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For the info Hazard it was in out head since some of the arguments were well maybe the dragon has something to counter sealing I have no qualms saying that maybe the dragon read a bit more of our mind than just the surface thoughts so its knows everything Kakara does.

Still I think it really doesn't mater also there is no way to 100% stop the dragon from talking to the humans who we are lying to.

I don't really care for power I just think being inside Kakara is slightly safer as for anything else, I mean sure the optional power but we could probably get it by befriending it enough as a chibi and as for talking I don't hold out much hope for either to work so it doesn't mater to me
 
For the info Hazard it was in out head since some of the arguments were well maybe the dragon has something to counter sealing I have no qualms saying that maybe the dragon read a bit more of our mind than just the surface thoughts so its knows everything Kakara does.

Still I think it really doesn't mater also there is no way to 100% stop the dragon from talking to the humans who we are lying to.

I don't really care for power I just think being inside Kakara is slightly safer as for anything else, I mean sure the optional power but we could probably get it by befriending it enough as a chibi and as for talking I don't hold out much hope for either to work so it doesn't mater to me
What info hazard? the only actual secrets he knows is that Saiyans exist and that we're a seer, for the Saiyan thing we just keep his interactions limited to Saiyans until that cat inevitably gets out of the bag and the fact that we're a seer is not that important tbh.
 
It's less watching her interact with other people and more being let in on her emotions. That's not something he could get so directly as that if he was on his own.
How does that help...anything?
Much as Kakara is special, her emotions in and of themselves are NOT.
And it's not like people are unable to discern what other people's emotions are; it's a skill babies are capable of.
 
What info hazard? the only actual secrets he knows is that Saiyans exist and that we're a seer, for the Saiyans thing we just keep his interactions limited to Saiyans until that cat inevitably gets out of the bag and the fact that we're a seer is not that important tbh.
like I said I was doing the same thing that some people who were for against sealing/Some for chibi were saying oh the dragon most likely has a way to counter the seal so it will fail .

there is no way to tell it did not read our memories so it could know oh I don't know that we plan to break that other seal plus I don't think we will be able to prevent it from talking to Non Saiyans if we go for Chibi
 
But... then we'd have to actively share our innermost thoughts or emotions for it to work. That's super fucking intrusive. No. A thousand times no. If this is actually the plan if head-seal wins, I am 100% against it again.

...? Um. I don't really see the problem here? Why is it an issue to share your emotions?
How does that help...anything?
Much as Kakara is special, her emotions in and of themselves are NOT.
And it's not like people are unable to discern what other people's emotions are; it's a skill babies are capable of.
I wasn't aware that the dragon was an ordinary human baby :p
 
like I said I was doing the same thing that some people who were for against sealing/Some for chibi were saying oh the dragon most likely has a way to counter the seal so it will fail .

there is no way to tell it did not read our memories so it could know oh I don't know that we plan to break that other seal plus I don't think we will be able to prevent it from talking to Non Saiyans if we go for Chibi
It's a chibi dragon who can fly but doesn't have access to psi powers... just place in prison when it's not with us and there shouldn't be any problems.
Plus we have ki sense.
 
I don't really care for power I just think being inside Kakara is slightly safer as for anything else, I mean sure the optional power but we could probably get it by befriending it enough as a chibi and as for talking I don't hold out much hope for either to work so it doesn't mater to me
Safer for who? Safer from who?
If you're accepting WoG that the seal is unbreachable without Genki Dama levels of power, then kidnapping chibi Daz is of no use to any possible enemy.
If an enemy is powerful enough to wield Spirit Saiyan power levels, they don't need him because he isn't a material increase in power.

If on the other hand you're saying that he can be released with lower levels of power via some trickery, then you're implicitly accepting that putting him in Kakara's head is not safe. You can't really have it both ways.

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I wasn't aware that the dragon was an ordinary human baby :p
My point exactly.
He's not a human baby; he's older, with more human experience, and actual experience with going through the insides of people's heads. He can grok emotions just fine.
 
