loving it.

I seriously have to wonder if Dandeer is having a crisis of faith right now - we are basically Satan, as far as she's concerned. We are because we are callous and uncaring, and working directly against the Forces of Good (aka, the Seals). And now, beyond being 'just' a FPSSJ who has discovered a new form (GO for the win!), we have re-invented THE legendary technique of the Gods.

Mid-Battle.

Exactly as the God Goku did, repeatedly. And then we spared our foe, EXACTLY as Goku did, repeatedly.

So now she has to be seeing the parallels and wondering if she's in the wrong...but that would make HER evil. I wonder if she can even conceive that she may have been wrong.
 
Except Kakara has just been seeking power both on it's own and for her grand dreams already.


or at least that how I interpt this "Ambitious: You have grand dreams, and want power some day. You will push yourself to get it"
 
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PoptartProdigy said:
Same post.
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A person capable of temporarily or permanently mind-controlling Kakara to release Dazarel might not also be a person who could do as much physical destruction as the dragon.

In theory, if their only goal was to kill Kakara, then yes, temporary mind control might allow them to do that instead. If they had some other, more complicated goal? I don't know.

ElleonXan said:
Just to clarify: the self-sealing voters are completely fine with what this blatant power grab says about the direction we might possibly take in the future?

Because let's be honest, none of the reasons that've been mentioned for self-sealing in the thread mean a flip... except one. The reason that this choice gets vote weighing.

Because if we were really worried about security and making sure he would never get out, we would just seal him in a rock and hide that rock in a deep dark cave somewhere totally out of the way or in the center of a mountain far far away from anyone. If we were really worried about letting him free after we rehabilitate him, we'd seal him in an easily-torn piece of paper and have the sorcerers conduct his rehabilitation there and then just tear it up when he's been redeemed. If we were really worried about rehabilitating him, we'd give others the opportunity to try to help... because I doubt we'll make much of a dent in that "Might is Right" mindset by ourselves when he is constantly seeing us, the only person mighty enough to stop him, try to tell him that "Might is Right" doesn't work. Heck, if we were really worried that he has already gleaned the secrets of the conspiracy from our minds and would do anything to keep him from revealing them, we'd silence him right this second as he still has a chance right now to blow the whole secret wide open before we have a chance to seal him. And so on and so forth... every stated objective I've seen put forth for sealing him inside us can be taken care of by one of the other options; every objective save one.

Doing this to gain power is the one objective that only this option can do. What's more, it is the only reason that this choice has vote-weighing. And since without the vote weighing this option probably wouldn't win the vote, it must therefore be the driving reason beyond this choice.

But Kakara just pretty much blew the accepted power curve out of the water. For the level of difficulty in our current dragon/aliens situation, she has pretty much already gained an unassailable level of power. Heck, even with just the saiyans donating their power she could probably sneeze and blow the invading alien fleet away. So for her to have the very first decision she makes after gaining this level of power be to reach for More Power?

And remember, this is all Kakara. The sorcerers didn't bring up sealing into a person, much less into us. In fact, it seems like the thought didn't even occur to us until the sorcerers mentioned that any animal it was sealed into would naturally have complete control over the seal without a second set of modifications.

So to summarize my thoughts here: we JUST gained what is, for all intents and purposes at this stage of the game, a practically insurmountable level of power. If the first thing we do after gaining such power is to go off script and propose a plan specifically for the purpose of gaining more power... not to achieve any objective, but simply to have more power? It says some pretty nasty things about Kakara's current mindset and the direction she's heading.

And I'm not saying that choosing this option will immediately evolve our Ambitious trait into something like a Power Hungry trait. I'm just saying that it just seems to me to be a pretty big first step in that direction.
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This. I take it as a certainty that one or more of our relevant traits will evolve after everything that's just happened, just as traits evolved after the debate at Garenhuld II, and after we stopped the nuclear missiles. And here, our motivation is pretty simple: power. After literally mastering the art of 'borrowing' all the power in the world, we absorb the dragon in hopes of gaining power.

The fact that Kakara already has a vote-weighting trait along these lines means that when, not if, this goes to her head... it's going to be pushing at an open door.