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Safer for who? Safer from who?
If you're accepting WoG that the seal is unbreachable without Genki Dama levels of power, then kidnapping chibi Daz is of no use to any possible enemy.
If an enemy is powerful enough to wield Spirit Saiyan power levels, they don't need him because he isn't a material increase in power.

If on the other hand you're saying that he can be released with lower levels of power via some trickery, then you're implicitly accepting that putting him in Kakara's head is not safe. You can't really have it both ways.
Certainly safer for him :p
 
Just to clarify: the self-sealing voters are completely fine with what this blatant power grab says about the direction we might possibly take in the future?

Because let's be honest, none of the reasons that've been mentioned for self-sealing in the thread mean a flip... except one. The reason that this choice gets vote weighing.

Because if we were really worried about security and making sure he would never get out, we would just seal him in a rock and hide that rock in a deep dark cave somewhere totally out of the way or in the center of a mountain far far away from anyone. If we were really worried about letting him free after we rehabilitate him, we'd seal him in an easily-torn piece of paper and have the sorcerers conduct his rehabilitation there and then just tear it up when he's been redeemed. If we were really worried about rehabilitating him, we'd give others the opportunity to try to help... because I doubt we'll make much of a dent in that "Might is Right" mindset by ourselves when he is constantly seeing us, the only person mighty enough to stop him, try to tell him that "Might is Right" doesn't work. Heck, if we were really worried that he has already gleaned the secrets of the conspiracy from our minds and would do anything to keep him from revealing them, we'd silence him right this second as he still has a chance right now to blow the whole secret wide open before we have a chance to seal him. And so on and so forth... every stated objective I've seen put forth for sealing him inside us can be taken care of by one of the other options; every objective save one.

Doing this to gain power is the one objective that only this option can do. What's more, it is the only reason that this choice has vote-weighing. And since without the vote weighing this option probably wouldn't win the vote, it must therefore be the driving reason beyond this choice.

But Kakara just pretty much blew the accepted power curve out of the water. For the level of difficulty in our current dragon/aliens situation, she has pretty much already gained an unassailable level of power. Heck, even with just the saiyans donating their power she could probably sneeze and blow the invading alien fleet away. So for her to have the very first decision she makes after gaining this level of power be to reach for More Power?

And remember, this is all Kakara. The sorcerers didn't bring up sealing into a person, much less into us. In fact, it seems like the thought didn't even occur to us until the sorcerers mentioned that any animal it was sealed into would naturally have complete control over the seal without a second set of modifications.

So to summarize my thoughts here: we JUST gained what is, for all intents and purposes at this stage of the game, a practically insurmountable level of power. If the first thing we do after gaining such power is to go off script and propose a plan specifically for the purpose of gaining more power... not to achieve any objective, but simply to have more power? It says some pretty nasty things about Kakara's current mindset and the direction she's heading.

And I'm not saying that choosing this option will immediately evolve our Ambitious trait into something like a Power Hungry trait. I'm just saying that it just seems to me to be a pretty big first step in that direction.
 
Safer for who? Safer from who?
If you're accepting WoG that the seal is unbreachable without Genki Dama levels of power, then kidnapping chibi Daz is of no use to any possible enemy.
If an enemy is powerful enough to wield Spirit Saiyan power levels, they don't need him because he isn't a material increase in power.

If on the other hand you're saying that he can be released with lower levels of power via some trickery, then you're implicitly accepting that putting him in Kakara's head is not safe. You can't really have it both ways.
.
Safer for the dragon But it is also slightly and only slightly in case of someone being able to break it through being mega broken at magic of course like WOG says safer is rather relative if there is someone who can just brute force the seal open it really won't matter one way or the other since they are far more dangerores

also safer for anyone to convive it to tell them about us if they found us again it is unlikely it is why I don't really care which of the two wins just the sealing one has in character vote boost
 
Just to clarify: the self-sealing voters are completely fine with what this blatant power grab says about the direction we might possibly take in the future?

Because let's be honest, none of the reasons that've been mentioned for self-sealing in the thread mean a flip... except one. The reason that this choice gets vote weighing.