For that matter... @PoptartProdigy , how does Kakara herself know that sealing the dragon inside herself would grant her more power? I mean, that information has leaked out into the thread via RP spoilers as far as I can tell. What path explains how Kakara herself knows that this would grant her some sort of increased power, as opposed to just being yet another time-consuming and world-shaking responsibility for her to undertake?
 
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KaintukeeBob said:
I seriously have to wonder if Dandeer is having a crisis of faith right now - we are basically Satan, as far as she's concerned.
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Well, yes. We just convinced everyone to give us power for the spirit bomb.

KaintukeeBob said:
We are because we are callous and uncaring, and working directly against the Forces of Good (aka, the Seals).
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Actually, to her, it is because we first throwed a tantrum and formed and antagonistic opinion of her when she tried to put us in our place, which lead us to actively trying to destroy her and her family. It is more that we don't care for what is good as long as we get what we want rather than us being evil and that we chose her as an enemy. So she probably thinks we are power hungry?
 
Nix's Warden said:
If Vegeta is capable of being redeemed, and indeed worshiped as a god, I don't a reason not to extend the chance to the Dragon.
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Vegeta got that the Catholic way, through works.
And because he grew enough empathy through interacting with multiple other people.
It's kinda hard to do either while stuck in a seal in a person's head.

The rest is your preference.
I vehemently disagree, but I can at least understand why you'd want to kill it.
 
Well, I'm down to clown on having a dragon in our heads.

[X] Seal him in your own head. You will be his prison and his warden, and see what benefits you can gain from having a dragon chained in your body (x1.25, from, "ambitious." Middling harshness, Dazarel is as restricted as the inanimate object version but has you on hand for conversation and interesting experiences, renders him completely harmless, may or may not allow Kakara to exploit him for power).
Adhoc vote count started by OneArmedYeti on Mar 2, 2018 at 2:57 PM, finished with 587 posts and 108 votes.
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Simon_Jester said:
A person capable of temporarily or permanently mind-controlling Kakara to release Dazarel might not also be a person who could do as much physical destruction as the dragon.

In theory, if their only goal was to kill Kakara, then yes, temporary mind control might allow them to do that instead. If they had some other, more complicated goal? I don't know.

This. I take it as a certainty that one or more of our relevant traits will evolve after everything that's just happened, just as traits evolved after the debate at Garenhuld II, and after we stopped the nuclear missiles. And here, our motivation is pretty simple: power. After literally mastering the art of 'borrowing' all the power in the world, we absorb the dragon in hopes of gaining power.

The fact that Kakara already has a vote-weighting trait along these lines means that when, not if, this goes to her head... it's going to be pushing at an open door.

For that matter... @PoptartProdigy, how does Kakara herself know that sealing the dragon inside herself would grant her more power? I mean, that information has leaked out into the thread via RP spoilers as far as I can tell. What path explains how Kakara herself knows that this would grant her some sort of increased power, as opposed to just being yet another time-consuming and world-shaking responsibility for her to undertake?
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Yeah, that's why I changed my vote. If it wasn't for the ambitious weighting to it, I'd be happy to vote it, but I don't want her motivations here to have been tinged by power.
 
Goi said:
Except Kakara has just been seeking power both on it's own and for her grand dreams already.

or at least that how I interpt this "Ambitious: You have grand dreams, and want power some day. You will push yourself to get it"
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See, I read that as "we have grand dreams and aspirations for the future and will push ourselves to accumulate power to achieve our goals." That power isn't our goal, but rather a tool we accumulate to use to achieve our goals.

Accumulating power not to use it but rather just to have accumulated power seems to me to be something different, something I really don't want.
 
Nix's Warden said:
So I'll go for my second choice, since people want to basically play a saint, and remove his ability to ever become an enemy another way. Which is having the genocidal and planet destroying dragon, locked into our head, and beginning an extended Redemption Campaign. If Vegeta is capable of being redeemed, and indeed worshiped as a god, I don't a reason not to extend the chance to the Dragon.

Plus I imagine the commentary is going to be hilarious.
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Uh... you DO realize we can socialize Chibi Dragon too, right? Plus, Chibi Dragon is more likely to actually get socialization if he encounters more than one person, and isn't trapped into a one-on-one relationship with a single other person who is his jailer.