Because if we were really worried about security and making sure he would never get out, we would just seal him in a rock and hide that rock in a deep dark cave somewhere totally out of the way or in the center of a mountain far far away from anyone. If we were really worried about letting him free after we rehabilitate him, we'd seal him in an easily-torn piece of paper and have the sorcerers conduct his rehabilitation there and then just tear it up when he's been redeemed. If we were really worried about rehabilitating him, we'd give others the opportunity to try to help... because I doubt we'll make much of a dent in that "Might is Right" mindset by ourselves when he is constantly seeing us, the only person mighty enough to stop him, try to tell him that "Might is Right" doesn't work. Heck, if we were really worried that he has already gleaned the secrets of the conspiracy from our minds and would do anything to keep him from revealing them, we'd silence him right this second as he still has a chance right now to blow the whole secret wide open before we have a chance to seal him. And so on and so forth... every stated objective I've seen put forth for sealing him inside us can be taken care of by one of the other options; every objective save one.

Doing this to gain power is the one objective that only this option can do. What's more, it is the only reason that this choice has vote-weighing. And since without the vote weighing this option probably wouldn't win the vote, it must therefore be the driving reason beyond this choice.

But Kakara just pretty much blew the accepted power curve out of the water. For the level of difficulty in our current dragon/aliens situation, she has pretty much already gained an unassailable level of power. Heck, even with just the saiyans donating their power she could probably sneeze and blow the invading alien fleet away. So for her to have the very first decision she makes after gaining this level of power be to reach for More Power?

And remember, this is all Kakara. The sorcerers didn't bring up sealing into a person, much less into us. In fact, it seems like the thought didn't even occur to us until the sorcerers mentioned that any animal it was sealed into would naturally have complete control over the seal without a second set of modifications.

So to summarize my thoughts here: we JUST gained what is, for all intents and purposes at this stage of the game, a practically insurmountable level of power. If the first thing we do after gaining such power is to go off script and propose a plan specifically for the purpose of gaining more power... not to achieve any objective, but simply to have more power? It says some pretty nasty things about Kakara's current mindset and the direction she's heading.

And I'm not saying that choosing this option will immediately evolve our Ambitious trait into something like a Power Hungry trait. I'm just saying that it just seems to me to be a pretty big first step in that direction.
Really hope it won't evolve in power hungry, I'm pretty tired of that mind set from all the Chinese novels I've read recently (don't judge me I just didn't have anything interesting to read lately and I wanted something light), if it does through I don't think we would survive without incidents on that transition since unlike gary stu novels here the npc have a personality.
 
Certainly safer for him :p
And how many Saiyan wanna find out what happens when a dragon dies?
Let alone risk the actual anger of a Spirit Saiyan?
Gold Man Genocide's actions as to what a Lord is capable of when flouted remain in living memory.

And I'm not saying that choosing this option will immediately evolve our Ambitious trait into something like a Power Hungry trait. I'm just saying that it just seems to me to be a pretty big first step in that direction.
Actually another good point I did not consider.

We do know that pivotal actions evolve a character in given directions; when Kakara got into that fight with the Scout Meerak, she gained the trait Cognitive Dissonance, which took a while to lose. And we're already set up to take a decision eventually with regards to Jaffur that will definitely impact our Ambitious trait, and possibly our Reputations.

There are longterm implications in play.
 
Safer for the dragon But it is also slightly and only slightly in case of someone being able to break it through being mega broken at magic of course like WOG says safer is rather relative if there is someone who can just brute force the seal open it really won't matter one way or the other since they are far more dangerores
also safer for anyone to convive it to tell them about us if they found us again it is unlikely it is why I don't really care which of the two wins just the sealing one has in character vote boost
1) There is no evidence of the dragon being at any particular risk at the moment.
Like I said, he hasn't killed anyone on Garenhuld, and he's under Kakara's protection.
There is a reason why Yammur hasn't insisted on killing him, and why Berra and Apsa are proposing sealing instead of death.

2) There are hundreds of thousands of Saiyans on this planet, a lot of them children with insufficient mental defenses, and only the threat of retribution from the greater community preventing abuse. And we have just received evidence of the ability of people to fuck with psionics over interstellar distances.

The idea that the dragon is a bigger infohazard than our sister Fee, for example, or some of the Misfits, or Maya, doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. And we certainly aren't isolating her or them.
 