ElleonXan said:
In this case, you might as well kill Daz now. Because if he really is about to screw us over by revealing our conspiracy, he can do it right now before he is sealed and there's very little we can do to stop him. What's more, now is the perfect time to do so, as he has nothing to loose and it might just create enough chaos to give him a(n infinitesimal) chance to escape, something that definitely won't be true after the sealing.

But even then, I find it highly doubtful that he did get the information about the conspiracy during his mind delve on us, because that seems like the kind of verbal ammunition he would have used to sow chaos in our ranks during the fight.
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This. Berra would have instantly been shocked and inclined to turn on us, or at least been less effective, if Dazarel had revealed the conspiracy against him. If the dragon has anywhere near enough subtlety to even comprehend the idea of using the fruits of its mind-reading to political effect, AND had read that information from us, it'd know that.

Either Dazarel doesn't understand why the information is significant, or he never read our mind deeply enough to find out about it since it didn't happen to come up in our surface thoughts during the battle and he was quite busy thank you doing other things.

uju32 said:
Vegeta got that the Catholic way, through works.
And because he grew enough empathy through interacting with multiple other people.
It's kinda hard to do either while stuck in a seal in a person's head.
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This. I mean, Vegeta didn't only interact with Goku. He interacted with Bulma, and with Goku's friends. If he'd been a bodiless passenger trapped helplessly inside Goku's mind the whole time, he might well not have reformed at all.

OneArmedYeti said:
Well, I'm down to clown on having a dragon in our heads.
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Why?

Cariyaga said:
Yeah, that's why I changed my vote. If it wasn't for the ambitious weighting to it, I'd be happy to vote it, but I don't want her motivations here to have been tinged by power.
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I have a lot of respect for that, and I want to keep discussing it, among other things because it hasn't been refuted to my satisfaction.

It's like, I've seen what it looks like when Poptart wants to craft a character sheet that would say to a bunch of quest voters "you have created a badass, but you have massively fucked up in the process." More or less those exact words were used to describe it.

And one of the things that happens is that 'foundation' or at least important underlying traits start to evolve into sinister ones. Ones that have a lot of power that can be used by the character, but that have disturbing side effects or that motivate them to do ambiguous things.

I can easily imagine "Ambitious" evolving in that direction; it's the one thing in Kakara's personality that I think easily has the potential to evolve into something bad. And we're triggering it, hard.
 
Simon_Jester said:
The fact that Kakara already has a vote-weighting trait along these lines means that when, not if, this goes to her head... it's going to be pushing at an open door.

For that matter... @PoptartProdigy, how does Kakara herself know that sealing the dragon inside herself would grant her more power? I mean, that information has leaked out into the thread via RP spoilers as far as I can tell. What path explains how Kakara herself knows that this would grant her some sort of increased power, as opposed to just being yet another time-consuming and world-shaking responsibility for her to undertake?
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Knowledge is power. That alone is reason to get him inside of us, given that it knows things about the galaxy and psychic powers.

The self seal also let's us control it. If he is chibified, there is no way to use his powers without a super ritual tomodify the seal. With self seal, we can actually release him if we think he is reformed, which gives us an extra ally.

Besides... @PoptartProdigy since we would control how much we would let through, could we, in theory, let attempts from him to communicate with other people or use his power outside pass, or does that run counter to the concept of sealing his powers? I think it would let us let him talk to others but I am not sure about the later.

Simon_Jester said:
A person capable of temporarily or permanently mind-controlling Kakara to release Dazarel might not also be a person who could do as much physical destruction as the dragon.

In theory, if their only goal was to kill Kakara, then yes, temporary mind control might allow them to do that instead. If they had some other, more complicated goal? I don't know.
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I think he meant that if someone can mindcontrol Kakara, they probably can do more damage controling her than by releasing a dragon they can't control, at least without dying themselves.
 
[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almost completely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).
 
I have to say I disagree with the idea that exposure to our emotions will meaningfully change his views or opinions. If he was in some way incapable of feeling those emotions I could see that happening, but otherwise if exposure did change his mind it'd read more like brainwashing. I'd prefer to just use actions and words to convince him (which happily enough is valid with both of the leading options, even if Head!Seal limits his interactions by a fair amount).
 
Well, I'm mostly looking to get a dragon in our heads because of the possibility of acquiring something more powerful to fight the invaders with that draw the enemy's eye.

It's also the only way to stop him from communicating with the outside world without locking him in a cell.
 
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