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...? Um. I don't really see the problem here? Why is it an issue to share your emotions?
On a momentary basis it's not a big deal, but constantly? The argument is that this will somehow be better than putting the Dragon in contact with other people who aren't Kakara and place him in a position of weakness, to learn how it is, and it's because we'll be showing him how we react to things - specifically how we think and feel at pretty much any given moment. That's so intrusive and lacking in privacy, holy shit. It's under our control, but if it's being used often enough to make it a viable alternative to chibi in terms of rehabilitation we'll be using it way beyond what I would be in any way, shape or form comfortable with. Privacy is really important to mental health.
 
I mean either will effect long term relationships with Jaffur exactly which is worse for that I can't really tell

1. WOG might he is that is why the kill him option is there(Yammur that is)

2. Expect the dragon can talk and has no reasons to really care since it kind of hates both the options we are picking. I'm not worried about it breaking the masquerade without meaning to, I think it will mean to break it or it could of you know picked up some information from out head we don't want out unlikely but it was in our head for a while how deep it can go is unknown and not revenant(I hate spelling) exempt if we go with chibi

as for the privacy we will have as much privacy as we want and we can probably allow other people maybe to talk to it or it to hear them at least it probably won't be able to respond
 
1) There is no evidence of the dragon being at any particular risk at the moment.
Like I said, he hasn't killed anyone on Garenhuld, and he's under Kakara's protection.
There is a reason why Yammur hasn't insisted on killing him, and why Berra and Apsa are proposing sealing instead of death.

2) There are hundreds of thousands of Saiyans on this planet, a lot of them children with insufficient mental defenses, and only the threat of retribution from the greater community preventing abuse. And we have just received evidence of the ability of people to fuck with psionics over interstellar distances.

The idea that the dragon is a bigger infohazard than our sister Fee, for example, or some of the Misfits, or Maya, doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. And we certainly aren't isolating her or them.
Plus we would be pretty hypocritical of us as a society to double standard him that much since I don't think Vegeta is that far behind the dragon on the genocidal scale and we venerate him as a god.

Edit: if it wasn't clear I was talking about the sayan murdering him when he is not a risk and didn't kill anyone we know. The scouts at least were combattents who could at least telephatically give information to the invaders if they couldn't escape on their own.
 
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On a momentary basis it's not a big deal, but constantly? The argument is that this will somehow be better than putting the Dragon in contact with other people who aren't Kakara and place him in a position of weakness, to learn how it is, and it's because we'll be showing him how we react to things - specifically how we think and feel at pretty much any given moment. That's so intrusive and lacking in privacy, holy shit. It's under our control, but if it's being used often enough to make it a viable alternative to chibi in terms of rehabilitation we'll be using it way beyond what I would be in any way, shape or form comfortable with. Privacy is really important to mental health.
...I still don't really see the issue here. Maybe I'm just weird. Shrug!

That said! People have made good points about how it might affect her development to go for this option with it winning because of the vote weighting. I don't particularly want her to make a habit of going for power above other considerations, which is what winning by virtue of the Ambitious modifier represents. So:

[X] Seal him in a less imposing physical body, with his powers sealed as well (somewhat harsh, renders him almost completely harmless while still giving him physical freedom. Implement chibi Dazarel).
 
Because let's be honest, none of the reasons that've been mentioned for self-sealing in the thread mean a flip.
Um, no. That's not what it means at all. There are multiple valid reasons to chose this mode of sealing. The one you seem to be forgetting is one that the tiny dragon side isn't also using. IE putting him in a rock is equivalent to torture. The headpet side also believes this (or at least several people who've been talking do) but we still think sealing him inside of us isn't more secure without being needlessly cruel.

The other thing that doesn't seem to have made it through to the greater thread is that Dazarel was inside out head for a significant period of time before Berra put the defenses up. There is a non-zero chance that he knows about the conspiracy! That is the info hazard and he is the type of person to burn us just because he can if that's the case. Obviously he can't do anything now, because we can stop him from even talking due to PL difference. But once he's sealed that threat doesn't go away unless he still can't tell people about it. Thus, letting him out is not a risk I'm willing to take because of the potential threat it poses to Jaffur

And finally. Why are people so against ambition? Yes this move would centralize power, something that Berra has been doing as long as we've been alive. This would be a major boost to that goal. Finally, when it comes to the Saiyan public, we as of this moment have effectively infinite political capital. With this, any backlash or concern will probably come to nothing, especially after we restore Jaffur to full power. I.e. the last thing we would do if we were planning on somehow "taking over".
 
Um, no. That's not what it means at all. There are multiple valid reasons to chose this mode of sealing. The one you seem to be forgetting is one that the tiny dragon side isn't also using. IE putting him in a rock is equivalent to torture. The headpet side also believes this (or at least several people who've been talking do) but we still think sealing him inside of us isn't more secure without being needlessly cruel.
What does this have to do with anything? Sealing him into an inanimate object isn't in the running? The nearest point I can see is that maintining bodily autonomy is obviously less cruel than being reduced to a voice in someone's head, which seems to undermine your position?
And finally. Why are people so against ambition? Yes this move would centralize power, something that Berra has been doing as long as we've been alive. This would be a major boost to that goal. Finally, when it comes to the Saiyan public, we as of this moment have effectively infinite political capital. With this, any backlash or concern will probably come to nothing, especially after we restore Jaffur to full power. I.e. the last thing we would do if we were planning on somehow "taking over".
We only have reason to believe we can squeeze power out of the dragon due to RP spoilers, and those same spoilers imply it's a really shitty power in terms of drawbacks.
 
And finally. Why are people so against ambition? Yes this move would centralize power, something that Berra has been doing as long as we've been alive. This would be a major boost to that goal. Finally, when it comes to the Saiyan public, we as of this moment have effectively infinite political capital. With this, any backlash or concern will probably come to nothing, especially after we restore Jaffur to full power. I.e. the last thing we would do if we were planning on somehow "taking over".
Because Kakara is already one of the most personally powerful people in Saiyan Society, politically,religiously and punchwise. And she's 13. It's only going to increase as she gets older, and it will worry people. One of the reasons the originals were tolerable was their lack of power-accumulation; Kakara is both politically and religiously active.

Her level of ambition is fine as it is; reinforcing it such that it becomes stronger is a bad idea.
It's already at a level where it's materially influencing her decisions on what should be a matter of law enforcement and real politik; if you don't think that's a worrying sign....

Berra isn't doing his political power project because of personal ambition, but because he feels it's necessary for Saiyan Society to have more central authority. Note how he's largely stayed out of Vegetan affairs.
 
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Um, no. That's not what it means at all. There are multiple valid reasons to chose this mode of sealing. The one you seem to be forgetting is one that the tiny dragon side isn't also using. IE putting him in a rock is equivalent to torture. The headpet side also believes this (or at least several people who've been talking do) but we still think sealing him inside of us isn't more secure without being needlessly cruel.

The other thing that doesn't seem to have made it through to the greater thread is that Dazarel was inside out head for a significant period of time before Berra put the defenses up. There is a non-zero chance that he knows about the conspiracy! That is the info hazard and he is the type of person to burn us just because he can if that's the case. Obviously he can't do anything now, because we can stop him from even talking due to PL difference. But once he's sealed that threat doesn't go away unless he still can't tell people about it. Thus, letting him out is not a risk I'm willing to take because of the potential threat it poses to Jaffur

And finally. Why are people so against ambition? Yes this move would centralize power, something that Berra has been doing as long as we've been alive. This would be a major boost to that goal. Finally, when it comes to the Saiyan public, we as of this moment have effectively infinite political capital. With this, any backlash or concern will probably come to nothing, especially after we restore Jaffur to full power. I.e. the last thing we would do if we were planning on somehow "taking over".
It's the possibility that kakara will go all mary sue if she continues on that path, plus the fact that we are doing a morally dubious thing for what could ammount to an extra healing potion in a gdr. Through I admit you made a valid point in saying that the cospiracy secrecy could be at risk. Through I don't think he cared enough to read our entire life story from our mind and now he won't thanks to the seal.
 
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